A thought on the aftermath of Katrina

[CAnnoneer]

Nah, it must be a one-time buy-out. That way, the FedGov protects its citizens against natural disasters, but individual repeated recklessness is not subsidized. As an example, let's mention all the people that have expensive vacation homes right on the Florida beaches facing the hurricanes and are rebuilt from scratch by tax dollars once every two years! :banghead:

 

[Monkeyleg]

If you're going to buy a home or build a business in a particular area, buy insurance that covers the particular threats involved.

Live near a large body of water? Buy flood insurance.

Live where, as here in Wisconsin and other northern states, major snowstorms can cut off electricity or even build up to the point where the weight of the snow can collapse your building? Buy insurance.

Live down in TX or OK, commonly called "tornado alley?" Buy insurance.

Live in California? Buy earthquake insurance, and also buy an umbrella policy for stupid lawmakers.

I can't think of a part of this country that isn't prone to hurricanes, floods, tornados, droughts, sand storms, or other natural disasters.

It's the unnatural disasters in our legislative halls that should cause the most concern.

 

[walking arsenal]

The toilet bowl of Doctor NO.























My wife thinks im funny.

 

[AZLibertarian]

A (not so) small point which some may not know...

The Mississippi isn't supposed to flow through New Orleans. The river "wants" to flow through the Atchafalaya (sp?) which is upstream and flows further west. The Corps of Engineers regularly dumps tons of rock there to keep the river flowing through N.O..

If you're going to give up on N.O. because it's in a bowl and too expensive to rebuild, what are you going to about the river? You can't give up on the shipping.

 

[joab]

let's mention all the people that have expensive vacation homes right on the Florida beaches facing the hurricanes and are rebuilt from scratch by tax dollars once every two years!

I'm missing something here. What taxpayer money is use to rebuild these houses every two years. Where was it last year when my roof came off. Maybe they forgot about me and every body I know because we had the insurance that every lender requires you to have before they give you money to buy the house in the first place.

Of the people I know that recieved FEMA money it was for emergency supplies in the wake of unprecedented storms where people were out of power for extended periods of time, which had never happened before, and for the expenses that came from loosing supplies due to the power being out for an extended perod of time, which had never happened before.
It also helped with the multiple deductibles that people had to pay for every storm repair, which had never happened before

 

[DRZinn]

Completely innocent question: What would it cost to actually fill that bowl up with dirt and raise New Orleans above sea level? More than rebuilding the whole thing again in 20 or 30 - or 5 - years when this happens again?

 

[rwc]

The FEMA "bail-out" is a one time deal. A good buddy's dad got hammered in the ND flood and had to deal with this. However, political pressure may keep them from trying to write-off an entire city.

Speaking of New Orleans, in Italy they say "Venezia."

Seriously, a canal system may be the only viable future for NO, and having been in Venice for "alta aqua" when the tide floods certain parts of the city I can say they have a very interesting coping mechanism. The city workers set up elevated walk ways through the plazas and connecting major travel paths during high tides. It's pretty astounding.

 

[Sindawe]

Seriously, a canal system may be the only viable future for NO, and having been in Venice for "alta aqua" when the tide floods certain parts of the city I can say they have a very interesting coping mechanism. The city workers set up elevated walk ways through the plazas and connecting major travel paths during high tides. It's pretty astounding.

Barring simply not rebuilding the city, this might be the next best option. Canals instead of freeways, leisurely boat rides for Marde Gras instead of drunken near riots. Why, the city could bill itself as the "Venice of the New World". Might even touch off another Renaissance in Western Culture. New revivals and innovations in art, literature, architecture, science and WEAPONS! YEAH!

 

[joab]

Completely innocent question: What would it cost to actually fill that bowl up with dirt and raise New Orleans above sea level?

The bowl is, I believe about 13 ft below sea level. They should have about 5 or so feet of fill from the rubble already and more from dredging the silt from the ports.


I see everybody saying that this will happen again in 50 years.
Anybody know when was the last time NO was destroyed by a natural disaster?

 

[4570Rick]

Sindawe

Lets see.

$250,000 per family
x484,674 the population of NO proper according to 2000 census
= one hundred and twenty one billion, one hundred sixty eight million, five hundred thousand dollars.

Population of the metropolitan New Orleans : 1337726 = $ 334,431,500,000.00

 

[Coronach]

Hawkmoon raises a good point. At what point is land no longer land, but continental shelf? New Orleans, if the pumps fail compeletely and they cannot repair the levee before the water levels equalize, might very well fall under the definition of the latter. And, last I heard, repair efforts on the levee have been halted and the pumps either have or are expected to fail forthwith.

So. Most of it will end up underwater, or is already.

Sounds like an excellent time to pay out flood insurance and declare that it won't be rebuilt. Anyone who wants to go in, build levees around their aquatic parcel, pump it out and rebuild a house is more than welcome to do so- at their own expense.

Is that a not-thought-through, off the cuff response? Yes it is. But I have always thought that actually living in a giant bowl 10 feet below sea level in a hurricane-prone area was just a long term game of Russian Roulette, and this doesn't exactly change that view, you know?

Don't get me wrong. This is a terrible tragedy, but one that could and should have been prevented, somewhat. More robust water-removal systems, levees rated for 10% more water than the largest storm recorded can throw at them, an integrated series of floodwalls, so that the whole city doesn't play RMS Titanic if one levee fails...all of that is just common sense, but is something that costs $$$ and is something that the city refused to do, over the years. Well, every now and then you get no-nonsense indication that you have made a policy error. This is one of those times.

I'm just saddened that so many have had to pay the price, either in dollars or with their lives, for that shortsightedness.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

I see everybody saying that this will happen again in 50 years.
Anybody know when was the last time NO was destroyed by a natural disaster?

The point is, it is semi-random chance. It might not happen again for 3,000 years. Alternatively, the very next storm could plow through and do the same darned thing.

Next millenium. Next week. One or the other, it will happen again.

Mike

 

[joab]

Coronach
Maybe it was poorly worded but it was an actual question

I know that the very nature of the design is flawed, but I could find no history of any devastation other than a couple of fires.

But since this is was the strongest storm ever recorded who's to say that there isn't a cat 7 or maybe even a 10 out there waiting to drown Orlando or eliminate Miami


Maybe they should let the waters recede and build to or near the water's new edge and make a diving attraction out of the flooded portion of the city

I saw an episode of Kolchak, The Nightstaker where there was a city built on top of a destroyed city somewhere, but they had vampires living down there so that wouldn't have made a good tourist attraction

 

[Hugo]

Part of the cause of this mess is that New Orleans, while a beautiful city, has a big reputation for being somewhat corrupt. They did have a few days warning to get ready, the missed a few spots. While I'm sure it varies from block to block and year to year, the corruption probably undermined a lot of emergency planning and prevention including building up the levees more or adding more pumps, or any number of emergency prep programs. I know someone in the Corps of Engineers must have suggested that a decade or so ago but someone ignored them. Plus for decades people in New Orleans have known that the city is waaaay below the floodline, and the huge lake next to it was kind of risky and foolish, but they stayed anyway, and neglected to take many simple precautions. All in all, this really really sucks and hopefully people will learn from it. Also for crying out loud Governors of Louisiana and Mississippi, please use the 4 words really needed to restore order. "Looters will be shot."

 

[roo_ster]

let's mention all the people that have expensive vacation homes right on the Florida beaches facing the hurricanes and are rebuilt from scratch by tax dollars once every two years!

I'm missing something here. What taxpayer money is use to rebuild these houses every two years. Where was it last year when my roof came off. Maybe they forgot about me and every body I know because we had the insurance that every lender requires you to have before they give you money to buy the house in the first place.

Of the people I know that recieved FEMA money it was for emergency supplies in the wake of unprecedented storms where people were out of power for extended periods of time, which had never happened before, and for the expenses that came from loosing supplies due to the power being out for an extended perod of time, which had never happened before.
It also helped with the multiple deductibles that people had to pay for every storm repair, which had never happened before

A large portion of the flood insurance policies written in the US are subsidized by Uncle Sam. This is because:
a. The insurance companies charge more than folks are willing or want to pay, due to the high risk of flooding and payout
OR
b. Due to the fact that some places are so flood-prone that insurance companies won't insure AT ALL without Fed.Gov to, ah, "bail them out."

Federal Governement' s Interest's Insufficiently Protected Given Its Financial Exposure

Repetitive Claims

About 10,000 NFIP insured properties have had either four or more claims in the last 10 years or two or more that total more than the building’s value. One often cited example is an $114,000 house in Houston where NFIP paid 16 claims totaling $800,000 between 1989 and 1995. That house has since been purchased by NFIP, but many other less extreme examples remain. Other homeowners pay higher premiums to cover the costs of these repeat claims.

Un. Effing. Believeable.

NFIP in FLorida

The State of Florida has over 15 million residents and 80 percent of them live or conduct business along or near its coastline. A significant portion of the remaining residents and business live or conduct commerce near many of the state's historical rivers and other inland floodplains. These residents and business are concerned about protecting their lives and property from future flooding. This is evidenced by the fact that 95 percent of all Florida communities participate in the National Flood Insurance Program. As of March 2001, there are over 1,729,200 flood insurance policies in Florida which represents roughly 41% of total policies in effect nationwide. These policies represent $234 Billion of insurance coverage, which is the first line of recovery after a flood disaster.

Holy waterlogged gypsym board, Batman! So, 95% of FL's communities are eligible for subsidized flood insurance.

NFIP in Indiana

National Flood Insurance Program in Indiana
The National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP) is a Federal program enabling property owners in participating communities to purchase flood insurance. Participation in the NFIP is based on an agreement between the local community (County, City, or Town) and the Federal Government. It states that if the community will adopt and enforce certain floodplain management regulations to ensure safe development of flood prone areas, the Federal Government will make flood insurance available within the community as a financial protection against flood losses. In Indiana, there are approximately 390 cities, towns, and counties that voluntarily participate in the NFIP. To view the complete list of communities in Indiana that participate in the NFIP, visit FEMA's web site. The Indiana Department of Natural Resources (DNR), Division of Water, is the State Coordinating Agency for the NFIP. The Division of Water's Floodplain Management Section is responsible for providing technical assistance to local communities in implementing their floodplain management regulations. Staff members review communities' regulations and recent floodplain development to ensure compliance with the program and provide reports of their findings to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). The Division of Water also assists private citizens requesting information on floodplain management regulations. For more information on the NFIP, go to FEMA's NFIP web site.

 

[popeye]

I used to live by the Little Calumet River in Illiinois. In '80 we had some really weird weather. In April we got about a foot of rain in a 72 hr. period. The result was the river turned from a 20 ft. stream to about 3/4 of a mile. I lucked out as I was far enough from the river it just stopped at my front door. They called it the 100 yr. rain/flood. People got low interest gov. loans and rebuilt. Dec. of that SAME year Another 100 year rain/flood. A lot of people just filed bankruptcy and left their sludge filled frame houses for the wrecker. Most of the effected homes were built around '55. As it turns out the Army Corps. did a survey in 1950 that stated "don't ever build in this area, it,s a fjood plain" My point is if they're gonna rebuild N.O. they better do some careful planning. They're predicting the recent spate of one storm after another is a pattern that's gonna continue for years. Of course I brlieve everything I see on T.V..

 

[joab]

I see your point

If you pay back all the money that has been spent on your behalf through the subsidized farm programs and oil subsidies I'll pay back all the insurance money that the govt has spent on me through insurance subsidies.

But then again I do that every April 15th

 

[Art Eatman]

Excerpt from the NO Times-Picayune, from another Board

"New Orleans had long known it was highly vulnerable to flooding and a direct hit from a hurricane. In fact, the federal government has been working with state and local officials in the region since the late 1960s on major hurricane and flood relief efforts. When flooding from a massive rainstorm in May 1995 killed six people, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA.

Over the next 10 years, the Army Corps of Engineers, tasked with carrying out SELA, spent $430 million on shoring up levees and building pumping stations, with $50 million in local aid. But at least $250 million in crucial projects remained, even as hurricane activity in the Atlantic Basin increased dramatically and the levees surrounding New Orleans continued to subside.

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars."
______

Which says we've spent a ton of national tax-dollars on the place already, just getting it up to protection from a Category 3 storm.

Philosophic point: See what happens when a state won't protect its major source of income, but instead relies on the feds?

Note that the work which would have been done with the money which wasn't budgeted still would not have prevented the Ponchartrain levee break? (Consider the many miles of total levee system, and that several more years' worth of work are needed.) And, when there's no electricity, how do the pumps operate? Etc., etc.

Art