Teen Shoots Home Invader

[Flopsweat]

... Some rudimentary home defense training and an operational plan could have reduced the risk.

...

The kid moved his siblings to a more secure location and took up a defensive position between them and the threat. That's pretty close to my own operational plan. The fact that he hit the bad guy with one shot while under stress would lean more toward him having some training than against it.

More planning and training might have been better, but I see no indication that there was none.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Flopsweat: The kid moved his siblings to a more secure location and took up a defensive position between them and the threat.

Getting his siblings upstairs was certainly the right thing to do, but I saw nothing about his having taken up a defensive position.

According to this report, the boy returned to the top of the stairs after retrieving the firearm and was faced with the point of a gun. Not to appear to criticize his motives, but taking up a defensive position would have been less risky.

The fact that he hit the bad guy with one shot while under stress would lean more toward him having some training than against it.

It does indicate that he knew how to handle the firearm effectively.

 

[foghornl]

I have been more than casually observing the "nooz reports" of home invasions, etc since I was a victim of that 30+ years back. The mindset of the Criminal Element has shifted from 'take the money and run' to 'Leave NO breathing witness behind'.

A tip o' the hat and "Job Well Done" to that young man for defending home & siblings.

 

[Texan Scott]

Unistat, home invasion robbers carry guns here in Texas,too...

 

[Kleanbore]

Let's stay on topic here, folks. Had to delete a couple.

 

[C0untZer0]

This had me loking up the Illinois law

(720 ILCS 5/24-9) states "(a) Except as provided in subsection (c), it is unlawful for any person to store or leave, within premises under his or her control, a firearm if the person knows or has reason to believe that a minor under the age of 14 years who does not have a Firearm Owners Identification Card is likely to gain access to the firearm without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or person having charge of the minor, and the minor causes death or great bodily harm with the firearm, unless the firearm is:
(1) secured by a device or mechanism, other than the firearm safety, designed to render a firearm temporarily inoperable; or
(2) placed in a securely locked box or container; or
(3) placed in some other location that a reasonable person would believe to be secure from a minor under the age of 14 years.
(b) Sentence. A person who violates this Section is guilty of a Class C misdemeanor and shall be fined not less than $1,000. A second or subsequent violation of this Section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) Subsection (a) does not apply:
(1) if the minor under 14 years of age gains access to a firearm and uses it in a lawful act of self-defense or defense of another; or
(2) to any firearm obtained by a minor under the age of 14 because of an unlawful entry of the premises by the minor or another person."

Because of subsection C the parents would be safe from prosecution in Illinois.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If the man is entering the house weapon drawn, I'm 99.99% sure he was there to kill.

Got to be more to this story. Burglars usually don't carry guns.

Having a gun out when making entry does not indicate that the guy was there to kill. If anything, it indicates that he was hoping to keeping from happening what did happen to him. Having a gun out would be prudent when breaking into somebody else's home. And yes, lots of burglars do carry guns.

The fact that he hit the bad guy with one shot while under stress would lean more toward him having some training than against it.

It is hard to tell from a single shot whether the kid had any training or not. He did handle it effectively, but whether that was a fluke or not cannot be ascertained from the information given.

Strangely, the kid didn't call 911 or have his siblings call 911 which is interesting from their own home, not until after the shooting and only then after he and his siblings left his own home and went to a neighbor's home.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...oting-gun-wielding-intruder-article-1.1101484
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=664924

Back in January, there was this similar incident...
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/10553140/
The would-be intruder was killed. The 14 year old boy protected his 17 year old sister and himself.

2009, 10 year old shoots two armed invaders, protecting 8 year old sister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4iDVcvc4U

 

[Flopsweat]

Getting his siblings upstairs was certainly the right thing to do, but I saw nothing about his having taken up a defensive position.

According to this report, the boy returned to the top of the stairs after retrieving the firearm and was faced with the point of a gun. Not to appear to criticize his motives, but taking up a defensive position would have been less risky.

It does indicate that he knew how to handle the firearm effectively.

Not to belabor the point, but you made the assertion that they didn't have rudimentary home defense training and an operational plan. I'm simply tyring to show that the evidence does not support that view, not that they did in fact have training or a plan. Fair enough? (I am NOT trying to be a smart***)

Arming himself and going to the top of the stairs counts as a defensive position for me, especially considering his age. It placed him between the threat and his charges and on high ground. It also proved to be an effective position in this case. If it still doesn't work for you I'll concede the point.

I think we both agree that the kid did a great job protecting his loved ones and deserves nothing but praise. And comfort and support. Poor kid just had to take a life.

 

[Godsgunman]

Good for him! It looks to me that the parents trained him well enough and trusted him enough to handle a situation like that. We can debate tactics until our face turns blue, fact is this brave young boy saved the lives of himself and his siblings the best he knew how. I pray that he will not be traumatized by this experience but will be able to grow and learn and realize how blessed he is and that he is a hero.
As far as not calling 911 from the house, I see no problem from that. He thought it prudent to get out of the house and to the safety of a neighbors house as quickly as possible. His house was already broken inot and unsafe, why remain in an unsafe location? Have you been in that situation? Will you make all the "right" choices? Again for a young boy he did a great and valiant thing and defended his family, give him a break!

 

[GEM]

HLN with Robin Meade had a short factual report of the incident with a cop praising the young man.

It should have impact on thinking people (now what am I thinking - ).

 

[WardenWolf]

It sounds to me like there wasn't time to call 911. He had just enough time to usher his siblings to a safer location and retrieve the gun before they broke in. He did the best he could in the time allotted. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away, and he likely realized that making that phone call would not instantly teleport a squad car to his house.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Flopsweat: Arming himself and going to the top of the stairs counts as a defensive position for me, especially considering his age.

It would appear from the report that he went forth to confront the intruder; if so, that cannot be considered a defensive tactic, and age doesn't change that.

It placed him between the threat and his charges and on high ground.

...which helps, I guess, until he is shot.

It also proved to be an effective position in this case.

As it turns out, the intruder did not fire first. That may be attributable to luck.

The most rudimentary training does call for getting family members to safety, but it also calls for getting them with you in a safe position and letting the threat come to you.

Of course, the young man may have underestimated the threat and/or gone to get a cell phone. Any one of us might have ended up in the same position if we had not yet thought a forced entry to be about to occur.

I think we both agree that the kid did a great job protecting his loved ones and deserves nothing but praise. And comfort and support.

Yep.

Poor kid just had to take a life.

The burglar is expected to be released from the hospital in a few days.

The take away point for me is that if a child is old enough and mature enough to be left at home, it is important to equip that child it the means--tools, skills, and knowledge--to avoid tragedy, whether from a home invader, fire, or storm.

 

[Owen Sparks]

In Arizona it can be presumed that the typical homeowner is likely armed. Anyone who would break in to an occupied dwelling knowing this should be considered EXTREMLY DANGEROUS! Sane rational people would not pick a home to burglarize knowing that they stand a good chance of being shot. This was not a typical burglar.

 

[WardenWolf]

In Arizona it can be presumed that the typical homeowner is likely armed. Anyone who would break in to an occupied dwelling knowing this should be considered EXTREMLY DANGEROUS! Sane rational people would not pick a home to burglarize knowing that they stand a good chance of being shot. This was not a typical burglar.

This was a home invader, NOT a burglar. A burglar is trying to avoid encountering anyone. As a result, they either break in when they don't expect anyone to be home or try to quietly break in at night when they expect the occupants are sleeping. A burglar usually runs if discovered.

A home invader, on the other hand, breaks in with the full expectation there will be people there. As a result, they are armed and prepared for an encounter with any occupants. They are willing to kill if they have to in order to get what they want. They either simply do not care that people are there, or hope that the occupants will be able to help them get into safes and lockboxes they otherwise would be unable to access.

Knowing this distinction is important, and it is why I will shoot on sight any intruder who continues into my home after setting off the alarm. If an intruder has set off an alarm and continues anyway, he obviously is prepared to face any occupants. By Arizona law, I only have to feel my life or safety is threatened, and it is perfectly rational to believe that someone who is willing to continue into a potentially occupied dwelling after already alerting the occupants has the will and means to do me harm. I already have my plan of action, and I already know under what circumstances I will pull that trigger. If they don't run when the alarm goes off, they've had their chance.

 

[Skribs]

Warden, the presence of an alarm doesn't confirm for the burglar that someone is home. Still, I agree with you. If someone is willing to break into my home, I consider my safety threatened until they retreat, surrender, or can't physically do either.

 

[WardenWolf]

I never inferred it did. However, it does tell him that, if someone IS home, they're now alerted to his presence. If he doesn't leave immediately, it's only logical to assume he's prepared to encounter any occupants.

 

[lemaymiami]

Can't speak to the reported facts on this incident except to note that however he decided to act, things worked out favorably for that young man and his siblings...

I can speak about burglars from long experience.... Most are not intending to harm anyone (although it might happen..) - they're usually just hoping to steal and get away without any confrontation. That said, standing between a burglar and his/her means of leaving can turn ugly....

A small percentage of burglars are as dangerous an individual as you'll ever meet since they're actively looking for occupants to harm. In real life a "cat burglar" isn't David Niven after the lady's jewelry... it's much more likely to be someone like the Night Stalker.... On the street experienced cops are always looking for prowlers that might actually be one of those 5% of bad guys that are the real item - someone who intends to harm and is willing to enter an occupied house to do it.

As a result here's the advice I'd give anyone faced with someone trying to gain entry to an occupied dwelling. In a loud tone of voice shout out that you've called the police and they should leave, retreat to a place of safety and prepare to defend yourself and your family. Only act after they've actually gotten inside, but act decisively and without hesitation. Your life and lives of your family may depend on it. We'll worry about the fallout afterwards...

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^^

Good input

 

[Alaska444]

This was not a burglary, it was home invasion where the intruders knew the house was occupied. Very different situation than a simple robbery. Home invasions are more often violent and outcomes worse than in a robbery where the burglars are expecting to get in and out without anyone seeing them. With home invasions you must be prepared to meet force with force. Not necessarily so with a typical burglary which is most commonly the smash and grab sort perpetrated by teens.

 

[Kleanbore]

With home invasions you must be prepared to meet force with force. Not necessarily so with a typical burglary which is most commonly the smash and grab sort perpetrated by teens.

Not necessarily so, but a woman in a good neighborhood in St. Louis County was murdered when she came home to find two teens rifling through valuables.

 

[rajb123]

this is why gun safes and trigger locks are not safe....

 

[Alaska444]

Today, 11:28 AM #45
Kleanbore
Moderator


Join Date: August 13, 2008
Posts: 3,154
Quote:
With home invasions you must be prepared to meet force with force. Not necessarily so with a typical burglary which is most commonly the smash and grab sort perpetrated by teens.
Not necessarily so, but a woman in a good neighborhood in St. Louis County was murdered when she came home to find two teens rifling through valuables.

Sad case for sure Kleanbore. Unfortunately, we have had experience in our neighborhood in Southern CA with both home invasions and smash and grab robberies. In the home invasion type robberies, direct violence was part of the MO. With the smash and grab robberies, when confronted the kids ran off.

It is difficult to find stats on home invasions since the sites are tied to selling you their product, but the general concept is that home invasions where the creeps know the people are home are considered the more dangerous encounter although you are right, any burglary can result in violence. Any person you encounter in your home could potentially be armed and dangerous. Some states consider anyone in your home by that means potentially dangerous and lethal force is justified.

I have taken several measures in my own home where I consider anyone that got past the external barriers a severe risk. I have bars on some of my windows and the sliding glass door and ACE security glass on the others which hopefully completely eliminates the risk of smash and grab entries or a very high likelihood of preventing their entry.

I have further internal barriers when we are sleeping and anyone trying to get into my bedroom in that circumstance is not after my VCR if you know what I mean. In that situation, the barriers on the door will allow me time to get to my shotgun or .357 beside me (hopefully). I must assume that anyone that could breach my door has violence intended since it would take a very violent act to breach it. In that situation, I would meet force with force. Hopefully, the precautions I have taken will preclude that situation but nothing is 100%.

 

[Skribs]

Not necessarily so, but a woman in a good neighborhood in St. Louis County was murdered when she came home to find two teens rifling through valuables.

So, home invasion = intent to do harm. Burglary = possible willingness to do harm.

Either way, someone breaks in, would you agree it's safe to assume they're willing to do harm until they prove otherwise? I'm not saying shoot without IDing target, but after IDing the target as a burglar, it is safe to assume they are a hostile?

 

[Alaska444]

Depends on what state in this union you are in. That is not necessarily a good assumption in LA county for instance especially if you shoot a 14 yo kid doing a smash and grab robbery in your house who is unarmed. You still have to have all of the elements of Self Defense to justify a shooting whether in your home or not.

 

[Skribs]

I didn't necessarily say to shoot right away, but if you see that 14 year old smashing pots and stealing Top Ramen and bagels, at least grab your gun and be very verbally forceful, as opposed to just sauntering up and trying to scare him off with mere presence.

That 14 year old might have a gun, and teenagers are notorious for believing in their own invulnerability.