"Accidental Discharge" in area school

[Sportcat]

Story Update

http://www.thecarolinachannel.com/news/4480261/detail.html

Gun That Discharged Is Standard Weapon For Officers
Trigger-Located Safety Means Gun Is Easy To Prepare To Fire

POSTED: 9:14 am EDT May 12, 2005
UPDATED: 9:45 am EDT May 12, 2005

The gun that accidentally discharged in an Anderson County school Wednesday was a 40-caliber Glock, the weapon of choice by about 65 percent of law enforcement officers across the country.

A firearms expert said that the major advantage of the weapon --- its ease of firing -- can also be considered a danger.

"If you put your finger on the trigger and you pull the trigger, it is going to go off," said Capt. Matt Culbreath, of the Clemson Police Department.

Culbreath is a firearms instructor at the Criminal Justice Academy.

"It's very reliable and that's the key to any weapon that a law enforcement officer carries," he said. "But any weapon can be dangerous if it's not handled properly."

The Clemson and the Clinton Police Departments are among the law enforcement agencies that have switched to a gun holster that makes it more difficult to access a weapon. Both departments have had Glocks go off accidentally previously.

Culbreath said there is no traditional safety on the Glock's trigger mechanism. He said if there were, it would create a delay in firing the weapon.

"If this weapon had an external safety -- either a de-cocker or a safety -- it would be right here, so you'd have to manipulate it with your thumb before the weapon would fire," said Culbreath.

Culbreath said most officers -- when faced with an emergency -- need the speed of the Glock.

The weapon does have two safety mechanisms. One keeps the gun from firing when dropped. The other keeps it from accidentally discharging if the trigger is not completely engaged.

 

[BenW]

Like Shermacman, I'm too old to have ever interacted with a school "resource officer" while in school.

I'm curious -- based on above posts, these resource officers are part of "regular" law enforcement (Sheriff, State, what have you). I wonder if these people are real LEO, i.e., having gone through an academy or other formal training and spent time on the beat, or are they "two week course" security guards that are simply given LEO credentials so they can be armed in schools (sort of like Feinstein and her Marshall's badge)?

"I'm the only one in this room professional enought hat I know of to carry this glock .40."

Funny, one of my many collateral duties in the fed office where I work is that of safety and security. I had a Homeland Security Officer come by this week to give a talk on "personal safety and security for employees". Part of his Powerpoint was talking about ways to defend yourself (OC, car keys, Tasers, firearms, etc). During this portion, he played a movie that was -- you guessed it -- the Tampa DEA agent shooting himself in the foot. I thought it was both funny and smart (in the sense of showing that "professional" is relative) that other LEOs are using him as an example of bad gun handling.

 

[Glocker]

I agree with Master Blaster, the kid should have never been allowed to touch the gun. just yesterday as i was working my post as a armed guard a young boy ( 8 or 9 ) came up to me and asked if i had a gun, which is usally covered by my right arm. I said " why yes i do " and he then asked to see it. I moved my right arm a little so he could see the gun, his mom and dad thought it was neat to see there son and someone in uniform talking,and that someone took an interest in there sons questions. As he saw the gun he went " Cool". then he asked other questions and i answered them, mom and dad happy at this point. then the younster asked if he could touch my gun ( in the holster ) at that point i said "no, you may not." in a nice way with out hurting the young boys feeling. the Mom and Dad at that point came un-glued, they said i was been mean to not let him touch the gun,"what was he going to do take it out and shoot someone". and they left the store quickly ( mad at me ) can you believe that? I'm sorry but I'm not going to let a kid or anyone else touch my weapon, that is not safe.

 

[middy]

It's funny how the Glock-haters display exactly the same mentality as the gun-grabbers when the opportunity arises; blaming the tool instead of the fool.

 

[Model520Fan]

What double-action service revolver has been involved in as MANY ND's as Glocks have?

S&W Model 10, of course, for almost exactly the same reason - they are both reliable guns, and therefore very popular. Certainly, there is a bit of difference in their sensitivity to handling, but the real reason for ND's lies in the people handling them.

It's funny how the Glock-haters display exactly the same mentality as the gun-grabbers when the opportunity arises; blaming the tool instead of the fool.

"Not I," said the little red hen. Despite the above, I am a Glock-hater, because the 9mm is a good reliable gun that doesn't fit my hand and is made out of (yeccch) plastic.

However, I feel that your comment is justified.

 

[Yowza]

BenW

The school resource officers here in South Carolina are indeed "real cops." I have a friend who is a Lexington County Deputy who is a resource officer and a very good cop. He is ex-military, previously was on the City of Columbia Police Force and currently does some additional work with the drug interdiction unit in Lexington County as well as the resource officer role.

Rick

 

[stevelyn]

All of you jumping into the Glock slamfest are missing the point here and blaming the tool rather than the tool carrying it.
The real point is that this idiot demonstrated poor judgement and would be dangerous regardless what he is carrying in his holster.

 

[duckslayer]

We didn't have the internet to propagate stories of this nature when people routinely carried DAO revolvers. It wouldn't surprise me that there were a lot of NDs back then that no one heard of simply because the media wasn't available at the time to share the information.

And I agree with the comment..."blame the fool not the tool."

 

[svtruth]

Guns in School

In addition to the DEA agent referenced above, there was a story a couple mos ago about a School Resource Officer who "lost" her handgun. She put it on top of a cabinet in the Nurse's office to weigh herself. A student later found it, right where she had left it.

 

[PrudentGT]

We didn't have the internet to propagate stories of this nature when people routinely carried DAO revolvers. It wouldn't surprise me that there were a lot of NDs back then that no one heard of simply because the media wasn't available at the time to share the information.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

Maybe people would be happy if 'school resource officers' carried 'Glock foty's' with the special 'trigger removed' modification...

 

[nico]

It's funny how the Glock-haters display exactly the same mentality as the gun-grabbers when the opportunity arises; blaming the tool instead of the fool.

quoted because some people here need to read it again

 

[Tory]

Speaking of misplaced blame...

"Both departments have had Glocks go off accidentally previously."

Sounds like a training issue - as in, lack of same.

"Culbreath said there is no traditional safety on the Glock's trigger mechanism. He said if there were, it would create a delay in firing the weapon."

Yeah, those IPSC and IDPA shooters using 1911's are really crippled by the difficulty of disengaging the thumb safety..

" 'If this weapon had an external safety -- either a de-cocker or a safety -- it would be right here, so you'd have to manipulate it with your thumb before the weapon would fire,' said Culbreath."

And this creates a crisis HOW?


It is, of course, true that the real cause of any ND is NEGLIGENCE, which is a human defect, not a mechanical one. That said, does anyone truly believe this could have happened with any pistol that has a manual safety?

The problem with designing a tool any cretin CAN use, is that any cretin WILL.

 

[ScottsGT]

The gun never left the holster, said Busha.

This is what I question. Wasn't the holster covering the trigger??
I think we need to start bashing the holster and not the Block, excuse me, Glock Is there a defect in the holster design that would cause something to come into contact with the trigger if the gun was twisted or moved around in the holster?

 

[centac]

"That said, does anyone truly believe this could have happened with any pistol that has a manual safety?"

Yes

Negligence isnt brand specific.

As soon as something is foolproof, some idiot gets ahold of it......

 

[DarkKnight01]

Im the only one in this room dat I know of thats profeshinow enuf dat I know of dat carrys a glock foddy.....

Hmm the DEA agent got canned.... got a job as school security guard and even screwed that up... and did he call this one an AD again? or an ND like it should be.... sounds like the same guy to me, who else would be ignorant enough to let a kid try to pull a loaded weapon out of their holster??? and it sounds like he nearly shot himself in the other foot this time...... this guy should really just stay away from guns ROFL...

But probably not the same guy....

 

[Cosmoline]

If a non-LEO did this, he'd be facing charges of reckless endangerment and criminal mischief at the very least. One law for us, another for them. We're sheep, they're wolves. Welcome to Amerika.

 

[Old Fuff]

Back when S&W and Ruger double-action revolvers were the rule rather then the exception in law enforcement circles there were accidental (I'd say "negligent") discharges, but for reasons that were not particularly related to the Glock pistol, which is a different animal.

Concerning revolvers, the most common reason was that somebody cocked the gun when they shouldn't have and the trigger pull went from a long 10 to 13 pound stroke to a short 3 to 3 1/2 pound one. When the officer was under stress it's easy to understand what happened. The next most common problem was failing to completely unload the cylinder, and then start practicing one's fast draw ...

At the time many holsters were designed to expose the trigger guard and trigger. If the hammer wasn't secured with a strap it's obvious what could happen ... and did.

If the facts in the article(s) are true and complete, I would also wonder about the holster. If the student in question had small hands and fingers and the trigger guard wasn't completely covered I can see how this incident could have happened.

Frankly, if I were carrying a Glock in a school setting I would take the chance and keep the chamber empty. If one is practiced the slide can be quickly cycled during the draw. My worry would be more centered around the security of the holster rather then the pistol. Too many departments buy holsters on the basis of who is the lowest bidder, not who makes the safest rig.

 

[Jeff White]

First off, the officer should never have allowed the child to touch his weapon. I understand wanting to be friendly with the kids and satisfy their curiosity. but that was just plain stupid. Second, I don't see how the weapon could have went off in a level III holster. There is more to this story then we are being told. I smell cover up.

Jeff

 

[LiquidTension]

"If this weapon had an external safety -- either a de-cocker or a safety -- it would be right here, so you'd have to manipulate it with your thumb before the weapon would fire," said Culbreath.

I didn't know you had to operate the de-cocker before a weapon would fire. Man, apparently I've been using Sigs wrong all this time

 

[Wags]

This was not an accident. Other wise known as a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. The Officer should be reprimanded or even suspended for letting children even touch his loaded firearm, holstered or not. These types of stories make my blood boil. No excuse is warranted, period. Thank god no one was seriously hurt. WRONG MOVE Officer...........

 

[jdmb03]

Culbreath is a firearms instructor at the Criminal Justice Academy.

I would say soneone needs to find a new job if he thinks an external safety slows down an officer. If someone is properly trained they shouldn't have a problem flicking off a safety. It seems like they want to give cops the easiest guns to fire but not provide them with proper training. And the decocker comment doesn't make him sound very bright either.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...would someone please tell me what a "school resource officer" is?

Some self-appointed genius with a blue shirt, a silvery star, a gun, and peanut butter between his ears, apparently.

If I were that "school resource officer's" supervisor, I'd fire him on the spot.

 

[dustind]

This is in no way Glock's fault.

He should have unloaded the pistol before allowing the kids to try anything. Assuming that is what happened.

 

[Sportcat]

Yet another update

http://www.independentmail.com/and/home/article/0,1886,AND_8195_3774088,00.html

Student in shooting accident won't be blamed
By CHARMAINE SMITH
Anderson Independent-Mail
May 12, 2005

No disciplinary action will be taken against the student who accidentally fired a Lakeside Middle School resource officer’s gun in a classroom Wednesday as the officer tried to demonstrate how the gun could not be snatched from its holster.

"It was totally an accident," Anderson School District 5 Superintendent Betty Bagley said Thursday.

The incident still is being investigated by the Anderson County Sheriff’s Office. The school resource officer, Robert Miller, has been placed on administrative leave until the investigation is complete.

Parents waiting in line to pick up their children from the school Thursday afternoon said they were shocked by the shooting but that the incident had not altered their faith in the school resource officer program or in the officer’s need for a weapon on school grounds.

Some said they used Wednesday’s accident as a teaching tool for the children.

The shooting occurred about 8:45 a.m. Wednesday as Mr. Miller monitored a group of students taking the Palmetto Achievement Challenge Test. Mr. Miller was demonstrating how his gun, a Glock model 22 40-caliber, could not be pulled from its triple duty retention holster.

When a student walked up to the officer to see if the gun could be pulled from the holster, the student’s finger slipped into a slight opening in the holster and just behind the trigger. The bullet shot into the classroom floor. No one was seriously injured.

As Nancy Baxley waited in her minivan outside the school, she recalled the years she had watched her uncle, once a policeman in Greenville, come in and put his gun down on the table.

"We knew not to touch it," she said. "Now my husband and I have a small gun in the house. So when this happened, we sat down and talked with our grandchildren. They know about gun safety, but we wanted to take precautions."

Just a few parking spaces away from Ms. Baxley was another woman, Elly Dominguez, waiting for her son to emerge from the school on Anderson’s west side. She said she and her husband moved from Miami a year ago and researched several schools in South Carolina before settling on moving to Anderson so their son could attend Lakeside.

She said she was "concerned that the officer did not follow protocol." But like Mrs. Baxley, she said the incident served as another reminder why everyone should practice extreme safety around any kind of weapon.

Mrs. Dominguez said her son, who’s in the sixth grade, has been taught gun safety and is familiar with guns. And when he heard about the shooting, his mother said he questioned why the students wanted to touch the officer’s gun.

Ronnie Redmond, whose sixth- and seventh-grade daughters attend Lakeside, said he believed the shooting was an accident and he hoped officers "would not make that same mistake again."

He also supported the presence of armed deputies inside the schools.

"The way things are happening nowadays, I think you’ve got to have officers in the schools," Mr. Redmond said.

Charmaine Smith can be reached at (864) 260-1269 or by e-mail at [email protected].

 

[ScottsGT]

When a student walked up to the officer to see if the gun could be pulled from the holster, the student’s finger slipped into a slight opening in the holster and just behind the trigger.

There's the problem! It's the schools fault for not teaching basic gun safety to the students. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire!!
My 4 grader know this basic rule!!!
NRA should take this opportunity to offer up some real gun safety programs in areas like this (deep south, where guns are part our lives) where parents would be more willing to let it happen. Try a gun safety course in DC or NY. Ha! would never happen.