Accuracy WWII Rifles?

[Rebar]

I'm building a list of WWII era rifles to collect, and was wondering what to expect accuracy wise. What would be the MoA I could expect from an average as-issued with issued ammo, and what a good example would (roughly) cost:
M1 Garand
1903 Springfield
M1 Carbine
Lee-Enfield No.3 & 4
Kar 98k
K43
Mosin Nagant 91/30 and 38
SVT-40
(Feel free to throw in any I missed)

Also, are mp44/stg44 rifles available for collecting? I understand that they were select fire, any semi-auto versions around? What would be the MoA with one of these? Same with the BAR.

And just for my knowledge, are submachine gun and machine gun accuracy measured in MoA, or some other method? How about military pistols?

 

[wanderinwalker]

I am only experienced with the M-1 Garand and 1903 Springfield. With ball ammo both are reliable 2-2.5 MOA rifles, IME. With tuned handloads the M-1 can be brought into the 1.5 MOA range and the '03 will punch clusters just larger than 1 MOA. As always, YMMV, and I am talking 5 shot groups.

 

[J Calhoun]

Your results will depend on the condition of each rifle and the ammo. Most militaries considered 2 MOA as good at the time.

My Garand shoots about 2.5 with ball ammo, 1.75 with handloads. $500-800.

M1 carbine about 3 MOA with ball ammo. $450-700.

1903 Mk1 will do about 2 MOA, 1.75 with handloads. $400- 650.

Enfield No4 Mk1* is about 3 MOA, 2.5 with handloads. $150- 200

Mauser Kar98k is about 2 MOA ball ammo, 1.25 with handloads. $150-200

Mosin-Nagant M1944 carbine is about 2.75 MOA with ball ammo. $50-80.

I'm planning on a Jap Arisaka, French MAS36 and an Italian Carcano.

I don't think there are any MP's and STG's in semi auto form. There is a company that makes new BARs in semi-auto.

 

[BamBam-31]

If you're going to dip into the Mosin-Nagant pool, you gotta try the Finn M39. With Wolf ammo (not even close to match ammo), I get under 2" groups with mine (5 shots, 100 yds.). About $200 for a good one.

 

[liliysdad]

96 Swede, I get well under 1.5" groups at 100yds, with a scope, however, and with surplus ammo. I can reign it in tighter with Handloads.

 

[Cosmoline]

Based on my experiences and what I've seen first-hand:

K-31: 1MOA or better
Swedish Mauser: 1 MOA to 1 1/2 MOA
Kar 98k: 2 MOA standard, up to 4 MOA for badly abused ones
91/30: 3 MOA for most post '41 production, 2 MOA for good quality '30's production. Sometimes "sniper" grade aren't any better than the normal rifles due to wear and tear.
M-39 Finn: 1 to 2 MOA
M-44: 3 to 4 MOA
VZ-24: 2 MOA standard
Arisaka Type 99: 2 MOA


2 MOA seems to have been about what most militaries were aiming for. Sniper models were a cut above, of course. Only a few armies strived for something better for the average soldier. These tended to be small armies that needed to make every shot count. Thus the Swiss, Swedes and Finns all seemed to have rifles a cut above the average. The Finns proved the importance of good rifles in the hands of good marksmen.

 

[RustyHammer]

Depends on who's shooting the rifle .... if French, wouldn't matter (i.e. would be unfired)!

 

[VG]

The acceptance standard for the M1 Garand was around 7 inches at 100 yards., I think.

Some people claim their Garands can shoot 2" or smaller groups, but I've owned 9 of them and none of them would do so with real groups (no throwouts). The best EVER five round group I got was 2.1". Most shoot 3-4".

 

[Cosmoline]

I've never been able to afford a Garand, but I have shot alongside them many times at the range. I've been amazed because I always thought of them as very accurate, yet I've seen them deliver pie-plate groups I'd expect from an old Mosin. I remember one incident in particular, when I was right next to a fellow with a NICE looking Garand. Pristine, unaltered. Must have cost a mint. And I had a rather beat up Eygptian contract FN-49. My SAFNshot a prefect line down to the center as I sighted in, then gave a nice quarter-size group. The Garand was all over the place in spite of being shot from a bench rest, and its owner grew increasingly angry as he looked out with his spotting scope after each shot.

Things like that, plus the massive price tag, has kept me well clear of American surplus firearms.

 

[cracked butt]

The garands will shoot, provided that you have the gas cylinder tightened up to the barrel and the op rod is properly shaped and not dragging on anything. Mine will shoot less than 2" with an 8 shot clip with handloads- with surplus ammo, it shoots all over the place.

 

[swingset]

K-31's are in my experience the most accurate "as issued" battle rifles of WWII - tho none saw combat.

I've been able to get 1-1.25" groups with GP-11, and I'm not alone on that.

Some No4mk1's are also capable of 1" groups, but you have to feed them good ammo. I have a '43 Maltby with a Ph5C sight that can go sub-MOA and it's unmessed with. Stretch an Enfield out at 300-600 yards and prepare to be amazed at the long distance performance of the gun and ammo - that's legendary.

The M39 Mosins are also very very accurate on average. I've been amazed at some of the shooting I've seen from them.


I can't comment on the other guns with much authority, my examples have either been poor or not representative of an "issued weapon".

 

[Swampy]

Rebar,

Though I do own an '03 Spfld and M1 Carbine or two, most of my US WWII rifle experience is with M1 Garands.

I've not had very good success with the '03 Mk-I or the Carbines that I own shot with issue GI ammo. On the order of 4-5 MOA at 100 for 10 shot groups. While this is considered typical around here for Carbines, that's not very good for the typical '03. Most will do much better. I don't shoot these much..... I'm pretty sure the '03 Mk-I could be tightened up if I'd take the time to work with them.

Now for the Garands..... USGI armory accuracy spec for an M1 states that the rifle had to shoot 8 shots into 4.0 MOA or better at 100 yds or it was downchecked and sent back for repair. Most issue grade M1's with a decent barrel and good tight wood will do better.

I own LOT's of Garands... all bought through the CMP program. Even the "dog" of the bunch will stay within USGI spec for accuracy. Most of them are in the 2-1/2 to 3.0 MOA range, and with good handloads you can get them down below 2-1/2 with no problem. The best ones will get down to below 2 or 1-3/4.

A fully match tuned Garand with new bedded wood and a new commercial Match barrel will stay under 1-1/2 MOA or even BETTER (1.0 or 3/4 MOA) if it's really been worked over by a 'smith who knows his stuff.

Please note that I do ALL my load testing and accuracy shooting from prone position, supported by sling.

"BENCHES??? I don't need no Stinking BENCHES!!!"

Any Garand that can't stay within 4-5 MOA needs work. It could be as simple as a loose gas cylinder, which can be tightened up by peening the splines or using breakable loc-tite. It could be old, compressed wood that does not lock up tight enough. A new stock, or shimming or glass bedding the old one can fix that problem. An op-rod that is binding or "rubbing wood" can also cause flyers to otherwise nice groups. Loose sights can also be a problem (though the other causes given are more likely).

In any case, a little judicious work can get most any Garand with a decent bore & muzzle back up to spec.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

 

[Rebar]

Thanks for the replys all.

I didn't think about accuracy specs, i.e. how accurate the guns were supposed to shoot per that government's specifications. I think I'd be well satisfied if the examples I bought and restored shot to that standard.

So, the accuracy specs are:
M1 Garand - 4 MoA
1903 Springfield - ?
M1 Carbine - 5 MoA?
Lee-Enfield No.3 & 4 - ?
Kar 98k - 2 MoA?
K43 - ?
Mosin Nagant 91/30 - 3 MoA?
Mosin Nagant 38 - 4 MoA?
SVT-40 - ?

 

[geojap]

I have often considered the question you are posing. How accurately will the [insert rifle name here] that I will buy shoot at the range, given the reputation of the [insert the rifle name again here].

I think the best and correct answer is that each and every rifle is unique and will shoot differently, especially with different ammo. Trying to apply "the Garands" reputation to accuracy to the Garand you are holding in your hand is meaningless because your individual Garand could shoot in any number of ways. Each of these rifles is anywhere from 40 to over 100 (!!!) years old and each has aged in its own unique way. You will get some old Czech mausers that have a reputation for 4-5 MOA that will be a tack driver, or a Finn M39 Mosin that won't hit the side of a barn. It all depends on the ammo and the condition of the rifle. I have 2 Garands, both are Springfields from the CMP and one will shoot 2 MOA with Korean surplus and the other is closer to 8 MOA. Both would benefit from a match trigger and I think I'll have the poor shooter rebarrelled to 308 soon. I have 30+ different mil-surps and they all shoot differently. Most of mine are the ones that are 'supposed' to be more accurate (Persian and Swedish Mausers, Finn Mosins) and a few of them are within 1-2 MOA, but most of them are less accurate. Also, some of your supposedly poor shooters will shoot excellently. So applying a rule that states "A Garand should shoot 2 MOA so the one I'm holding in my hand will shoot 2 MOA" just isn't a good idea because that rifle may not fit the mold, actually it probably won't.

I greatly encourage you to complete your project that you mentioned. I think that's an outstanding way to preserve, appreciate and study the amazing history behind these weapon's development and also the very important world history going on at that time.

 

[Sunray]

"...around 7 inches at 100 yards..." Nope. 3" at 100.
"...the massive price tag..." Cosmoline, what massive price tag? You can get one from the CMP for around $500US or less. That isn't massive. The one you saw was likely a Century re-build. Their QC is iffy at best. Most M-1's will shoot just fine. It mostly depends on the ammo. A rest won't help crappy ammo or a poor shooter. The one, repeat one, you've seen is not representative of ALL American surplus rifles.
"...Lee-Enfield No.3 & 4..." That'd be the No 1 Mk II and the No 4. Mk's I & II. The MK III was used by Commonwealth troops during WW I, the No 4 during WW II. Australia opted not to switch over to the No 4 and continued to use and make the MK III. Milsurp Enfields are notorious for have bad head space. Usually not a big deal with a No 4, but can be with a MK III.
Like geojap says, milsurp rifles can vary to an incredible degree. Some have been properly stored and maintained. Others have not. Anything from Century Arms is suspect for both quality and safety. They have a poor reputation for QC and the stuff they rebuild and sell can be downright dangerous to shoot. They have been known to build rifles from parts bins with no regard to head spacing or the safety of shooting said rifle.
When you buy any surplus rifle, no matter where it came from, you must always, always check the head space BEFORE you shoot it. Especially Lee-Enfields. Do not expect to find cheap ammo for any milsurp except currently used ball. Especially, .30-06. The days of cheap ammo are long gone. Some ammo is nearly impossible to find, is corrosively primed or totally unreliable. So make sure you don't buy some odd ball European rifle that hasn't had ammo made in 60 or more years. Or isn't readily available either commercially or as surplus. Japanese ammo comes to mind and most European calibres.
There are BAR's being made that are semi only and therefore you can buy. Be prepared to pay $4,300USD plus taxes and shipping for one. Any others require Federal permits and you living in a State that allows them. Ditto with the mp44/stg44. Be prepared to dig deep.
You need to decide if you ae looking to shoot these rifles or just collect. The price you pay is different. A shooter will cost less than a non-shooter. Non-shooter being one that is in too good a condition or of sufficent rarity that shooting it will lessen its value. Go here andread all the articles.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/downloads.asp

 

[Cosmoline]

$500 is indeed massively overpriced to me. I'm spoiled on $150 K-31's and M-39's, I guess

As far as cheap ammo, yes you CAN get cheap modern commercial ammo. Russians make it, Czechs make it, and even the Bosnians make it. You just have to find a shop that sells it or buy it in bulk yourself. I've gotten some amazing deals on Russian 7.62x54R 200 grain SP's. It's modern and has shown no signs of rusting my bores.

I've also seen plenty of cheap .30'06 around. Has a US flag on it and I think it's made in a factory in Bosnia. PMC makes inexpensive stuff as well.

Also, as demand increases outfits such as Graf & Sons are producing low priced loads in such oddballs as 7.7 Jap and 7.65 Argie.

Don't you guys have a store like Ammo King in your neck of the woods?

Anyway, for what it's worth I've had far fewer problems with beat up old WWII vintage rifles than with modern ones. As bad as my worst Mosin shot, it still shot better than my worst Winchester '94. And it cost $60, as compared with $400. New is no guarantee of quality. You have to do your homework for all firearms, new or old, or you may get burned.

 

[Rebar]

I have often considered the question you are posing. How accurately will the [insert rifle name here] that I will buy shoot at the range, given the reputation of the [insert the rifle name again here].

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not interested in accuracy as for a competition or hunting. I'm interested that the rifle shoots as per that government's specs so I know I have a good representational weapon and that it's in good repair. For example, if I get a kar98k, and it shoots 5 MoA, and it's speced for 2 MoA, I know that the weapon needs to be adjusted/repaired, or I need to keep looking for another one in better condition. To that end, any information as to the government specs for the weapons listed above would be most appreciated.

 

[La Pistoletta]

What about the Carcano?

 

[geojap]

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not interested in accuracy as for a competition or hunting. I'm interested that the rifle shoots as per that government's specs so I know I have a good representational weapon and that it's in good repair. For example, if I get a kar98k, and it shoots 5 MoA, and it's speced for 2 MoA, I know that the weapon needs to be adjusted/repaired, or I need to keep looking for another one in better condition. To that end, any information as to the government specs for the weapons listed above would be most appreciated.

I think any of these rifles could do 2 MOA easily if you found a good shooter. But to answer your question the way you want it to be answered, you would need to find out what the government's acceptable standard of accuracy was for each rifle to be issued. I know the Finn's was 1.5 MOA for 3 shots. You will be dealing with a common principle with these rifles such that they have all slightly changed in the last 40+ years, and each one is so unique now that none of them will shoot exactly the same or 100% conform to the original specs.