??? about weighing & sorting brass ???

[magnatecman]

So I have been told to really help in getting accuracy that I need to weigh my brass. I have been doing this and then simply lining them up in order from lightest to heaviest in my shell boxes. Then when I load'em up I start with the lightest and work my way up.

My question is how much variance is considered tolerable?

Right now I have weighed 125 rounds of .270 win and the lightest comes in at 192.9 grains and the heaviest is 198.6 grains - these are R P.

FWIW this is after sizing ,trimming & tumbling too.

I usually load in groups of 5 when working up loads, should I only use brass in each group that weigh exactly the same??? Or is a grain or two going to make any difference???

Any info from a master reloader would be really appreciated.

Any info from anyone with experience with this would be really appreciated too.

 

[dawico]

Get them as close as you feel is needed. I load with a couple of tenths difference with the same technique as you. There are other things far more important for accuracy, such as neck thickness and bullet tension.

 

[fguffey]

head stamp first then weight

Weighing brass and sorting, First I sort by head stamp: rational, I sort cases in groups of 20 as in 2 X 10 per box for the sole purpose of sorting after firing and then tumbling, for sorting and separating there is no better advantage than the one offered by 30 + different head stamps for the L.C. 30/06, then there is TW, SL, etc., etc..

Sorting commercial cases when they are purchases in bags of 50 or 100, after firing and loading cases in groups, sorting after tumbling becomes a mindless task.

then there is the loading on a progressive press, the loader should know the weight of the components, primer, powder, case and bullet, total weight would = the loaded round, if the loader does not know the weight of the case and the weight of the case is not known there is no way for the loader to randomly check the weight of the loaded round.

As indicated the OP says there is 6 grains difference between the heavest and lightst case, after loading 200 rounds the loader checks the total weight of 20 cases and finds 6 grains difference, rhe rloader must determine if the 6 grains is powder, bullet or case, though 6 grains is not a big difference the heavier case will have less volumn.

F. Guffey

 

[Hondo 60]

You're getting into the grey area.

How much difference is too much?
That's the proverbial $64,000 question.

 

[twofifty]

Magna, you may be making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Sorting cases is lots of boring work as you've no doubt noticed. But it doesn't end there: once you're done sorting, good luck on keeping these cases in the 'right' order, before and after firing. You will spend more time tracking your brass than reloading and shooting. Eventually, things will get mixed up and that batch of cases will end up in the same bin....

It is natural, when starting out, to want to measure everything. I did the same. After a while, you will come to see that none of the components are identical. There are many many dimension and weight variables.

What you need to do is gradually figure out which details actually matter. These usually include:

- safe & organized load development practices with the listed components (per manual);
- case inspection for damage (necks can crack and bases might separate, so get rid of cases after 'x' no. of times reloaded);
- case length & trimming (too long is dangerous);
- primers below flush (for safety and reliable ignition);
- bullet seating depth (not too shallow, not too far out; done right is sure to help accuracy);
- COL (for feeding efficiency);
- notetaking (saves time and resources)

I believe that few here, except for some - but not all - of the benchresters, bother with sorting cases or super-detailing primer pockets and case necks.

Once you get comfortable and understand which variations play little to no role in practical accuracy, you may be tempted to simplify thereby freeing up time for shooting and hunting. That is when you win Hondo's $64,000 prize.

Good luck.

 

[winchester1886]

I'm no expert I'm just a hunter,but I weight every round. If the brass is lighter and thinner then with a given powder charge the pressure should be less. If that is so then each round of brass needs to be as close in weight as possible. I buy Remington bulk most of the time and the weight varies. I like them to be within a few tenths.

 

[Walkalong]

If you, your rifle, and your load can show the difference, do it. Most out of the box rifles will never notice the difference unless the brass you have is horribly inconsistent.

 

[cfullgraf]

For the small volume shooter, sorting brass by weight may be an expense in time with little rewards. Weighing cases to eliminate extra heavy and extra light would probably be worth while. Save the extreme weight cases for practice.

The less variability in case weight, potentially, the better. The smaller the variability wanted, the more cases that have to be weighted.

For me, I dabbled with weighing cases for a while and did not see any difference. But that is me.

I am sure the bench rest community and the military snipers benefit from production lots of ammunition with minimal case weight variation. I am not sure the average shooter would see benefits.

But, if you enjoy doing the exercise, then you will have more confidence in your reloads and you will shoot better.

 

[magnatecman]

Twofifty said,

"What you need to do is gradually figure out which details actually matter."

This is the reason for the question, I have been doing just as you described and while I have an occasional ES variation that I can not explain, it does not seem to matter at 100 yards. My rifle will pretty consistently shoot between 3/8" to 3/4" - 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

Sometimes I'll have 3 in a 1/4" and then 2 will go in one hole, but 1 1/2" out of the other 3

My concern is what does that translate to at say 600 yards?

I mostly hunt and I am just getting interested in long range targets mostly for practice for hunting situations than for competition.

Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[Funshooter45]

I keep my brass separated according to the manufacturer. That is easy to do and it keeps those breeds pure. I don't want any interbreeding between my Hornady and Federal brass. As for weighing, I've done it a few times, mostly when I was just bored or curious to see which brand had the most variation. I didn't notice any big improvements by doing that though. But my loads are typically not close to the max. It might make a difference if you are routinely loading pretty hot stuff.

 

[Walkalong]

My rifle will pretty consistently shoot between 3/8" to 3/4" - 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

You don't have a problem.

Sometimes I'll have 3 in a 1/4" and then 2 will go in one hole, but 1 1/2" out of the other 3

Normal. Welcome to trying to get them all in one hole.

 

[James2]

Any info from a master reloader would be really appreciated.

Any info from anyone with experience with this would be really appreciated too.

What is a master reloader?

I do have some experience in this and decided for what I do it is not worth the effort to weigh brass. Sort by headstamp.

 

[Grumulkin]

I doubt very much, with the possible exception of a very accurate bench rest rifle, that you would be able to tell the difference accuracy wise between cartridges with the same head stamp sorted according to weight and those not sorted. Remember, you are assuming that a lighter case will have a greater volume so you are indirectly measuring volume. A case that is a little longer in the neck than another will weigh a bit more with no change in internal volume.

 

[wanderinwalker]

That's a 3% difference high to low. As a guess I'm going to assume most of the cases fall around 195-196 grains. What do the numbers look like over the chronograph? If you're looking at an SD in the teens or so, I wouldn't worry about the variation in case weight.

Shooting three rounds into one group and then 2 more into another group doesn't sound like a load issue, it's pressure on the rifle somewhere if the rifle will shoot 3/4" for 5 shots other wise.

 

[fguffey]

When it comes to said and done it would appear...or I should say when it comes to reloaders there is more said than done, without a way to sort brass after firing and tumbling how does a reloader determine the number of times a case has been fired, sorting is a discipline, me? If I hate to do it, I don't.

The story always starts with "I fire my cases and neck size only until they are fully grown?? and then I start over by full length them to minimum length" and then there is that spring back thing. I fire a case once it is fired once if I fire the case 5 times I find it impossibly to start over, and if the reloader does not sort and if they sort with out a method of identifying cases in groups after tumbling how do they get cases back together.

I take as many as 10 rifles to the range at a time, 20 rounds each is 10 boxes with different head stamps, cases always go back in the same box.

F. Guffey

 

[kelbro]

I believe that if you are trying to eek out that last little bit of accuracy, then consistency is a factor. While a lot of guns (and even more shooters) will not be able to detect that difference, it is control of the variables that you CAN control that will achieve tighter groups.

Bottom line, it can't hurt!

 

[Walkalong]

Absolutely.

 

[243winxb]

Case weight variations and accuracy

A chamber has a volume. This volume runs from the bolt face to where the bullet seals the bore. Any time a different weight is put in the volume, pressure changes. I did a simple 1 time test using 100 win new brass , 243 win caliber in my Rem 40x. Brass seperated by 1/10 gr. I took 5 heavest, and 5 lightest. Shot groups with each. Then took 3 heavy & 2 light shot group. Then took 3 light & 2 heavy shot group. You could see the difference. It pays to weigh brass for an accurate rifle IMO. My log shows the test was done in 1998. Targets had group data, but trashed them last year. Did find the brass weight, Winchester high 170.9 gr-166.5gr low. Currently using some Remington high 166.6gr- 161.0gr low. Any variable you can control is worth doing if you want to shoot smaller groups. High power scopes help, along with Redding FLRS Type S Bushing Dies.

 

[Whiskey11]

Maybe it's because I'm new at reloading but I do know some about metallurgy. Weighing a case is going to separate by case weight only and not volume. It is a pretty heavy assumption that lighter means more volume, heavier means less. All materials can have areas of high and low density that may not have anything to do with the actual volume of the case but can change the weight of the case.

If I was obsessed with accuracy (getting there) I'd measure the volume using water long before I measured weight as a datum point. Sorting by volume will help with keeping pressure consistent in each round as it is fired assuming that all other variables are held constant. Good thing I'm working up loads and don't really care that much about measuring volume beyond determining what is my max powder load to keep the pressures safe.

 

[Blackrock]

Even for my type of Varmint shooting I don't mess with weight sorting my brass. I do keep mfgrs brass seperate but don't change my loads even for that. I have Remington, Winchester and some Hornady brass and can't tell the difference in the field.

I did have a perfect three shot group the other day - until I pulled the trigger for the second time. LOL

 

[USSR]

Maybe it's because I'm new at reloading but I do know some about metallurgy. Weighing a case is going to separate by case weight only and not volume. It is a pretty heavy assumption that lighter means more volume, heavier means less. All materials can have areas of high and low density that may not have anything to do with the actual volume of the case but can change the weight of the case.

Well, the variance in metal density would definately not cause the wide variance that can be found in brass from the same manufacturer. Fractions of a grain perhaps, but certainly not the several grains or more that are commonly found. And, since the outside dimensions and length are set to the same dimensions thru resizing and case trimming, the only place for the variance in brass dimensions to go to is to the inside dimensions. Measuring the volume with water will confirm the correlation between case weight and case capacity.

Don

 

[brickeyee]

Weighing a case is going to separate by case weight only and not volume.

If the exterior dimensions are the same, a heavier case MUST have a lower internal volume.

Using water to measure the volume of every case would be painfully slow.

Unless you have a rifle that consistently groups under 0.2 inch at 100 yards you are wasting your time.

 

[wy child]

ok here is a point that I haven't seen here yet, different case manufacturers have different wall thickness. the thicker the case the smaller the volume. I you mix manufacturers cases you will get different pressures Military brass has a thick case so does Lapua. Winchester and FC are thicker then RP. if you are looking at accuracy the use the same mfg cases and
measure the volume of the case. These are only a small part of building an accurate cartridge.

If I can't eat, shoot it or make love to it, I am not interested.

 

[magnatecman]

A chamber has a volume. This volume runs from the bolt face to where the bullet seals the bore. Any time a different weight is put in the volume, pressure changes. I did a simple 1 time test using 100 win new brass , 243 win caliber in my Rem 40x. Brass seperated by 1/10 gr. I took 5 heavest, and 5 lightest. Shot groups with each. Then took 3 heavy & 2 light shot group. Then took 3 light & 2 heavy shot group. You could see the difference. It pays to weigh brass for an accurate rifle IMO. My log shows the test was done in 1998. Targets had group data, but trashed them last year. Did find the brass weight, Winchester high 170.9 gr-166.5gr low. Currently using some Remington high 166.6gr- 161.0gr low. Any variable you can control is worth doing if you want to shoot smaller groups. High power scopes help, along with Redding FLRS Type S Bushing Dies.

This is the kind of info I was hoping to see, I just wish I could see a target that shows the difference. I may have to try that test myself.

 

[kelbro]

Weighing cases is just another screen. Not 100% foolproof. I have been shooting groups and when unexplained fliers occur, I marked the cases. When I got home, I would weigh the case and measure the water capacity along with a couple that were 'in the group'. Most of the time, that case had some weight/volume difference + or -. The lower volume cases were always heavier (empty) and the higher volume cases were always lighter. This provided me with enough confidence in my case weighing procedure to avoid filling each case up with distilled water.

The only time that I go through the trouble of measuring the water volume these days is to fill in that field on QuickLoad.