Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
I think I've finally understood big cities.
According to Geraldo....
- Thread starter BammaYankee
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I think I've finally understood big cities.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
Must be the source of the brady group's facts and statistics.
3" carry guns must have awesome "shotgun effect"
3" carry guns must have awesome "shotgun effect"
Phydeaux642
Member
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2007
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- 1,886
Does anybody have a chair handy?
Guy B. Meredith
Member
Enough of Geraldo. I just had to comment so sent the following to the general comments and to Rivera's link. (I'm not a rifle person so I hope I spoke correctly--wouldn't want to join Geraldo on the stool in the corner.)
An intelligent correction to Geraldo Rivera's rambling is not likely to make it to an on air correction, but I need to comment.
I don't know whether someone is intentionally feeding Mr. Rivera misinformation on firearms to make him look like a complete fool or whether Mr. Rivera is doing it on his own. Perhaps he takes the audience for fools and feels he can safely blather on in ignorance.
Mr. Rivera's explanation of the reason the short barreled rifle owned by Drew Peterson is "more deadly" is completely wrong. There is no "shotgun effect" and the rifle is not more dangerous because of the short barrel. Rather, the short barreled rifle may tend to be "less deadly" in that the bullet will have less energy as the gases from the powder have less time to act on the bullet before it leaves the barrel.
In fact, the short barrel is for maneuverability. The short barrel makes it easier to handle in a restricted area and in some cases a short barrel also is used to reduce the weight of a rifle.
Guy B. Meredith
An intelligent correction to Geraldo Rivera's rambling is not likely to make it to an on air correction, but I need to comment.
I don't know whether someone is intentionally feeding Mr. Rivera misinformation on firearms to make him look like a complete fool or whether Mr. Rivera is doing it on his own. Perhaps he takes the audience for fools and feels he can safely blather on in ignorance.
Mr. Rivera's explanation of the reason the short barreled rifle owned by Drew Peterson is "more deadly" is completely wrong. There is no "shotgun effect" and the rifle is not more dangerous because of the short barrel. Rather, the short barreled rifle may tend to be "less deadly" in that the bullet will have less energy as the gases from the powder have less time to act on the bullet before it leaves the barrel.
In fact, the short barrel is for maneuverability. The short barrel makes it easier to handle in a restricted area and in some cases a short barrel also is used to reduce the weight of a rifle.
Guy B. Meredith
Guy B. Meredith
Member
On reflection my comments were not very High Road. Lesson is to follow something like the builders' rule of "measure twice, cut once" and read messages twice before sending.
However, it got an immediate reply from the Rivera. My response follows his reply.
>Subject : FW: I hesitate to answer your nasty mean-spirited diatribe but fyi
>
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Architecture and Design Behavioral Science Biomedical and Life Sciences Business and Economics Chemistry and Materials Science Computer Science Earth and Environmental Science Engineering Humanities, Social Sciences and Law Mathematics and Statistics Medicine Physics and Astronomy Professional and Applied Computing ??(??) ??(??) English Deutsch ??? ??? Français Español ??????? ???????
Journal Article
Effect of shortening the barrel in contact shots from rifles and shotguns
Journal International Journal of Legal Medicine
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0937-9827 (Print) 1437-1596 (Online)
Issue Volume 122, Number 1 / January, 2008
Category Technical Note
DOI 10.1007/s00414-007-0161-y
Pages 81-85
Subject Collection Medicine
SpringerLink Date Thursday, March 08, 2007
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Technical Note
Effect of shortening the barrel in contact shots from rifles and shotguns
M. Große Perdekamp1 , B. Vennemann1, B. P. Kneubuehl2, M. Uhl3, M. Treier3, R. Braunwarth4 and S. Pollak1
(1) Institute of Legal Medicine, University Hospital Freiburg, Albertstraße 9, 79104 Freiburg, Germany
(2) Armasuisse, Feuerwerkerstrasse 39, 3602 Thun, Switzerland
(3) Department of Radiology, University Hospital Freiburg, Hugstetter Straße 55, 79106 Freiburg, Germany
(4) Kriminaltechnische Untersuchungsstelle der Landespolizeidirektion Freiburg, Berliner Allee 3a, 79114 Freiburg, Germany
Received: 27 November 2006 Accepted: 13 February 2007 Published online: 8 March 2007
Abstract In a suicidal gunshot fired to the chest from a carbine, the barrel of which had been shortened to half its original length, an unexpectedly large degree of destruction of the anterior thoracic wall with extensive undermining of the subcutis was found. This phenomenon was investigated for reconstructive purposes by firing test shots from two different long guns (caliber 7.92?×?57 repeating rifle with full-jacketed pointed bullet and caliber 12/70 single-barreled shotgun with shotgun slug) into blocks of soap (38?×?25?×?25 cm). The contact shots were fired before and after shortening the barrels (repeating rifle from 60 to 30 cm and single-barreled shotgun from 72 to 36 cm). The volume of the cavities in the simulant was visualized three-dimensionally with the help of a multislice computed tomography (CT) scanner and calculated sectionally. With the repeating rifle and the single-barreled shotgun, the shots from the sawed-off barrels produced significantly larger cavity diameters in the first section of the bullet track. This effect is attributable to the fact that, with a shortened barrel, the gas pressure at the muzzle is higher, thus, leading to increased expansion in the initial part of the wound track in contact shots.
______________________________________
Please note these are contact shots. Powder hasn't
completed burning, expands into the wound. From any
distance this effect is nil.
However, it got an immediate reply from the Rivera. My response follows his reply.
>Subject : FW: I hesitate to answer your nasty mean-spirited diatribe but fyi
>
> Content Types
All Publications Journals Book Series Books Reference Works Protocols Subject Collections
Architecture and Design Behavioral Science Biomedical and Life Sciences Business and Economics Chemistry and Materials Science Computer Science Earth and Environmental Science Engineering Humanities, Social Sciences and Law Mathematics and Statistics Medicine Physics and Astronomy Professional and Applied Computing ??(??) ??(??) English Deutsch ??? ??? Français Español ??????? ???????
Journal Article
Effect of shortening the barrel in contact shots from rifles and shotguns
Journal International Journal of Legal Medicine
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0937-9827 (Print) 1437-1596 (Online)
Issue Volume 122, Number 1 / January, 2008
Category Technical Note
DOI 10.1007/s00414-007-0161-y
Pages 81-85
Subject Collection Medicine
SpringerLink Date Thursday, March 08, 2007
Add to marked items
Add to shopping cart
Add to saved items
Permissions & Reprints
Recommend this article
PDF (206.5 KB)HTML
Technical Note
Effect of shortening the barrel in contact shots from rifles and shotguns
M. Große Perdekamp1 , B. Vennemann1, B. P. Kneubuehl2, M. Uhl3, M. Treier3, R. Braunwarth4 and S. Pollak1
(1) Institute of Legal Medicine, University Hospital Freiburg, Albertstraße 9, 79104 Freiburg, Germany
(2) Armasuisse, Feuerwerkerstrasse 39, 3602 Thun, Switzerland
(3) Department of Radiology, University Hospital Freiburg, Hugstetter Straße 55, 79106 Freiburg, Germany
(4) Kriminaltechnische Untersuchungsstelle der Landespolizeidirektion Freiburg, Berliner Allee 3a, 79114 Freiburg, Germany
Received: 27 November 2006 Accepted: 13 February 2007 Published online: 8 March 2007
Abstract In a suicidal gunshot fired to the chest from a carbine, the barrel of which had been shortened to half its original length, an unexpectedly large degree of destruction of the anterior thoracic wall with extensive undermining of the subcutis was found. This phenomenon was investigated for reconstructive purposes by firing test shots from two different long guns (caliber 7.92?×?57 repeating rifle with full-jacketed pointed bullet and caliber 12/70 single-barreled shotgun with shotgun slug) into blocks of soap (38?×?25?×?25 cm). The contact shots were fired before and after shortening the barrels (repeating rifle from 60 to 30 cm and single-barreled shotgun from 72 to 36 cm). The volume of the cavities in the simulant was visualized three-dimensionally with the help of a multislice computed tomography (CT) scanner and calculated sectionally. With the repeating rifle and the single-barreled shotgun, the shots from the sawed-off barrels produced significantly larger cavity diameters in the first section of the bullet track. This effect is attributable to the fact that, with a shortened barrel, the gas pressure at the muzzle is higher, thus, leading to increased expansion in the initial part of the wound track in contact shots.
______________________________________
Please note these are contact shots. Powder hasn't
completed burning, expands into the wound. From any
distance this effect is nil.
thunder173
Member
What a dip stick,.....
jgh4445
Member
There's a village somewhere missing an idiot!!!! I know where he is!
Chipperman
Member
I still have an image of him burned in my brain from "Al Capone's Vault" c.1986 
I remember him holding the deadly "Tommy Gun" in his hands, and loudly proclaiming, "The Safety's ON, She's HOT."
I was still a teenager, but realized then I already knew more than he ever would about guns.
I remember him holding the deadly "Tommy Gun" in his hands, and loudly proclaiming, "The Safety's ON, She's HOT."
I was still a teenager, but realized then I already knew more than he ever would about guns.
WOW.
That IS funny. In a serious world the idiot who takes himself seriously is awesome for comic relief.
Didn't he also create a stir among reporters covering the war WAY back at the start of things because he declared that he was going to carry a gun? (which I guess is a big no no in the war zone reporting world.)
Perhaps it was good he didn't do so seeing as he probably would have shot his camera man with it.
You don't often really get to watch a true fool in action. It’s fascinating.
That IS funny. In a serious world the idiot who takes himself seriously is awesome for comic relief.
Didn't he also create a stir among reporters covering the war WAY back at the start of things because he declared that he was going to carry a gun? (which I guess is a big no no in the war zone reporting world.)
Perhaps it was good he didn't do so seeing as he probably would have shot his camera man with it.
You don't often really get to watch a true fool in action. It’s fascinating.
The bigger wound cavity on contact shots is due to the greater blast effect of the higher-pressure gases which exit from the shortened barrel.
There's nowhere else for these high-pressure gases to go except into the body, where they act as an explosive device.
The effect will not occur even a short distance from the target, where the gases have time and space to dissipate, that is, return to atmospheric pressure.
As an example, the exit gases from a .30-06 with a 24.006 inch barrel (standard in the Springfield rifle) is around 6500 psi.
Shortening the barrel to 18.006" increases the exit pressure to right around 10,000 psi, which is a significant difference in exit pressure.
This kind of relationship between exit pressure and shortened barrel length pertains for almost any firearm and account for the much-increased loudness of the report when a shortened firearm is fired in the open air, compared to a full-length barrel. Shooters of the Mosin-Nagant M44 short-barreled carbine have documented this effect very well.
Therefore, while the article cited is technically correct, that contact with the muzzle will result in greater wounding power, it is misleading in that in normal use, that is, shooting at a normal distance, shortening the barrel will result in less wounding power because the projectile must necessarily be moving slower than in a full-length barrel.
Mr. Rivera is guilty of quoting the cited report without understanding the difference between contact wounding power (as in suicides) and wounding power in firing at a target at normal distances. The former is not due to the bullet or any "shotgun effect," but is due to the much greater explosive expansion of the gases behind the bullet in a shortened barrel, in contact with the target.
230RN said that.
And you can quote me.
There's nowhere else for these high-pressure gases to go except into the body, where they act as an explosive device.
The effect will not occur even a short distance from the target, where the gases have time and space to dissipate, that is, return to atmospheric pressure.
As an example, the exit gases from a .30-06 with a 24.006 inch barrel (standard in the Springfield rifle) is around 6500 psi.
Shortening the barrel to 18.006" increases the exit pressure to right around 10,000 psi, which is a significant difference in exit pressure.
This kind of relationship between exit pressure and shortened barrel length pertains for almost any firearm and account for the much-increased loudness of the report when a shortened firearm is fired in the open air, compared to a full-length barrel. Shooters of the Mosin-Nagant M44 short-barreled carbine have documented this effect very well.
Therefore, while the article cited is technically correct, that contact with the muzzle will result in greater wounding power, it is misleading in that in normal use, that is, shooting at a normal distance, shortening the barrel will result in less wounding power because the projectile must necessarily be moving slower than in a full-length barrel.
Mr. Rivera is guilty of quoting the cited report without understanding the difference between contact wounding power (as in suicides) and wounding power in firing at a target at normal distances. The former is not due to the bullet or any "shotgun effect," but is due to the much greater explosive expansion of the gases behind the bullet in a shortened barrel, in contact with the target.
230RN said that.
And you can quote me.
siglite
Member
Yeah. Man, I watched that live. And my wife came running into the room because I was screaming at my tv. "SHOOT HIM! SHOOT HIM IN THE ********** HEAD LANCE CORPORAL! SHOOT HIM RIGHT NOW!"
I really wish that Lcpl would've done it. Really I do.
csmkersh
Member
A similar comment could be made about using the word "NEWS" in connection with his waste of bandwidth.
robmkivseries70
Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 241
Yep, and he used to be a lawyer or attended law school!
Best,
Rob
Best,
Rob
koja48
member
And so said Geraldo Springer, I mean Rivera . . . that's who I'd go to for firearms advice (or for proven self defense moves when attacked with a chair . . . ).
Cannonball888
Member
is there anyone left that think this guy is creditable?
lets not forget the time he had his nose broken... you know the one where he had the KKK, anti kkk, a jewish group and a black group...on the set at the same time... no they were not going to fight...
lets not forget the time he had his nose broken... you know the one where he had the KKK, anti kkk, a jewish group and a black group...on the set at the same time... no they were not going to fight...
a shorter barrel on an AR style weapon will also cause the bullet to loose stability and it will start to tumble.... so technically the likelihood that a round will zip on through without cavitating is greater... though recent reports from iraq seem so say that the shorter 16" barrel keeps the rounds from approaching a high enough velocity to perform properly at the terminal end.
Guy B. Meredith
Member
This guy has to be a paragon of arrogance, stupidity or shock jock marketing. Geraldo's (almost) final word:
I've been around guns, soldiers, and cops of all tactical stripes and situations my entire professional life. to suggest as you do with such misplaced confidence that a sawed-off or shorter replacement barrel has no ballistic effect is flat wrong--and whether a barrel has been physically shortened (sawed-off) at home or by a factory (replacement) is irrelevant to this discussion
I've been around guns, soldiers, and cops of all tactical stripes and situations my entire professional life. to suggest as you do with such misplaced confidence that a sawed-off or shorter replacement barrel has no ballistic effect is flat wrong--and whether a barrel has been physically shortened (sawed-off) at home or by a factory (replacement) is irrelevant to this discussion
Sebastian the Ibis
Member
Havn't articles about the lack of effectiveness of the .223 in an M4 been on the front page of every major newspaper recently since that report came out?
(I realize that asking this question here is probably rhetorical, but seriously has anyone not seen them?) Isn't Geraldo's job as a purported newsman to actually know what is going on in the news? and thus in the world? I guess not. ..... He is just a Show Pony.
I believe that Joan Rivers and Jerry Springer actually have fans and are entirely too famous to be compared with Geraldo.... Rikki Lake is his true equal
(I realize that asking this question here is probably rhetorical, but seriously has anyone not seen them?) Isn't Geraldo's job as a purported newsman to actually know what is going on in the news? and thus in the world? I guess not. ..... He is just a Show Pony. I believe that Joan Rivers and Jerry Springer actually have fans and are entirely too famous to be compared with Geraldo.... Rikki Lake is his true equal
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