accuracy claims

[Nicodemus38]

the gun shows on tv liek to say that a 3.2 inch barrel semi auto is inherently accurate and that anyone can shoot it well after a little practice.

Yet the "pros" say its impossible to accurately shoot a 2 inch barreled revolver without firing thousands of rounds through it over a period of many years.

So why the big variation on accuracy according to the pros, for weapons that have identical barrel lengths when you subtract the cartridge length from the semi autos listed barrel length?

 

[janobles14]

i would go with balance and trigger pull as a starting point. also the fact that many of the revolver cartridges were originally designed for either 4 or 6" barrels. SOME of the autos were made for shorter barrels.

just my guesses

 

[StrawHat]

Perhaps they mean accuracy when fired from a machine rest.

I have seen some amazing work done with a 2" 38 Special so I don't doubt what can be done by a good shooter. We see it all the time when shooting PPC matches that include an off duty match.

 

[Drail]

Most handguns are far more accurate than the person shooting it. Of course there are some lousy shooters and some lousy handguns. I worked with machine rest testing of various makes of handguns and most of them would surprise you how accurate they are. Whenever a customer would claim that their gun was inaccurate the first thing we had to do was decide if it was the gun or the shooter. 95% of the time it was the shooter. Some defective barrels do make it out the door once in a while though. Most of the "pros" claiming that snubs are inaccurate are inexperienced with snubs. Ignore them.

 

[Ed Harris]

Agree with Drail.

Most handgun use for personal defense is within 20 feet and inherent accuracy is not as important a factor as a favorable grip-to-bore angle and backstrap-to-trigger distance which result in the gun being a "natural pointer." But in field shooting beyond about ten yards, which is sight-focussed, rather than target-focussed, mechanical factors affecting accuracy are more important.

For field, police and military use having acceptable accuracy to 50 yards or so is felt desirable, but these acuracy requirements are relative. An expert marksman using a standard rack-issue M9 Beretta or Glock 9mm pistol can reliably and repeatedly hit an Army "E" silhouette from a supported field position at ranges from 50-100 meters.

Field guns used for big game hunting and small game shooting when used by an expert should be capable of 3-5 inch groups at 50 yards when fired from a supported field position using good ammunition. Ordinary Dispersion is generally expected to be in approximate linear proportion at shorter or longer ranges. An accurized M1911 variant or well tuned single- or double-action revolver should be able to shoot groups in the range of 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 inches at 25 yards with ammunition it "likes." Ringing a 6 inch gong from a 2-handed standing position at 50 yards or a 40% scale IPSC silhouette at 100 yards, with iron sights, using a two-handed isoceles position should be mildly challenging, but readily possible, if you do your part.

The limiting factor in accuracy of a short barreled revolver or autopistol are its reduced sight radius which accentuates any sighting error. They are experts guns. See:
http://shilohtv.com/?p=2600

 

[Walkalong]

a 3.2 inch barrel semi auto is inherently accurate and that anyone can shoot it well after a little practice.

Not anyone, but good shooters can.

Yet the "pros" say its impossible to accurately shoot a 2 inch barreled revolver without firing thousands of rounds through it over a period of many years.

Baloney, just a reasonable amount of practice.

 

[Walkalong]

Besides, folks are not shooting long distances with snubbies in real life defense situations.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yet the "pros" say its impossible to accurately shoot a 2 inch barreled revolver without firing thousands of rounds through it over a period of many years.

Don't think so. My old 1950's Detective Special (among others) can easily group inside the K-zone of a B-27 Silhouette target at 100 yards. Would I use it at that distance in the real world? Who knows? The circumstances of future incidents are not predictable. Anyone who has mastered the principals of basic marksmanship can hit a target at long ranges as soon as they learn the bullet's trajectory when using a particular gun/ammunition combination. This shouldn't take "thousands of rounds... over a period of many years."

So why the big variation on accuracy according to the pros, for weapons that have identical barrel lengths when you subtract the cartridge length from the semi autos listed barrel length?

Unlike revolvers, most of today's "short pistols" don't have a barrel screwed into the frame, but are based on Browning's short-recoil system where the barrel is tipped up and down. Accuracy is compromised to a small degree because the barrel floats inside the slide. This can be eliminated, but at the cost of reliability - which is unwise at best.

Last but not least, the best of handguns can only perform in accordance with the shooter's skill.

 

[M2 Carbine]

accuracy claims

the gun shows on tv liek to say that a 3.2 inch barrel semi auto is inherently accurate and that anyone can shoot it well after a little practice.

I particularly like to teach women and kids to shoot.
Generally the second gun I have them shoot is the 2-3 inch barrel 38 S&W J Frame. Some people are better than others but generally all quickly learn to shoot the small revolvers well. Some extremely well.

Just within the last couple weeks I had a young boy and two young ladies go from the Ruger 22/45 to the 2-3 inch 38 S&W J Frame. All shot extremely well with the little revolver, even while moving.

Before very long I expect to have them standing and shooting the J Frame Smiths at one of my favorite targets, this 2x2 foot steel plate at 52 yards.

Yet the "pros" say its impossible to accurately shoot a 2 inch barreled revolver without firing thousands of rounds through it over a period of many years.

I wouldn't call someone that makes that statement a "pro".

 

[JoeSlomo]

So why the big variation on accuracy according to the pros, for weapons that have identical barrel lengths when you subtract the cartridge length from the semi autos listed barrel length?

The definition of "accuracy" is relative at best.

Any double action trigger would be much more of a challenge to use for a typical shooter than would a single action, or the typical trigger action of an auto.

Shorter barrels are also more challenging as fundamental errors made during sight alignment are compounded and have a greater influence on the strike of the round than they do in the longer barrels.

The T.V. shows and the "pro's" obviously have a different definition of "accuracy".

 

[Offfhand]

To begin with, lets get this thread back on track, are we talking about "accuracy" OR "marksmanship"?

 

[tipoc]

the gun shows on tv liek to say that a 3.2 inch barrel semi auto is inherently accurate and that anyone can shoot it well after a little practice.

The first thing one has to ask is which TV shows, who on the shows and what gun or guns are they talking about? Then you have to ask yourself how they define accuracy. The latter is directly related to the task. There are different standards of accuracy to be met depending on what a shooter is trying to accomplish.

Yet the "pros" say its impossible to accurately shoot a 2 inch barreled revolver without firing thousands of rounds through it over a period of many years.

You're right to ask the question you're asking. If they (whoever these nameless "pros" are) are speaking of just barrel length it is hooey. Now J frame snubbies are harder to shoot well, for most folks, then a Colt DS or a K or N frame snubby. But a person can learn.

tipoc

 

[Nicodemus38]

i had this question for years but after watching the last rerun episode of Guns n Gear on versus last week i had to ask it.
they had there so called professional shooter take the new taurus slim design semi auto with a 3 inch barrel in 9mm, shoot at balloons at maybe 20 feet. The "pro" claimed the balloons were waving wildly about in the wind but on camera the balloons maybe moved 2 inches in the whole shooting segment length as they were stapled onto targets.
he used 2 magazines on three balloons. the first balloon required 5 shots, most of them looked to be shooting OVER the target, the rest of the magazines were used almost equally between balloons 2 and 3.
hes done better and as bad with short barrel revolvers so i had to laugh.

 

[Old Fuff]

... they had there so called professional shooter take the new taurus slim design semi auto with a 3 inch barrel in 9mm, shoot at balloons at maybe 20 feet.

20 feet = long distance????? You got to be kidding!

 

[Wildfire]

Old Fluff .

Hey there:
Not to be a heckler here but Old Fluff has a point.
The stop plate {6" Dia.} was placed at 50' and sometimes at 50 yards in some of our IPSC matches. 1911 .45 acp had to hit it to stop the clock.

My Colt King Cobra with some warm up shots will shock you . Bowling pins at 100 yards plus are in trouble.. 6" barrel.

My new 2" snuby at 8 yards puts all 5 rounds in a 1" hole . .38 cal.
I could go on but .. Oh by the way. I did not do this but saw it happen.

Kimber Ultra Carry .45 ACP at 100 yards bust clay birds. I saw it .. 5 out of 7..

 

[M2 Carbine]

i had this question for years but after watching the last rerun episode of Guns n Gear on versus last week i had to ask it.
they had there so called professional shooter take the new taurus slim design semi auto with a 3 inch barrel in 9mm, shoot at balloons at maybe 20 feet. The "pro" claimed the balloons were waving wildly about in the wind but on camera the balloons maybe moved 2 inches in the whole shooting segment length as they were stapled onto targets.
he used 2 magazines on three balloons. the first balloon required 5 shots, most of them looked to be shooting OVER the target, the rest of the magazines were used almost equally between balloons 2 and 3.
hes done better and as bad with short barrel revolvers so i had to laugh.

That's funny.

Maybe they ought to hire my 16 year old student here.
This is about the third time she shot the 3 inch 38 S&W J Frame and the first time she shot this rocking target.
The girl has only shot about a dozen times total..............


.......but is good with every gun I give her.

 

[Old Fuff]

Lets see… (Old Fuff takes off his shoes so that he can use his toes to count with) 8 yards would be… ah… wait while I count… 24 feet, right?

If one is cocking the hammer getting all of the shots into one hole where they touch each other shouldn’t be too hard. A J-frame S&W can be a challenge, but if you upgrade to a Colt D-frame or S&W K-sized revolver it becomes downright easy.

Going to double-action is harder, but far from improbable with the latter two revolvers.

I’ve known a lot of folks (mostly lawmen) who could cut the center out of a 50 ft. gallery target at the specified distance.

If 20 feet = long distance we’re in serious trouble…

 

[Wildfire]

Yep.

24" is right , I allowed for the 21 foot rule and gave the bad guy a fair chance.
LOL.
I carry a Kimber Ultra carry in .45 and a Taurus 85 2" .38 Ultra Lite Titanium.

Both will shoot way past what I am good at. The little wheel gun is ported and very loud. It slaps ya pretty good too. Target shooting is kept to a min.

I own and operate my own rig over the road and would hate to even think of having to fire that snubby inside of that truck..... I don't hear well as it is.

But none the less , I agree , The length of barrel really should not have that much to do with how far it can stay on the target .

 

[Drail]

M2 Carbine, I wish I had students that looked like that. I used to teach women's personal protection courses (NRA) and I learned very quickly that women are MUCH easier to teach than guys. They listen to instructions, do exactly what you tell them, and proceed to shoot the center out of the target! Most of them had decided they needed to learn to shoot but did not want to learn from their boyfriends/husbands. It was truly amazing. Keep up the good work.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2 Carbine, I wish I had students that looked like that. I used to teach women's personal protection courses (NRA) and I learned very quickly that women are MUCH easier to teach than guys. They listen to instructions, do exactly what you tell them, and proceed to shoot the center out of the target! Most of them had decided they needed to learn to shoot but did not want to learn from their boyfriends/husbands. It was truly amazing. Keep up the good work.

Last Saturday was fun with these two female students. (the lady on the left should receive her CHL any day now)
Just being around pretty ladies is nice and if they are shooters it doesn't get much better than that.


BTW, Saturday was only the second time that young lady, on the right, had shot a gun. The first time being over a year ago. At that time, for a couple hours I began teaching her to shoot a Ruger 22/45. Then we got rained out and she had to go back to California.

Saturday she was visiting again but we were short on time, so her 38 J Frame and safety briefing had to be a lot quicker than I like.
First she shot 5 rounds from 6 yards. All hits COM and she handled the gun well, so I told her, since we don't have much time, we are going to jump way ahead and have you shoot on the move.
I had her shoot backing up, moving right, left and turning and shooting multiple targets while moving back to 9-10 yards. I told her the last 2 silhouette targets were home invaders wearing body armor , so only head and low shots count and NO misses are acceptable and she had to shoot while backing up. She tore the BG's up.
To say she did extremely well is an understatement.

 

[jad0110]

M2,

Not to hijack this thread, but can you tell me about the brass catcher mounted on your AR in post #16? A PM would be fine, if you'd prefer. Thanks!

 

[M2 Carbine]

Not to hijack this thread, but can you tell me about the brass catcher mounted on your AR in post #16? A PM would be fine, if you'd prefer. Thanks!

I'll just post it here in case others are interested.
It's a E&L. I bought it a lot of years ago.
They are made for many guns. Recently I bought one for the UZI and M1 Carbine.

A little expensive but it's sure nice not having to pick up the brass, especially if you are shooting from different distances or moving.
Plus it keeps your hot brass from hitting other shooters.

http://www.elmfg.com/store/brasscatcher.html#Anchor-35882

A net search may find you a lower price.