A very small test

[deadhawg]

I got a good deal on some Berry's plated 124 gr 9mm HP's, and had some empty 1 gallon water jugs around, so I decided to do a little test for expansion.
Loaded the Berry's over 3.7 gr of bullseye and a cci primer. I filled six of the plastic jugs with water, lined them up and fired one round from about 15 feet from my PM9. Holy Penetration! the bullet went through all six jugs, with just a a slight split in the first jug, and a 9mm hole in the rest, and the exit hole from the last one looked smaller than the .355 the bullet started out as. Couldn't find the bullet in the soft dirt backstop. Took seven more jugs, lined them up, with a box of old phone books behind them and fired another round. This time I found the bullet in the seventh jug, with virtually no expansion, only rifling marks.

Just for comparison, I lined up my last 5 jugs and fired one round of my carry ammo, federal 124 gr HST. The first jug split wide open, front and back. I found the bullet in the fifth jug, with the classic HST "flower" I have seen in other pics here.

I will continue to use the Berry's for practice,but there is no question about what my carry ammo will be!

 

[zxcvbob]

I bought some of those, and they won't feed in my BHP (so I load them in .38 Special cases for my Marlin.) I use the 125 grain .357 version of that bullet for .38 Special target load because they are even more accurate than wadcutters -- and they cut nice clean holes in paper.

I always assumed they would fragment instead of expand, but the hollow point gives them a larger bearing surface for the same grain weight compared to a flat-nosed bullet.

 

[ants]

Good test, deadhawg. I fired hundreds of Berry's plated bullets into stacks of newspaper and books, and they deformed less than jacketed bullets. But when I posted it on this Forum, I got contradicted and shouted down like I'm an idiot. I can truly relate to the pictures comparing the two bullets.

 

[Steve C]

With basic HP bullets its generally assumed that you need at least 1K fps at the muzzle to get expansion. Run hp's below 1000 fps at the muzzle and it unlikely you will see any expansion. The Fed HST's standard pressure should be around 1,150 fps which along with their design is the main reason they expand so nicely.

Your load velocity should be well below 1,000 fps, probably around 900 fps or so with 3.7grs of BE. You're well below the maximum BE load for 124gr lead or jacketed at 1,165 fps that Alliant lists in the old data (2000) as 4.9grs for lead and jacketed and new data at 4.4grs (w/ Speer 124gr GD's).

Bump your charge up by at least .5 grs to get your velocity at over 1K fps and you'll be more likely see some expansion.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I'm with you ants. I use Rainier plated HP 124 grain for practice in my 9mm X 19 and 185 grain plated HP in my .45 ACP. And not to start a bullet war, but I'm running them over 1,000 fps in both handguns and see little or no expantion. Where as, my matching fps Federal Hydra-shoks open up just fine...

 

[snuffy]

This time I found the bullet in the seventh jug, with virtually no expansion, only rifling marks.

That's because it wasn't "MADE" to expand. A jacketed HP has striations, Or cuts, or "skiving on the inside of the hollow point, put there before it's formed to it's final shape. That's why they expand. Whatever enters the HP when it hits starts the expansion.

A plated bullet starts as a swagged lead slug. It's final shape is determined at that time. For those HP's, the dent in the front is swagged in, then it is plated over without any weakening of the plating to initiate expansion. I doubt they would expand even at 357 sig of 38 super velocities.

 

[rcmodel]

They might expand, but they won't with 3.7 of Bullseye behind them.
As Steve C said, you are lucky to be getting 900 FPS out of that load.

BTW: Bullseye is not a good powder to get maximum performance out of the 9mm. Pressure gets to high while the velocity is still too low.

rcmodel

 

[Walkalong]

Those Berrys are not designed to expand. They are good cheap practice bullets, although their .356 124 Gr HP can be a bit finicky feeding.

Whoops, I see snuffy beat me to it.

 

[deadhawg]

With basic HP bullets its generally assumed that you need at least 1K fps at the muzzle to get expansion. Run hp's below 1000 fps at the muzzle and it unlikely you will see any expansion. The Fed HST's standard pressure should be around 1,150 fps which along with their design is the main reason they expand so nicely.

Your load velocity should be well below 1,000 fps, probably around 900 fps or so with 3.7grs of BE. You're well below the maximum BE load for 124gr lead or jacketed at 1,165 fps that Alliant lists in the old data (2000) as 4.9grs for lead and jacketed and new data at 4.4grs (w/ Speer 124gr GD's).

Bump your charge up by at least .5 grs to get your velocity at over 1K fps and you'll be more likely see some expansion.

I agree with all of that, and while I don't plan on using the Berry's for anything other than mild practice rounds, I just may load up some hotter just for fun.

 

[hoptob]

Deadhawg,

It's a great test and results are very clear. Berry uses 3% antimony alloy for their plated bullets. It's rather hard and brittle; not sure if these bullets will expand or just disintegrate after impact at higher velocities.

I guess I am not sure what is the reason why you are worried about Berry's expansion characteristics. Are you considering building SD carry handloads with plated bullets?

Mike

 

[deadhawg]

I guess I am not sure what is the reason why you are worried about Berry's expansion characteristics. Are you considering building SD carry handloads with plated bullets?

I'm not worried about berry's expansion, and I don't plan on using them for SD, I was just wondering what they would do. Too much time on my hands maybe, and like the guys on the box 'o truth say, shooting stuff is fun! No other reason.

 

[hoptob]

 

[Sport45]

Why would a bullet maker put out a hollow point if they didn't expect it to expand at some velocity?

The only use for it that I can see otherwise is if they were an exact match in dimensions to a premium HP so that you could check feed reliability.

 

[snuffy]

Why would a bullet maker put out a hollow point if they didn't expect it to expand at some velocity?

Simple. They sell better. That don't mean they have to work like a HP. Half the looks of a fishing lure is to catch the fisherman. Those bullets "look" mean so the loader will buy them.

You could make them expand, by making a die that would cut the plating inside and outside of the HP. That would provide a weak spot for the soft lead underneath to disrupt and expand.

Berry uses 3% antimony alloy for their plated bullets. It's rather hard and brittle; not sure if these bullets will expand or just disintegrate after impact at higher velocities.

The basic slug that's then plated with copper, is swagged. You can't swage lead that has antimony in it, it won't form well. Another thing, antimony HAS to have tin along with it to remain homogeneous,(stay mixed). Then it would be impossible to swage,(cold form), the basic slug, too hard.

 

[hoptob]

Snuffy,

Can't comment on swagging but 3% antimony is what Berry support told me when I asked them.

Mike