Acquisition of patrol rifles for LE agency.

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Matt G

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Hi, folks!

Sorry to post an LE question on this board, but I think that there's a lot of knowledge here that I could tap, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from LEOs.

I'm hunting for info on less expensive ways of acquiring acceptable patrol rifles for my small P.D. We would be purchasing a very small number, probably 4 or 5, one for each patrol car. My chief is under the impression that some agencies have been able to get some kind of grant of surplus military M-16s, or at least that such are available cheap to LE agencies. I'm not familiar with any such program on-going, but would of course be interested in looking into it. (and, when I make my proposal, I would include my suggestion that some AR-15 sears be purchased to replace the auto-sears.)

I'm leaning in the direction of the AR, but will absolutely look at other options, such as the Mini-14 and the like. We're not really interested in pistol-caliber carbines, but I have my suspicions that I'll get lukewarm response if I suggest a .308 like an FN or AR-10. 5.56mm seems to be the favorite. While I love the ballistics of .243s (like the AR10 option), they don't lend themselves to extensive practicing, due to higher expense of ammo and shorter barrel life.

Criteria:
Still in the process of creating the standards. Price should be under $1200 ea., complete. Preferably under $900/rifle. Sights will probably be iron, with some consideration given to aux. glass, such as the little Colt scope on top of the AR, which does not impede use of the iron sights. Action should be semi-auto, with detatchable magazines. Total weight loaded should be under 10 lbs. Good practical accuracy is important, but 1 MOA or even 2 MOA inherent accuracy is by no means a necessity. Probably 3 MOA would be sufficient. I will also need to come up with support accessories, such as cleaning gear, magazines, slings, and lockable car mounting brackets.

If any of y'all know anyone who's had to put together such a proposal in the past, please put them in touch with me, so that I don't put unnecessary time into "reinventing the wheel," while I set up my criteria and bid process.

Thanks much, and I look forward to your responses.

--Matt
 
I have no involvement in law enforcement or weapons procurement but here's my idea.

Contact the popular manufacturers directly. Try Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Olympic Arms, Ruger, et al. Tell them what you are looking for. I'll bet they will give you lots of help. Surely, they have a person who is responsible for bidding on contracts or working with law enforcement.

Let those companies do the work for you. It would be a small contract, but it is still a sale.

Good luck.
 
Why semi-auto or full auto?

I'd get some "off the shelf" Winchester .30-30s or some Remington Model 7s in .223 or .243, with iron sights, and maybe put a scoped AR-15 in the watch commander's vehicle.

Reason being that you likely don't have a huge budget for training, and you definitely don't want Joe Cop, when faced with a stressful situation, suddenly deciding that "spray and pray" is the way to play.

The only shots that count are the ones that hit the target.
 
Can't think of the Fed agency but it has to do with unused or old Millitary equipment try DOD first then FEMA,but there is a program that allows PD's to purchase equipment.
 
The SO I work for acquired three M16A1's and three M-14's several years ago through one of the Military "loan" programs, I believe the cost to us was @$50.00 for shipping. The M16's came with one thirty round mag each, the M-14's had eight or ten! All guns had been arsenal refurbished. Oh, and we did receive two of the selector switches for the M-14's, it's tempting to shoot what was one of the worst ideas in U.S. military history, but we've not done it. There were also some Winchester M-1200 shotguns with the full Trenchgun treatment available.

I understand though that all those weapons have dried up with the happenings of the last few years and the demands of the military.

We've also got a few MAK-90's which were imported several years ago with _Fully-Auto_ receivers. Seems that one of the importers brought in these MAK's which had the holes stamped but not punched for the selector to go to rock and roll and for the AK folding stock. They came into the US, BATF gave them a good :scrutiny: look :scrutiny: and cried "Foul!". Importer and some dealers got stuck with a literal boat load of Un-legal guns and some got donated to police agencies.

After playing with all of the above I'd agree that for normal LEO work it'd be hard to beat a short light bolt gun with a low power scope for everything but entry work. Maybe Jeff Cooper's on the right track with his "Scout Rifle" concept, too bad the Steyr's so expensive and QC on the Savage is allegedly so iffy.

Rick
 
bogie: Good question. I am personally a big fan of the M-94 for LE use, and have long felt that it's one of the most under-estimated tools available to officers. It certainly removes a lot of stereotyping about militarization of LEO's, and with the wood and blue steel, looks benign. Frankly, if we went to that, though, I'd probably reccommend stainless and perhaps even a synthetic stock, given that these will be assigned to each car and would be subject to the changes in humidity, dust, etc that are common in a rural PD police car. Still and all, there's a lot to be said for the .30-30.

However, the ammo is more expensive than .223/5.56mm, and a M94 has significantly more kick than an AR (guys, there's a lot of closet recoil sissies out there, trust me! ;) ), which both translate into less trigger time for most officers with the assigned rifle. I don't want that. If I have any say in this (and that's up in the air), officers will be encouraged to put at least 20 rds a month through their assigned rifle, and mandated to put at least 100+/year. AR's and the like are also easier to take down than our beloved M94.

As to making every shot count? Yer durn tootin'! As I said in my initial post, I have no interest in staying with full auto. But should our officers (who usually patrol an entire 12.5 sq. mile area [plus extended ETJ, plus backing up officers over a 100+ sq.mile area]) by themselves with no backup within 10 min or better.) be the first responder to two or more Active Shooters, I have to admit that there's a lot to be said for a reliable, practically accurate SA rifle. Please understand that when we do this EVERY officer will be sent to rifle school, and EVERY officer will have to qualify on a 6 mo. basis with his assigned rifle. We're not going to just stick SMGs in the cars and say 'Good Luck!' :)

Fly320's: We will certainly be putting a bidding process together and forwarding our criteria to those companies you mentioned, and others.

Rick R: Can you get whoever was in charge of the acquisition to send me an email at [email protected] ?

Art: I think they must have done it through the DOD 1033 program, administered by the DOJ. I tried to reach 'em today, but they keep banker's hours. ;)
 
"Bolt action "scout rifle"---Ruger M77 International .308
Semi---How about an AK?"

The bolt gun may be a good choice.
I would say the Savage Scout.
Mine was around $450 plus about another hundred for the scope in the scout mount.
They are .308, so there is no question about their ability to end a fight, and mine will do inch groups with handloads at 100 yds.
Even with that little 2x scope!
And it would draw alot less flak from the public than an AK slung over your shoulder.
The drawback is that they pack a wallop on the friendly end too.
But the recoil can be mastered. I have done it, as have countless others. If you can't learn how to ignore the pain and put the round where it needs to go, then you shouldn't be using a rifle anyway.
If the .308 is too much, maybe an SKS. The 7.62x39mm has less recoil than the .308, but an SKS will still do pretty good out to 250 yds. They are wood stocked and don't have a hi-cap mag or a pistol grip, so they still come in less alarming than the AK or AR-15. And they cost way less than an AR. The mag is fixed, but can quickly be reloaded with strippers, so that is not a real big deal, at least not to me.
If I had to meet your criteria, I would try a couple and see how they fly before I'd exclude them.
 
well, what're you going to use it for?


if you guys use 870s, perhaps one of the remington pump rifles in .308 or -06 would fit the bill.

you could put similar sights on each (ghost ring sights or similar), and you'd not have to worry about training officers to remember two manuals of arms.


I think though, that a scoped boltgun of some type would be better than a semi-auto. rugers are decent by all accounts, and remington makes some short and light short action guns in .308 and .223.

Mini-14's would be another pretty good choice, as well. they're more compact than an ar, and really easy to teach people how to operate.

felt recoil can be reduced somewhat with the addition of a recoil pad, and there are some pre fit pads for 94's available for not much.

if you do go with a 94, you should consider putting a reciever sight of some sort on it.
 
You really don't need the same rifle or the same caliber for each car. You might think about 2 cars with scoped Savage Scout rifles in .308, two with AR-15 type rifles (semi-auto) and two with light pistol caliber carbines.

You are not a military force that needs to consider logistics, so if each rifle has a supply of, say, 50 rounds, your guys should be prepared for any reasonable contingency.

The advantage of the Savage is that it is accurate, relatively inexpensive, and in .308 can use special ammo like tracer, AP and incendiary for situations that call for that sort of thing.

Jim
 
If the agency is purchasing these and not the individual officers, your options are pretty open.

A standard M4 would be a natural choice.

Heck, IIRC the HK G36 comes in around $900 for LE sales.

Best bet is to contact a local LE sales shop and ask for demos and pricing.
 
Lapd has old millitary m16's you might try contacting them and finding out where they got them. I would also second that you go right to the manufacture or a police dealer. You will save the 13% pitman roberson act tax that the rest of us pay when you buy a gun.
 
Second the M14 nomination.

I'll put my ear to the ground and see how the one local PD that has them came to possess them.

Mike
 
Okay, I guess that I had better clarify a bit.

While I did say that the criteria are still up in the air, I can say that bolt actions are going to be out of the running in this round of rifle acquisitions.

Why?

Well, one of the real impetus (imputi?) for our chief wanting to go with this would be to give our first responders a leg up should they arrive on the scene of an "active shooter" situation. Think Columbine, think Hollywood shootout (we have two banks, a HS/middle school, and an elementary school. More are being built.). The idea is to be able to equip an officer so that he and a second officer could go in to meet an actively-shooting threat or threats. Ideally, we'd put together a response team of 4 or more. Fact is, we'll be lucky if two arrive in due time. It may well happen that ONE officer has to meet a threat. A faster second shot is thus a good thing to provide.

We will actually standardize, simply because the rifles will be assigned to cars, and multiple officers are assigned to an individual car. When necessary, we swap cars. Different car means a different rifle. Also, if we standardize, we can send someone (like me!) to armorer's school for that model rifle, to do the upkeep.

We're a rural area, and we have some wide open spaces in which a rifle might be employed. I will press hard for a non-pistol caliber to keep the rifle flat shooting. Also, there's been some interesting research that shows that a .223 will not overpenetrate nearly as many layers of sheetrock as will a 9mm or .45 pistol round. (I was surprised to read that, but the data bears it out.)

While the Rem 7600 would probably meet the criteria of fast second shot, I know of no extended magazines for it. I actually would be more likely to look at the 7400 (SA), if I could find mags of more than 4 rds for it. Anyone know of a source? As it is, I'm on record as being not a fan of pumps when comparing to semi-auto, be they shotguns or rifles. I would just as soon we went from our pumpguns to a quality auto SG. (Please! No flames! I love the 870!)

I doubt my chief would go for purchasing full-autos. He MIGHT go for them on a grant basis. (maybe.)

Jim, I'm having trouble picturing a time when, as an LEO, I'd want to try to justify using incendiary rounds! We're kinda nervous about such things in law enforcement down here in TX, ever since Mt Carmel burned, y'know? :eek: :uhoh: Maybe tracer, but that can be fired out of 5.56mm rifles, too.
 
The Remington 7400 and 7600 take the same magazines. There are 10 round mags for both of them.

What about Saiga rifles? 16" or 20" barrels, available in .223, 7.62x39 (with 10 round mags) or .308 (with 5 and 8 round mags).

Cost $149-$250 apiece, depending on model and where you get them. Don't look as scary as a regular Kalashnikov type.
 
Hm. Based on what I read here and in the American Rifleman review, the Saiga would be a consideration. I wish higher cap mags were available for it, though. Also, I'd prefer to be able to put a receiver peep on it, and that's hard to do with the AK-style dustcover. But it's worth a look.
 
You can get them converted to take AK-47 magazines. (The .223 might be a bit of a problem, but you could probably use AK-74 mags with Robinson .223 followers).

Krebs can convert the 7.62 Saiga to .308 Galil mags (only the VEPR .308 can be made to take M14 mags, due to receiver design). 12 and 15 round Galil mags run about $30. 20 and 25 rounders are like eighty.

You'll need like four US parts in order to make the high cap conversion legal. You'd need more if you wanted a pistol grip, but if you're going to do that you may as well go with regular Kalashniclones.

As for the receiver sight...yeah, it'd be nice. But for the typical ranges involved in most LE encounters, the standard sights would probably do just as well. They can be scoped too, keep in mind.
 
Buying the Saiga or AK type rifle is gonna make finding an Armorer's school interesting:uhoh:. How is the weather in Russia this time of year? I'd stray away from weapons that need "converted" in order to be viable. I've seen the Eagle brand magazines for the Remington rifles but can't say how reliable they are.

You'll have better luck just getting some AR-clone and using that. Our M-16's now wear a Bushmaster M-4 upper and folding stock. They're extremely accurate, reliable and handy (and assigned to the SRT so they stay locked up int he armory). You can also get locking mechanisms designed for the AR to secure it in the vehicle, something you won't find for the AK type rifle.

Rick
 
Well, my chief told me this morning that he's now filed the paperwork through the 1033 program to get some M-16s. Funny thing, though: Their standard is provide enough rifles for 20% of a department's force. Well, in our small department, that's 2 rifles, and the standard is 4 rifles per fire team. So the guy at the DOJ program told our chief to apply for 9, and see what happens. [shrug] Now that it's in the hands of our Federal Guvmint Bureacracy, we get to wait.

In the meantime, I'm going to keep digging for SOPs, best accessories (car brackets, cleaning stuff, SA sears, etc), and see if anyone has stats and data to present to the City about the use of such rifles. In our small rural town, one needs to have one's ducks in a row when approaching this kind of thing, lest some kind of panic develop that our P.D. is "militarizing."

If anyone has any good info written up on their local P.D. or S.O. gearing up with patrol rifles, please share! I plan to do a write-up on what it took to do this, so that other small towns can benefit.

--MG.
 
MARLIN 1894 in .357/.38

You could get a brace of Marlin levergun carbines for the price of one AR-15. Maybe even three! They are accurate and lethal out to 100 yards, but don't have overpenetration problems. Plus, the when an LEO carries one people are likely to think "John Wayne" rather than looking for the terrorist and heading for cover.
 
They could be made to work, but if I were going to a lever gun, why not go to a rifle cartridge? Inherent problems with .357 lever gun: Won't penetrate body armor. Not flat beyond 100 yds. Can't be fired one-handed. Lower capacity than even an SKS. (read: fewer shots for the cop than for a rifle-wielding BG) Slower to shoot and reload. Higher likelyhood of overpenetration than 55 g .223 ammo in sheetrock walls. No benefit to pistol caliber carbine; none of our officers carry .357s or .38's as main battery.

Again, there's nothing inherently wrong with them if you've got them (any rifle is better than NO rifle, when you need one), but if you're specifically going out of your way to gear up, why not choose a rifle that can be employed t meet a wider variety of circumstances? I will, however, absolutely grant that a lever gun certainly assuages the fears that many of the public have about scary rifles in the hands of their P.D.s. We will have a P.R. job to do, as it is. But we can manage that, as long as we aren't flip about it.
 
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