Activists' home invaded by police. How would you act?

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Here's the best I could find so far:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

Depending on the state and municipality a person may or may not be required to give one's name upon request from a LEO. Various courts have ruled that one is not required to show identification unless arrested. One may be detained for a short period by police and asked various questions but is not required to produce identification.

There is just too much "he said vs. she said" going on to determine what happened here.
 
Training is key

The home owners should of been trained/ informed of what to do, and the officer should of been trained better too. Where did respect your country and fellow man go? Where did protect and to serve go? The LEO could of informed them that it was a violation to do that, and the homeowners could of been touched by his professional courtesy and responded respectfully. Maybe just a warning ticket for the first offense, and a real ticket the second time. I went to the airport to pick up someone recently, and the third brake light was out. A policeman stopped me and wrote a warning ticket. He could of done more but his mercy and professionalism made me respect him even more. I check those lights every week now.
 
If you thought this might happen, then why did you provide the example that you provided? Why didn't you simply ask the question in the quote above? That is all you wanted to know, so why bother with all the hokey extraneous stuff?

Context.
 
You are mistaken, though, that once a crime has ceased happening, the officer cannot make an arrest or compel you to ID yourself. Officers can make arrests any time an investigation warrants it. Otherwise, how could an officer arrest someone who was no longer beating their wife (a misdemeanor in most states; though not in mine)? Or arrest someone for stealing gas? The issue is if the crime isn't contemporaneous to the arrest, a warrant may be necessary. If so, the officer can still use reasonable force to detain the suspect until he calls a judge to get a warrant. The suspect does not get to go free while you are waiting for a telephonic warrant.

I didn't say the guy couldn't be arrested, I just found it odd that the officer felt compelled to arrest the guy for a minor offense.

Also, I found what I was looking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Lawson

Lawson v. Kolender put an end to requiring one produce identification on demand by LEOs. From what information was given the couple was not under arrest at the time the LEO asked for ID, as such they were not required to provide it. Of course I could be wrong.
 
IA farmboy;

We're a bit out of sync here. I'm specifically talking about the requirement to ID oneself in the face of legal detention. The "Stop and Identify statutes" page deals with this in the second paragraph of the "Detention" heading. The Edward C. Lawson page deals with the separate requirement to ID yourself to the cops outside of being stopped for another offense. Basically, under Lawson, the cops can't stop you for the sole reason of IDing you.

Like I said, you don't HAVE to ID yourself to the cops; under certain circumstances, though, the can take you down to the station to ID you themselves.

On a final note, we can only presume that the officer in the thread topic wanted to write them a ticket instead of arresting them. Why would he have asked for their IDs otherwise? If he were going to just arrest them, he presumably would have just hooked them up right away. When the homeowner refused and slammed the door on him, that immediately catapulted this incident into an arrest.

A better example would be like this. Say you punch your neighbor in the face so hard he falls down. An officer driving down the street sees this. You go inside the house. The cop comes to your door and asks for ID. You say, "no" and slam the door. What do think will happen? In my state, the will follow the specific section in the penal code that allows a peace officer to "break a door or window to effect an arrest". I'm sure your state has a similar statute.

If you showed the officer ID, he could concievably just write you a ticket for battery, assuming the likelihood of reoccurrance is low. However, after an "escalation" of slamming the door and refusing to show ID will lead to an arrest. This is a typical situation of how a simple misdemeanor escalates into a big deal.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but these principles are important. I really think they should have a portion of high school civics class titled "You and the Police" taught by officers. People are horribly misinformed about their rights, and basically screw themselves trying to "assert" them.

-John
 
John,
I think I see where the confusion is arising. There is a difference between identifying oneself and showing identification.

A LEO can ask you to identify yourself, which should be satisfied by saying, "My name is Edward C. Lawson". They cannot ask you to produce proof of your identity, such as a driver license, unless you are caught in the act of doing something that otherwise requires you to have such identification, such as driving on a public road.

The homeowners here were asked to produce identification (if the article is accurate) which is an unlawful request. If the homeowners were asked to identify themselves verbally they may yet be able to refuse to do so without fear of arrest, depending on local laws.

According to the ACLU one may be arrested for not providing identification, again depending on local laws, but one is in no way required to identify themselves even after arrest. Check out the PDF linked below.

http://www.aclu.org/FilesPDFs/dwb bust card7_04.pdf

On a final note, we can only presume that the officer in the thread topic wanted to write them a ticket instead of arresting them. Why would he have asked for their IDs otherwise?

Several reasons. First one off the top of my head is that the LEO is going to have to fill out an incident report, or something similar. He'll want a name to put on the report. Instead of issuing the lawful request of identifying themselves he made the unlawful request of asking for identification papers.

Another possible reason is he was looking for a reason to arrest them. He could call in their names to dispatch and have them look for outstanding tickets or warrants.

Either way he didn't need to see identification and a good LEO should know that. Also the people in the USA need to know that. One does not need "papers" to step on the front porch. If a LEO stops you outside of your car you are not required to show ID.

The 2nd Amendment is big on this forum, but we should not forget the 1st, 4th, and 5th.
 
IA Farmboy;

We're getting closer, but we're still missing. A better way to put this is that there are many ways/times an officer can compel you to ID yourself. The most common is when you've committed a violation, as was alleged here. In or out of your car doesn't matter. If you commmit a non-arrestable violation (littering, jaywalking) then you must ID yourself so you can be written a ticket. ID may mean stating your name and DOB, or other identifying features. Note that you must ID yourself to the satisfaction of the officer, so the officer can call it in, match to the DMV, etc. If the officer isn't reasonably satisfied with your ID, he may arrest you for the purpose of IDing you.

The issue here is, did the officer have legal reason to require their ID? Although as far as I know the Supreme Court has invalidated Flag descration laws, for giggles let's assume that the officer did have probable cause that that crime was in progress. (This will be figured out in court) At that point, he can (and did) compel them to provide ID, in this case by using force. Whether he wanted to write them a ticket, a report, or run them for warrants is immaterial. He (thought he) had legal reason to make them comply, and he did.

Also, no request for ID is ever illegal. An officer can ask you for anything at any time. He can walk up to your house, out of the blue, and ask to search it. (You'd be surprised how many people say yes) The issue is whether he can compel you to give it to him.

You don't need papers to step on your front porch, or even sit in your living room. You need papers if you commit a violation of the law and want a ticket instead of jail. Again, if an LEO stops you outside your car for a violation, you show adequate ID and get a ticket. Inadequate ID, jail. It's up to you.

I could not agree more about the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments being equally important to the 2nd. That's why I'm writing this. Knowledge is power. In my experience, people who think they "know their rights" really don't know them, and talk and act stupidly, screwing themselves over in the process.

-John
 
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You don't need papers to step on your front porch, or even sit in your living room. You need papers if you commit a violation of the law and want a ticket instead of jail. Again, if an LEO stops you outside your car for a violation, you show adequate ID and get a ticket. Inadequate ID, jail. It's up to you.

I don't know about this. It may all depend on the jurisdiction. Let's say I am charged with jaywalking and I refuse to give my name. The officer may "escort" me to the local courthouse to pay my fine but I don't think that failing to show ID will automatically result in time in jail. A LEO might detain me for a bit to find out if there is something to charge me with but at some point they have to let me go, anonymously. If I recall what I learned on "Law and Order" correctly it's something like 48 hours. (I know TV is not the best source for legal advice.)

I can agree with a lot of what you said. An officer can ask you to do many things. The officer can ask for identifying papers, for permission to search, or even to rub your tummy and pat your head. What the officer cannot do is arrest you for not complying with those requests.

So I misspoke. The request for identifying papers may not have been illegal but the arrest for noncompliance most likely was.

Here is a key point:
Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”

How the deputy answered the question is not given but the implication is he either did not answer or answered no. Of course this is also where things went down hill. If they were not under arrest they should have been free to reenter their home without producing identifying papers. If they were under arrest then the deputy should no longer cared if they produced identifying papers since that could be sorted out at the court house.

Another key point:
“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”

This is HUGE. If this is correct the couple should get all charges dropped, and an apology. Oh, and a few bucks for a new front door. These deputies messed up seriously.

Either way I'm going with what the ACLU has posted on their website. LEOs cannot compel one to produce identifying papers. They may ask for your name, as Hiibel v. Nevada shows, but that is about it.

While I was in college people would get picked up for public intox all the time. I'd read the newspaper on Monday and see that "Phil McCracken", "Ben Dover", and "Ivana Pea" got picked up and spent the night in jail. I'm pretty sure that wasn't their real names. Now these drunken students were of no serious harm so it may have just been that the campus police force didn't care who they were, or it could be quite possible that they knew that holding them for the night is all they could do regardless of who they were.
 
Some people just itch for a fight. Such a person can easily be identified by their nit-picking over technicalities, slighting of others' character, failure to listen and then respond (genuine dialogue) and by general physical aggression...posturing...sum it up as tone, word choice and posture.

It would have been better for the homeowner to ask for the specific law, which the officer apparently had with him, and to ask how to make it legally compliant. With that, the whole ID would probably have been a mute point. I sense that inasmuch as they were on their own property that the ID was just a ginned-up excuse to lead to an eventual arrest. Given that assumption to be accurate, one has merely to decide to comply with ID or go to jail.

In this case, it appears there is a homeowner itching for an altercation, and an LEO willing to help him toward his eventual goal. It doesn't seem to me that either side exercised a tinker's d@mn of common sense. In closing, there was a recent case (I believe in Florida) where a door was kicked in, and an arrest was made without cause, without warrant. The husband beat the LEO senseless and the LEOs countered with something like assault, etc. The homeowner was vindicated in trial. Yet one more case of two wrongs not equating to one right.
 
Mr. Kuhn must be the real author of that widely read mall ninja masterpiece.

"After I slammed the door on his hand, breaking the glass and causing the deadbolt to unlock, I took him to my kitchen, where I head-butted his baton. Fearing for his life, he allowed me to then lead him outside, and after threatening to impale myself on his Taser barbs, he finally allowed me to lie prone."
 
Basically in responding to the OP, everyone has a choice to make in how they would react to semingly unjust actions by a person in position of authority. Like most things in life there are benefits and hazards involved in any given reaction to any given chain of events, and it is up to each of us to determine an apropriate solution where we are at the least risk, this goes for both citizens and officers alike. In a post appocalyptic anarchy where there are no courts to appeal to, limited life sustaining commodities, and those in "authority" are roving bands of thugs who will take anything they wish from anyone they wish, The benefits of an armed resistance vs compliance may be almost certain death vs. fairly certain torture and death, in this case I would choose the former. In a case such as the Kuhn's, where more than likely both sides had a part in escalating the situation, I think it would be far better to comply, take the ticket, and use your day in court to fight, than to "keep it real" refuse showing ID, begin a footchase in the yard, and entertain thousands with your interpretation of "the tazer dance" on you-tube. The police may have had no right to enter, or may have had every right, depending on the courts interpretation of the law, but IMO it is better to live to plead your case to the courts and media, hopefully winning victory for civil rights and a new respect for the constitution, than to be literally "dead right" and fight the police on the street.
 
That being said, I am proud to be a law-abiding, gun owning, freedom loving citizen of the United States. Part of the law system that we have allows a person to challenge laws that are unjust, unfair, or unconstitutional, and gives us avenues to organize and petition for change. Just look at the concealed carry revolution (still waiting on our turn in MD) for an example where people have a concern, have a solution, and make a lot of noise to get it. Several of the landmark Supreme court cases that broadened civil rights in the past were brought through legal avenues, resulting from citizens challenging unjust "infringements" of one type or another. I think that it is fair to say most of us have a much more in depth interest in civil/gun rights and law than the average person, and it would be good advice to research the law to better understand it's implications, ways to improve it, and educate others to build support for our position, and to possibly better our chances with recording encounters in legal ways, and to be knowledgeable in the skills and resources needed to help, writing to the media, reps and the like. It all comes down to the fact that the vast majority of LEO's are putting themselves in harms way to enforce laws meant to better society, weither the laws actually do, or if in practice violate costitutional or personal rights is for the courts to decide, and even if in fact the officer has not operated within the law itself.
 
I don't know about this. It may all depend on the jurisdiction. Let's say I am charged with jaywalking and I refuse to give my name. The officer may "escort" me to the local courthouse to pay my fine but I don't think that failing to show ID will automatically result in time in jail. A LEO might detain me for a bit to find out if there is something to charge me with but at some point they have to let me go, anonymously. If I recall what I learned on "Law and Order" correctly it's something like 48 hours. (I know TV is not the best source for legal advice.)
This is a side issue, but inability to identify someone who is being charged with an offesne, even a traffic offense, is, almost everywhere, something for which you will be arrested. Why? Because if you give a false name and get away with a minor traffic offense, big deal. But, if you give someone else's name for a minor traffic offense, then don't show up for trial (which, presumably, you would not do if you gave false ID), an arrest warrant will be issued for that other, innocent, person. You wanna talk about a Kafka-esque nightmare? How's about the cops showing up on your doorstep and arresting you for a crime you didn't commit?

Obviously, no one wins in that situation, and it is something the law is designed to avoid. The way it avoids such mistakes is requiring officers to positively ID people that it charges with crimes, or to take them before a magistrate for arraignment. The way the latter half of this is accomplished is by arrest. A citation or a summons with your signature on it is a promise to appear (or resolve the matter via admission of guilt and payment of a fine) in lieu of arrest.

However, if you cannot be positively IDed (via ID card or other means, usually the in-car computer and ID photo database), there's little choice but arrest.

Mike
 
Can a State Make it a Crime to Refuse to Identify Yourself to the Police?
In a Narrow Ruling, the Supreme Court Says Yes

By MICHAEL C. DORF
----
Wednesday, Jun. 23, 2004

Earlier this week, in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the conviction of Larry Dudley Hiibel. Hiibel had violated a Nevada statute that requires persons temporarily detained on "reasonable suspicion" of criminal activity to identify themselves to a police officer.

Hiibel--who claimed he had done nothing wrong and was simply the victim of mistaken identity--believed he had no obligation to tell the officer his name. But the Court found that neither Hiibel's Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures, nor his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, was violated.

In so doing, the Court took some liberties in construing its own past precedents, prompting four Justices to dissent. But despite its technical deficiencies, the Hiibel decision does not threaten civil liberties.

Nor does it, as some commentators have suggested, pave the way for a system of compulsory national identification cards. Moreover, even if it did, such a system would not necessarily be unwise or unconstitutional.

Background: Fourth Amendment Doctrine on Warrantless Search and Arrest

The Fourth Amendment prohibits "unreasonable searches and seizures," and authorizes search and arrest warrants only upon a showing of "probable cause" that a crime has been committed. This language has been construed by the Supreme Court to require that in most circumstances, the police must obtain a warrant for a search or an arrest.

But there are exceptions to the warrant requirement, including for "exigent circumstances": where an emergency prevents the police from obtaining a warrant from a neutral magistrate, they may perform a warrantless search or arrest--if the facts known to them establish probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed.

In addition, there is an exception to the "probable cause" requirement for a warrantless search or arrest. In the 1968 case of Terry v. Ohio, the Court held that police could "stop and frisk" a suspect on "reasonable suspicion" that he had already committed, or was about to commit, a crime. Such a pat-down search, of course, would be warrantless.

It has been generally understood that the "reasonable suspicion" standard is qualitatively and quantitatively lower than the "probable cause" standard that applies to full searches and arrests. Why was a lesser standard appropriate? The Court reasoned that because a stop and frisk subjects the suspect to a lesser forfeiture of his liberty, it could be justified by a lesser burden of proof--hence, the "reasonable suspicion" standard.

Later, in 1979, the Court refused to go further, and establish a standard even lower than "reasonable suspicion." In Brown v. Texas, it held that absent reasonable suspicion of criminality, the police may not simply stop people on the street and ask for their names.


SNIP---


The Limited Issue Resolved in Hiibel

The issue in Hiibel was whether someone who had been lawfully subject to a Terry stop--that is, someone as to whom the police did have reasonable suspicion--can also be required to provide his name to the police officer who stopped him.

The Justices answered yes. But they divided 5-4 on the issue.

All nine Justices agreed that a person who is not behaving in a way that gives rise to an articulable suspicion of criminality may not be required to state his name or show identification. All nine Justices also agreed that under the Court's prior precedents, the police could ask a person who has been subject to a Terry stop for his name.

The only disagreement that split the Justices--and the specific issue the case addressed--was whether the person could be prosecuted for failing to answer that question.
 
Supreme Court refuses Gilmore due process case
By Michael Hampton
Posted: January 9, 2007 3:26 pm

On Monday the Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of a Ninth Circuit appeals court decision which found that Americans do not have a “right to travel by any particular form of transportation” and do not have the right to know the laws and regulations they must obey.

The justices let stand without comment the January 2006 appeals court decision.

In 2002, John Gilmore attempted twice to board an airplane without showing government-issued identification and was denied boarding both times. Officials repeatedly refused to show him a law or regulation which required him to show ID, claiming it was sensitive security information, and he went to court.

Copies of the security directive in question have been leaked and have been available on the Internet for years. It does not require passengers to show identification, but does require that anyone who does not show identification go through secondary screening and requires special handling procedures for their checked baggage.

But Gilmore’s Supreme Court appeal wasn’t about being asked to show ID so much as being asked to follow a law without being able to know what the law says.

According to a statement by the Identity Project, which Gilmore heads and funds, “We must insist that our elected representatives control the TSA, and hold it accountable for its actions by, first, demanding that it make public this and any other laws it promulgates to bind the public.” — 27B Stroke 6

Gilmore calls secret law “an abomination” and says that it violates his right to due process. But now, with the refusal of the Supreme Court to hear this case, Americans can be subject to secret laws. Didn’t think that sort of thing could happen here? It can now.

Oh, and as the Ninth Circuit said in its decision, “the Constitution does not guarantee the right to travel by any particular form of transportation.” You don’t have the right to travel either, according to these people.
 
"I don't know where people have gotten the idea that police were somehow more observant of rights in the era prior to the Miranda case..."

Because they're young, ignorant of the facts or both?

Maybe they've been reading the Democrats' (and other Chicken Littles') press releases about how horrible everything is in this country.

Every generation seems to think the times they live in are the worst ever.

John
 
IA Farmboy;

It may be different where you live, but everywhere I know about, failing to give your name will result in being booked into jail. This is, in a sense, different from "jail time", since you're not being sentenced to jail. You're being booked into, and held, since without knowing your name bail cannot be granted. The appellate courts have held that since the state "has a compelling reason" to know your name if you're charged with a crime, you can be held indefinitely until you are ID'ed, even much longer than the original offense would have entailed. Theorectically, there would come a point at which the court could rule that continued pre-trial detention is not likely to compel you to reveal your name, and at that point you could be released. In the past, in other cases, this could be as long as 3 years. However, in the future, courts could make this as long as necessary.

Also, although we don't really have a mechanism for taking someone directly to the courthouse to pay a fine where I live, I highly doubt an officer would do so. If you're being a butthead, he'll book you and let the courts handle it.

I can't comment about your college town's cops and their process for processing DIPs (drunk in public). Perhaps they looked the other way?

I know in my college town, if you gave a false name to a cop, they booked you and then linked the false name you gave them to your real name as an aka. For the rest of your life, whenever you're run through the DMV system, the returns come back "John Smith, aka Buster Hymen". In fact, just a couple of months ago, a buddy of mine from my college days was telling me that he was in the DMV renewing his license, and the DMV clerk pulled up his record, and gets this condescending frown on her face and asked him point blank: "is your aka Buster Hymen?". He got red-faced, and laughed, and explained his drunken frat boy prank. He asked her to remove it from the system, and she said she couldn't, it's linked in the database. You never think that those things will haunt you.

-John
 

Then since you are asking a hypothetical question, the context you provided was very poor since it resulted in the focus on issues not associated with your question, as you anticipated.

You did not need such context with extraneous information about a supposed event reported from one side about supposed police inappropriate action. You simply needed to ask what we would do in a case of police making illegal entry. The context you provided was wholly unnecessary...and as you can see, resulted in considerable discussion not related to your real question.

It is rather like dealing with a large group of children. If you want action from a large group of people, you can't provide them with too many instructions. It might work one on one, but not one on many where the many are apt to focus on the wrong things.
 
This discussion has evolved into one about presenting ID and not about how to respond to an officer breaking into your house, as the posted question asked.

An incident happend in Indianapolis in the 1980's that is relevant to this discussion. I lived in Indy at the time and followed this case closely.

The police responded to a call about dogs running around loose. An argument ensued between the dog owner and an officer. When the dog owner tired of arguing with the officer, he walked into his house and locked the door. The officer proceded to draw his weapon and kick-down the door. He searched through the house for the homeowner and was fatally shot when he confronted the homeowner.

After shooting the officer, the homeowner put down his weapon (a shotgun). The man was then shot, arrested, handcuffed, and thoroughly beaten by other officers.

The man was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, but he also won a sizeable lawsuit against the city of Indianapolis.

Faber, Matt John - Aug. 23, 1988

Patrolman Faber, 24, was shot in the back by Fred C. Sanders, 44, on Aug. 14, 1988, and died nine days later. Faber was responding to complaints by neighbors about Sanders' dogs running loose. Other officers at the scene returned fire wounding Sanders, who was also severely beaten. Because of police misconduct at the scene, a plea agreement was accepted in the case, and Sanders pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter. He was sentenced to seven years and served three. Sanders sued the police department in 1992 for their use of excessive force and was awarded $1.5 million by a jury. A federal judge later reduced that award to $78,000.


The above citation is from an Indianapolis Star website that documents officers that died in the line of duty. http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/law_enforcement/line_of_duty/deaths.html
 
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It is rather like dealing with a large group of children. If you want action from a large group of people, you can't provide them with too many instructions. It might work one on one, but not one on many where the many are apt to focus on the wrong things.

Hey! I resemble that statement!

Nonetheless, I think the whole ID argument is the linchpin of this case. That's what "allowed" the officer to use force. (Granted, the original "crime" won't stand up, but that's kind of immaterial) Failing to go with the program can turn a trivial issue into a major use of force in seconds. It's legally impossible to "defend yourself" from an officers lawful actions, since a lawful action is by definition not an assault.

Also, from what I understand, the Sanders incident resulted from the severe beating Sanders got after he was shot and in handcuffs, not for getting shot in the first place or for the officer's original actions. I don't think $78,000 is a particularly large award. Everyone came out a loser in this one. This begs Coronach's and my fundamental point; go along with the program, and if you're mistreated, sue later and laugh all the way to vegas in your private jet.

-John
 
RioShooter, I'm not sure what that proves. You have two issues in play- potential police misconduct before the fatal shooting, and proven misconduct afterwards. The lawsuit seems to have centered upon the second incident (and rightfully so...though I'm reminded that LE is the only profession in which someone can shoot the guy you've worked alongside for ten years, and you're still required to be polite, professional, and not whip the shooter's arse). The shooter plead guilty to shooting the officer in the first, and the cite makes no mention of police misconduct in the original entry of the home. It's worth noting that if he had submitted to his (seemingly) lawful arrest, no one would have been shot, not one would have been beaten, and we would not be discussing this matter.

John-

I'm not so sure that's what we have, here. It may be, but it's not clear. Was this a failure to comply with an ID request, and is entry into the home lawful? I dunno...that's going to hinge upon many factors, including why ID was requested, what the local statutes say, what local caselaw says, and if the refusal to ID generated a charge like obstructing (as can happen if you're working on a report), and if that charge, in turn, was valid (in light of case and statutory law), and whether or not an arrest on that second charge was attempted. My guess, and I freely admit this is a guess, is that the officer was attempting to issue them a citation, and they refused to comply, which moved it from a summons in lieu of arrest to an arrest. The defendants then tried the old "You can't arrest me, I just stepped into my house!" routine, and it all went downhill from there. If that's the case (and I don't know that it is), it means that the officer was trying to resolve the situation in the least intrusive way possible (citation or summons in lieu of arrest) and was not getting the cooperation necessary to make that happen, so it went up a notch (arrest), and then further cooperation was not forthcoming (flight into the house), so it then went up another notch. Again, this is a SWAG of how it could have ended up exactly this way even if the officer did everythign right. It could also end up this way of the officer lost is temper and violated the law.

Mike
 
So basically if the officers at the scene had not beaten him, just arrested him even in light of an exchange of gunfire between them there would have been no case.

Even in the face of the officer drawing a gun and kicking a door down to pursue the guy into his own home where the guy shot and killed the officer and was convicted of that offense.
 
I can't believe the amount of anti-cop bovine scatology that's being thrown around here...

The police were in the middle of a misdemeanor criminal investigation. rule number one is to figure out 1) Has a crime been committed and if so, 2) who's committing it.

Had this been something like shoplifting, the cops would have been justified in detaining the alleged doer until they've determined a crime occured and that the detained did it. If the detainee ran, whether he was guilty or not, the cops would have been justified to pursue and hold until their investigation was complete. They may also have the right to withold ID from the cops, but the cops have the right to hold them indefinately until they are positively ID'd. If they run, they can be pursued and captured.

The same rules apply here. Someone called the cops complaining about a flag law being broken. In the process these bozo antiwar activists decided to run instead of standing up for their civil rights(?) Did the cops get rough? Probably, but I don't see anyone complaining when it's some shoplifter who get roughed up.

BTW I expect the flag desecration to be revisited by the SCOTUS and probably overturned, hopefully.
 
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