Accuracy of SB vs Standard .223 sizer Die

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BradZ28

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Is there any accuracy to gain by going with the standard full length resizer over the small base?

Right now Im reloading for an AR so I was talked into the small base but Im pretty fresh to reloading centerfire. Problem is I got a case stuck in my die and the sucker isnt coming out. Im to the point of just buying a new die and now am dealing with the dilemma of choosing small base again or going with standard. I realize my stuck case problem Im trying to fix now may not happen so easily with a standard set but what about accuracy? My only real issue is sizing some old military junk I found at a gun show a couple years back and the LC brass sizes really easily even with small base die... so if I watch the lube then I believe I can prevent this from happening in the future. And I like the idea of a small base die BUT if its costing me accuracy then Id make the switch. What do you guys think?
 
You do not need (or want) an SB die to reload for an AR.
Using an SB die is not the cause of your stuck case. Insufficient lubrication is the problem.
An SB die works your brass more than a standard die, resulting in shorter case life.
Accuracy between SB and standard dies is insignificant to non existant in an AR.
 
I've never used a small base die for loading AR's, only regular sizing dies. I've loaded a lot of once-fired cases from numerous sources and have not had any chambering problems in different AR's. Don't know if you'd have any accuracy improvements in your rifle with standard sizing?
 
From what Ive been taught and experienced, one should only use full length sizing dies when dealing with semis and ar15s. This is because the case is still expanding even after it has been extracted so that the case is actually larger than the bore it was fired from. This expansion is the reason that you should only full length size the ammo your fire from an ar15 instead of only short sizing it. Hopefully more seasoned reloaders will chime in as that is the extent of my knowledge so far.;)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piTWcqhH3No
http://www.gswagner.com/reloading/reloading2.html
A couple of ideas to remove stuck cases in your die. Some have tried penetrating oil, some have tried putting the die in the freezer and then trying to remove the case. A little warmth of the die trying to keep the case cold might work. Don't apply heat that would turn the metal blue and soften your die. I highly recommend Dillon case lube and some prefer Imperial sizing wax. I still use the Dillon lube on a case lube pad and roll the cases on the pad. I still would invest in a new standard sizing die.
 
Right I am using a full length die... but since I will probably just buy a new one tomorrow, should I go small base or regular which are both full length dies.
 
Thanks for the removal tips but Im far past that point. A couple guys at work tried removing it and busted the thing off flush or even a little under flush with the base of my die... so I have nothing to grab onto and the primer pocket is totally gone. :(
 
From what Ive been taught and experienced, one should only use full length sizing dies when dealing with semis and ar15s. This is because the case is still expanding even after it has been extracted so that the case is actually larger than the bore it was fired from.

I'm not sure I agree with that. :) I think it has more to do with the energy stored in the spring in semi-autos that moves the bolt forward. Neck sizing works fine (with correct head spacing) in bolt guns because we're able to exert a lot more closing force than a semi-auto. In fact, you can neck size and head space .223 rounds after firing so that they're 0.002 inches undersized (compared to the chamber dimension) and they'll function just fine in an AR. Case expansion is limited by the chamber walls so I don't think cases expand AFTER they're extracted ... in fact, cases would relax a little after the initial expansion in the chamber which is why they're fairly easy to extract. Just my opinion.

:)
 
Problem is I got a case stuck in my die and the sucker isnt coming out.

Brad, I have an RCBS stuck case removal die that works well. It's useful to have around although I haven't had a stuck case in many, many years.

:)
 
Thanks for the removal tips but Im far past that point. A couple guys at work tried removing it and busted the thing off flush or even a little under flush with the base of my die... so I have nothing to grab onto and the primer pocket is totally gone.

Brad,

Melting point of brass ... 1700 F
Melting point of high carbon steel ... 2500 F

Hmmmm ..... :)
 
Funny you mentioned that. I was thinking how fun it would be... little heat... little more heat... liquid brass!
 
This is because the case is still expanding even after it has been extracted so that the case is actually larger than the bore it was fired from.
That is simply not true.

The fired case is larger then it was to begin with, but is never larger then the chamber it was fired in.

Any firearm, and in particular, any semi-auto firearm has to wait for bore pressure to drop off to near zero, and the case to shrink back down and release it's grip on the chamber before it can even begin to be extracted.

If the case were still expanding when the bolt unlocked, the firearm would explode!

rcmodel
 
I second the motion of returning the die to the mfg they should be able to get it out. I use a standard sizing die for my AR in conjunction with a case length gauge,I size my brass just enough to function in my rifles. Bought mine from Dillon but don't remember how much it costs. The only other doodad I use is a carbide expander ball.
 
No need for a SB die in any AR with a 5.56 chamber. Maybe necessary with a tight .223 match barrel chamber, but I doubt it.

Unless you are re-sizing GI surplus machinegun brass the first time, a SB die is almost never necessary for anything.

rcmodel
 
Buy a stuck case removal kit, they are like $15 or so from midwayusa.com. They work pretty darn well, I stuck a case once, and the kit was the only way to get that thing out of the die. I tried all sorts of other tactics, had reduced the casehead to a chewed up mess before using the kit.

I use a SB die for .223, but I have no idea if it is needed or not, I just did it as a little extra insurance. Since I've never managed MOA level accuracy out of my loads or factory loads through my ARs, I don't really sweat it. If I can print sub 2 MOA, I'm more than happy.
 
Folks who claim that using a small base die shortens case life are doing something that I am not. Perhaps they are not setting up their dies with Wilson type case gages. A small base die will oversize a case if you do not know how to set the die up.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

Gas guns depend on good ammunition to function. If your cases are oversized, or undersized, you are going to have problems. You want cases that are close to factory dimensions for best feeding and extraction. The AR is relatively forgiving in this matter, it does size slightly oversize cases to fit the chamber, and if it slamfires in the process, the lugs are usually in engagement. Something that is not always true for the M1a or Garand.

The gunsmith who rebarrels my match rifles always has someone calling in, complaining that their newly rebarreled rifle is jamming with their reloads. The problems with their reloads were that the ammunition was fired in some huge chamber, then the owner sized them like they always did with a standard die, and those cases become an interference fit in the chamber of a new match AR.

And what do you know, just after I posted this, another thread shows a guy who uses a case gage, but not small base dies, and his cases won't come out of the chamber, easily.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2970854#post2970854

As for limited case life, I have not experienced it. I small base size .223, 308 and 30-06. I shoot the stuff in match rifles and standard grade rifles.

As a science experiment, I took one set of 308 LC64 cases 22 or 24 reloads, in a M1a, using small base dies (and lubricated cases!) and never had a case head separation. I had body splits, neck splits, and I retired the brass when the primer pockets got too large.

Some of my AR brass is around ten reloads. That is the stuff I use for load testing. No unusual overworked problems yet.

Standard dies may not reduce the case enough to drop in a chamber. Barnett, the barrel maker, made me 308 and 30-06 case gages using the same reamer he uses on his M1a and M1 Garand match barrels. At that time I think he was using J&G reamers. I could be wrong. Wilson type headspace gages are cut fat, so you can drop in a fired round and measure headspace. Wilson gages do not measure “fatness”. As you can see from the attached pictures, cases sized with a standard sizing die are not necessarily reduced enough to fit in the reamer cut chamber.

This small interference fit would never be noticed in a bolt rifle. The cocking cams are so powerful. But I don’t want any delay to bolt closure in a gas gun. The small base sized brass just dropped right in.

I paid Compass Lake Engineering $35.00 for a .223 reamer cut cartridge headspace gage, using their reamer. That is the reamer they used on my Space Gun barrel. I do not have any similiar .223 pictures, but generally the Lee Die sized .223 cases just drop right in. Still, I use a Lyman Small base die on my .223 brass. Works great.

As for accuracy, if you can hold hard enough to tell the difference in accuracy between dies, standard dies and small base dies, NRA week at Camp Perry is next week. Go now. Because you will win everything. Two weeks from now you will be the National Across the course champion, and probably the National Long Range champion. You just missed winning the President's 100 and the Leg match.

Unsized, once fired 308 cases. One in a Wilson case gage, one in a reamer cut chamber gage.

OncefiredWRA68unsizedincasegages.gif

OncefiredWRA68caseheads.gif

Case sized in standard die. Does not drop flush into reamer cut chamber gage

WRAsizedinLeedie.gif

Case sized in small base die. Drops flush into reamer cut chamber gage.

WRAresizedinRCBSSmallbasedie.gif
 
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