Adding Crimp to existing .30-30 loads

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Harriw

Harriw

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Hey folks - bit of an oddball question here. I'm still fairly new to this, when when I started loading .30-30 a year or so ago .223/5.56 was the only other rifle round I was loading. I was well aware that it was not necessary to crimp 2.23/5.56 rounds. Based on that limited experience, and a lack of finding anything to the contrary in my reading, research, etc., I didn't realize that OTHER rifle rounds do sometimes call for a crimp of some sort. So I went right ahead and worked up a load for .30-30 without crimping them. I did of course check a number of those rounds for set-back (just using the old "use-your-thumb-to-push-the-bullet-into-the-edge-of-your-bench-and-try-to-get-the-bullet-to-set-back-into-the-case" test), and was quite satisfied that they were good and solid.

Subsequently, I discovered the raging debate over whether or not .30-30 should be crimped in order to ensure there's no setback due to the tube magazine most .30-30 rounds are used in. Since I use them in a Winchester 94, of course I'm all concerned now. I did go and pick up a Lee FCD in .30-30 so I can apply a crimp rather easily now.

My question is - can I safely apply a slight crimp to an existing load I've worked up? Or would you consider that enough of a change to the load that I should start over and work this load back up including the crimp? For reference, I'm using the Hornady 150 gr. RN Interlock (#3035) with 30 gr. of H335. That's a relatively light load for that bullet so I think I'm probably fine. I tested up through 34 gr., but stopped there due to some case forming that I wasn't keen on (book max is 35 gr). Even so, I do believe this would technically be considered "against the rules," no?

I'm aware there's some disagreement over whether a crimp should be applied for tube-loaded cartridges for .30-30 and didn't really want to drag that debate in here - just curious if people think I'm safe applying a crimp to these loads, or if I'm better off using them as-is (either single loading, or multi-loading them accepting the risk) and working up a new load using a crimp. Just for reference, I have 40 or 60 of these loaded up (sorry, can't remember whether I loaded 2 or 3 boxes). So it's not like we're talking about tons of them.

Thanks!
 
Applying crimp is a minor change and on a middle of the road load should not be a major change. The Fcd is a very powerful tool that can distort the bullet easily. Test your crimp on dummy rounds first to prevent damaging your loaded rounds.
 
Howdy, welcome to the forum.

If it were me, I'd crimp them. Crimp will raise pressure, but only on the order of 2k-5k psi. First off, you're not working with a gun and cartridge that is going to show pressure signs, like a bolt gun in 30-06. Pressure signs in a 30-30 means you are way over max. From memory, 42k is max pressure for 30-30.

I wouldn't go back to 34 grains and add a crimp, I'd work back up to that.
 
Have you checked the last round in the gun for OAL change? If you have, and no change, I would not change a thing. I don't crimp my any rounds for my AR15's and AR10. If you have enough neck tension it's not needed. The main thing on a tubular magazine is using a bullet profile (RN) so you don't set off a round in the tube magazine.

I've tested with and without crimp. I get better groups without crimping.

If the bullet has a cannelure, and it's in the correct position for you to crimp, you can if you want to. Just be aware any change you made may impact your current accuracy of the load.
 
Harriw said:
Subsequently, I discovered the raging debate over whether or not .30-30 should be crimped in order to ensure there's no setback due to the tube magazine most .30-30 rounds are used in.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware there was a raging debate... crimping ammos going into a tubular magazine is a no-brainer. FWIW, my view is that crimping will raise pressure less than a bullet set back into the case, particularly under a powder like H335, which can get a little peaky near the top of the load range. It doesn't have to be the patented Charlie98 Death Grip Crimp, which I used a lot in my early days of reloading... smashing and distorting my bullets, while overworking my brass... but just knocking in the case mouth to prevent bullet setback. Again, FWIW, I crimp everything going into a tubular magazine, otherwise, no, to include my AR's. I do taper crimp my ammos going into my M1 and M1a's blasting ammo, but that's just for fun, and likely not necessary.
 
Searching "Hornady 150 gr. RN Interlock (#3035)" I see it is a bullet with a cannelure in the jacket and an exposed round lead nose bullet.

The case mouth should be be lightly crimped into the cannelure so that if the bullet does try to set back, the case mouth stops on the front edge of the cannelure.
The crimp to prevent bullet set back in a tube feed lever action does not need to dig into the jacket.

I have reloaded for .30-30 for decades and currently own a Marlin 336W lever-action and a Savage 24 .30-30 over 12ga combination gun. When I load plain jacketed bullets, they are for single shot use without crimping. I always crimp bullets with channelures and exposed lead round or flat nose for use in both my .30-30s.
 
Ru4real said:
Curious. How do you know this to be fact? I’ve not seen testing, and I’d like to read if you have a source. Thanks!
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken, it's from the Speer tenth manual. They pressure tested 308, using the same load but changing variables including crimp to show each ones affect on pressure. The test showed that when all the changes was made together, the pressure increased over max allowable from what was an otherwise safe load.

I went back an looked through the Speer tenth and I cannot find the reference. I will see of if I can find it.

I cannot find it. I've looked through Speer 6,8,10, Hornady 2, Lyman 46,47,49. It must have been in a manual I read online, or previously and let go. I know I've read the lee 1 and lyman 45 also, as well as all the cast lyman manuals. I would have bet it was in the Speer 10th. Now I'm on the hunt. When I find it I'll see if i can then find this thread and update it.
 
Last edited:
Harriw said:
Hey folks - bit of an oddball question here. I'm still fairly new to this, when when I started loading .30-30 a year or so ago .223/5.56 was the only other rifle round I was loading. I was well aware that it was not necessary to crimp 2.23/5.56 rounds. Based on that limited experience, and a lack of finding anything to the contrary in my reading, research, etc., I didn't realize that OTHER rifle rounds do sometimes call for a crimp of some sort. So I went right ahead and worked up a load for .30-30 without crimping them. I did of course check a number of those rounds for set-back (just using the old "use-your-thumb-to-push-the-bullet-into-the-edge-of-your-bench-and-try-to-get-the-bullet-to-set-back-into-the-case" test), and was quite satisfied that they were good and solid.

Subsequently, I discovered the raging debate over whether or not .30-30 should be crimped in order to ensure there's no setback due to the tube magazine most .30-30 rounds are used in. Since I use them in a Winchester 94, of course I'm all concerned now. I did go and pick up a Lee FCD in .30-30 so I can apply a crimp rather easily now.

My question is - can I safely apply a slight crimp to an existing load I've worked up? Or would you consider that enough of a change to the load that I should start over and work this load back up including the crimp? For reference, I'm using the Hornady 150 gr. RN Interlock (#3035) with 30 gr. of H335. That's a relatively light load for that bullet so I think I'm probably fine. I tested up through 34 gr., but stopped there due to some case forming that I wasn't keen on (book max is 35 gr). Even so, I do believe this would technically be considered "against the rules," no?

I'm aware there's some disagreement over whether a crimp should be applied for tube-loaded cartridges for .30-30 and didn't really want to drag that debate in here - just curious if people think I'm safe applying a crimp to these loads, or if I'm better off using them as-is (either single loading, or multi-loading them accepting the risk) and working up a new load using a crimp. Just for reference, I have 40 or 60 of these loaded up (sorry, can't remember whether I loaded 2 or 3 boxes). So it's not like we're talking about tons of them.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

If it were me, I'd crimp five to ten rounds, test fire them at the range, and as long as accuracy wasn't adversely affected, I'd crimp the rest. I certainly wouldn't pull them and go back to the drawing board.

I crimp all of my rounds using Lee FC dies. I like the consistency of having a crimp. I do worry that neck tension will vary from round to round, especially since I load mixed brass for most of what I reload (besides rifle target/hunting rounds). Having the crimp gives me peace of mind. To be fair, I've never put it to the test, and personally compared crimped vs. uncrimped.

243winxb said:
Your safe. Crimp away.

The military was having a problem with delayed Ignition in 7.62 using WC846 ball powder.

Test results at different temperatures.View attachment 1047822
Click to expand...

Those are very interesting results. Do you have a link to where this came from?
 
crimp some dummy rounds first. you can bulge cases putting a crimp on. If your brass isn't trimmed exactly the same, any cases slightly longer will feel harder running the crimp and those are the ones I'd check more than once for bulges. If any of the cases are real long, you'll muffin top the bullet, not that I'd know ...
 
I would crimp them if using them in a tubular magazine for sure. I would do as recommended and use some dummy rounds for a crimp test. I agree with @Charlie98 a bullet set back will raise pressures a lot more than a crimp.
 
film495 said:
crimp some dummy rounds first. you can bulge cases putting a crimp on. If your brass isn't trimmed exactly the same, any cases slightly longer will feel harder running the crimp and those are the ones I'd check more than once for bulges. If any of the cases are real long, you'll muffin top the bullet, not that I'd know ...
Click to expand...
I don't think a Lee FCD has the ability to bulge cases. It crimps very differently than most seating/crimp dies. I'm not saying you can't over-crimp with one, because you can, but I just can't see how it would bulge cases.
 
GravelRider said:
I don't think a Lee FCD has the ability to bulge cases. It crimps very differently than most seating/crimp dies. I'm not saying you can't over-crimp with one, because you can, but I just can't see how it would bulge cases.
Click to expand...
I have no experience with Lee FCD, my appologies. My experience is with RCBS and Hornady crimp dies.
 
film495 said:
I have no experience with Lee FCD, my appologies. My experience is with RCBS and Hornady crimp dies.
Click to expand...
Not a problem. The FCD uses a collet to apply even pressure perpendicular to the case mouth from four sides. After discovering the FCD dies, I do all of my crimping with Lee factory crimp dies. It's probably the only Lee product that I wholeheartedly endorse, regardless of budget.
 
Yea a Lee FCD wont bulge casings. It squeezes the neck around the bullet. I did bulge 2 casings slightly with a Lyman tapper crimp die. I had it adjusted to far down. I don't like the mark the Lee FCD leaves though.
 
Crimp away!
That 30.0gr load of 335 is quite light.
With the 150gr Hornady RN, the problem you’re going to have is not magazine set-back, but lack of expansion on game.
30.0gr is going to be running that bullet about 2,000fps from a 20”bbl. that bullet doesn’t expand well below ~1,700fps impact speed. I’ve shot and lost deer with it back in ‘80’s using ACCURATE loads, but when chronographed were found to be lacking in sufficient speed.

The best performance I’ve seen from that bullet was on the largest white tail anybody in my family has killed. Weight was over 250lb live weight 10point. My brother shot the deer broadside in left shoulder. We recovered perfectly mushroomed bullet from opposite shoulder under hide. Weighs 138gr..
His muzzle velocity was 2,350fps from 34.0gr of H4895. Range was about 40yds.
He passed away 2yrs later. I still have rifle and remaining ammo from same batch, ready to go!

He had several.30/06 (M1, REM 700), and a .243. But his favorite was the M94 .30/30.
It wears a Williams Sour dough rear sight and Ivory front bead. He killed the last 5 deer he took with it.

We’ve killed a LOT of deer with that Hornady bullet (and numerous others).
That slow load will let you down past 60-80yds!
BTDT
A medium hard cast bullet will do better.... a LOT cheaper!
 
Hey folks - thanks very much for the wealth of responses! Sorry, I didn't mean to abandon the thread. The in-laws arrived yesterday, and I hadn't gotten back to the computer yet.

GravelRider said:
If it were me, I'd crimp five to ten rounds, test fire them at the range, and as long as accuracy wasn't adversely affected, I'd crimp the rest. I certainly wouldn't pull them and go back to the drawing board.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I do believe this is what I'll do. I'd like the peace of mind the crimp will provide, and this will let me confirm I'm not affecting accuracy.

GooseGestapo said:
Crimp away!
That 30.0gr load of 335 is quite light.
With the 150gr Hornady RN, the problem you’re going to have is not magazine set-back, but lack of expansion on game.
30.0gr is going to be running that bullet about 2,000fps from a 20”bbl. that bullet doesn’t expand well below ~1,700fps impact speed. I’ve shot and lost deer with it back in ‘80’s using ACCURATE loads, but when chronographed were found to be lacking in sufficient speed.

The best performance I’ve seen from that bullet was on the largest white tail anybody in my family has killed. Weight was over 250lb live weight 10point. My brother shot the deer broadside in left shoulder. We recovered perfectly mushroomed bullet from opposite shoulder under hide. Weighs 138gr..
His muzzle velocity was 2,350fps from 34.0gr of H4895. Range was about 40yds.
He passed away 2yrs later. I still have rifle and remaining ammo from same batch, ready to go!

He had several.30/06 (M1, REM 700), and a .243. But his favorite was the M94 .30/30.
It wears a Williams Sour dough rear sight and Ivory front bead. He killed the last 5 deer he took with it.

We’ve killed a LOT of deer with that Hornady bullet (and numerous others).
That slow load will let you down past 60-80yds!
BTDT
A medium hard cast bullet will do better.... a LOT cheaper!
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for that insight! I know 30 gr. H335 is a light load for that bullet, but was figuring a deer wouldn't notice much difference between 2000 and 2300 fps. And I'm not sure I would trust my eyesight with a shot much beyond 50-60 yards with iron sights anyway. But if you're seeing a lack of expansion then maybe it does matter after all. I'm actually not much of a hunter so these are really just plinking rounds. But I'll work up a hotter load just to have in case I do find myself in the deer woods. I actually really liked how 34 gr. H335 shot. But there was a bit more case forming than I was comfortable with. I wouldn't necessarily call it bulging, but you could start to see some of the chamber features showing in the brass down near the base. I figured for plinking rounds there was no point in burning up extra powder anyway. Besides, there is something quite satisfying about a .30-30 loading using the original 30 gr., even if it isn't the original powder (didnt I read somewhere that the original smokeless was basically H4895?)

Thanks again all! The amount of knowledge assembled here is simply astounding sometimes.
 
Memory here, I think the original 30-30 powder was lightening #2.

I generally match factory recoil and trajectory with 30-30. I'd rather have, a 3" group that matches factory power than a 2" that is 4" low with factory sighting notch. For me. The accuracy of a factory load is acceptable, but the power of a lighter load isn't.
 
Bazoo said:
Crimp will raise pressure, but only on the order of 2k-5k psi
Click to expand...

...and my guess is, that when using a cannelured bullet, those testing load recipes for 30-30, have crimped into the cannelure and their loads stats reflect as much. But I could be wrong.
 
Blue68f100 said:
...
I've tested with and without crimp. I get better groups without crimping.

If the bullet has a cannelure, and it's in the correct position for you to crimp, you can if you want to. Just be aware any change you made may impact your current accuracy of the load.
Click to expand...

Same here. Groups tightened up noticably without crimps.

Bazoo said:
If I'm not mistaken, it's from the Speer tenth manual. They pressure tested 308, using the same load but changing variables including crimp to show each ones affect on pressure. The test showed that when all the changes was made together, the pressure increased over max allowable from what was an otherwise safe load.

I went back an looked through the Speer tenth and I cannot find the reference. I will see of if I can find it.

I cannot find it. I've looked through Speer 6,8,10, Hornady 2, Lyman 46,47,49. It must have been in a manual I read online, or previously and let go. I know I've read the lee 1 and lyman 45 also, as well as all the cast lyman manuals. I would have bet it was in the Speer 10th. Now I'm on the hunt. When I find it I'll see if i can then find this thread and update it.
Click to expand...

I recall reading about crimps and the potential effects in Speer literature as well. However, a quick look at the Speer #12 manual shows all the bullets listed for the 30-30 with cannelures. That being the case, I'd give them a light crimp.
 
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