Adjustable sights? Not really worth while on this pistol

[Hunter2011]

I don't know if any of you can remember when I complained that my PT709 shoots low and left?
Today I really tried hard. I've adjusted the sights as much as it could go up and right.
At 10 meters, the range I want to zero the pistol at, I still need the poi to shift 1.0'' to the right, and 2.0 to 2.5'' up.
So it still shoots a little low and left.

In my opinion, I feel I don't do anything wrong. I really don't flinch. I am not anticipating the recoil. The recoil is easily managed. I shot maybe just over 200 rounds today. This pistol do not jump in my hands. I don't have to re-grip between shots. I exactly know when the trigger lets go. I feel I handle it well.

So what can I do to adjust the point of impact further? Can a gunsmith perhaps sort it out for me?

Group sizes, not complaining there.
I know it not a silhouette pistol, but I could manage to drop 3 chickens at 25 meters with a 7-shot magazine, after compensating and aiming just above the back of the chicken.

It is very disappointing to me. I bought this gun just because it is one, if not the only subcompact gun, with fully adjustable sights.
Now I must still compensate to hit where I aim. I sold my Vector CP1 just for this reason. Knowing what I know now, I should have rather kept it. 13-round magazine vs this one's 7 shot magazine. I traded shot count for better accuracy but failed

Please help out this disappointed guy.

 

[mgmorden]

Have someone else shoot it. That's always a check to make sure its not the shooter.

If its still hitting there, if you're using 115gr bullets you could try heavier ones - they tend to impact higher. 147gr would probably be close to right on if 115's are 2-2.5" low.

The 1" to the left bit - honestly, for a handgun, I wouldn't even care that much about. For my type of shooting 1" off at that distance isn't going to mean anything. Given the type of gun the 709 is its not really meant for precision shooting.

 

[WestKentucky]

Pt709 slim. Purpose built deep concealment auto... If it hits that close the I will take 2. Most carry guns of this sort are close left to right but are a foot low or more at this range. I have been told that it's because people naturally aim at the head so that puts the bullet right in the chest. I prefer that it hit where I aim it, and 2 inches off bullseye is pretty good for a gun in this class, especially in its price range.

 

[dcar_roll]

What helped with mine was using more of the pad of my trigger finger verses the tip. The trigger on these little pistols takes some getting used to. It is very easy to pull the pistol off target and not really notice it.

 

[BYJO4]

First, I would let someone else shoot it to see what the results are. If it still hits in the same area, you can try differnt ammo. The next option would be to have a gunsmith drift the front sight and possibly change the height of the front sight to get things lined up.

 

[MedWheeler]

Post 2 (your first reply here) echoes my response to your initial thread on this subject.

I leaned this in LE training. Thousands of rounds of training ammo was used (back in the day of .38 caliber wheelguns.) It was all commercially-sourced 158-grain LSWC reloads.

We were to shoot our actual "for-the-money" qualification scores with our agency-issued ammo, but would first shoot a couple of "practice runs" with the training stuff. My agency-issued duty ammo was Winchester 95-grain Silvertip +P HP rounds, and I noticed I had enough of it to shoot the last practice run with it, so I did.

My score tanked. My shots grouped horribly low. I had expected the "+P" stuff to have some kick, but the ultra-light bullet was just too quick in getting out of the muzzle to flip it back or up.

I was very glad that I had done that. While I did not have time to raise my rear sight on my issued S&W M67, I was able to aim higher to compensate, and my "real" scores got right back where they belonged (we shot the qual-course five times, dropped the lowest score, and averaged the remaining four for final score.)

 

[Hunter2011]

The next option would be to have a gunsmith drift the front sight and possibly change the height of the front sight to get things lined up.

I did not know it can be done. I thought if it is fixed it is fixed...
I see Taurus does not have a E-mail adress? I an in South Africa so a call that might not solve anything might get expensive. I just want to ask them whether there are not maybe replacement sights or something that can solve the problem. Here my pistol will be in a workshop for months, no matter how little or big the work is.

 

[hartcreek]

I do not remember you stating the ammo your ARE USING. Better loads will change you POA so you had better figure out a load and keep with it.

I finally got my Chiropractor motivated and he bought a gun.....Not my choice for a gun as he bought a Glock. His family has wrecking yard so he shoot there. He had been shooting a couple times and was running low on ammo so I worked a barter deal with him and loaded him up 1000 rounds. He had been shooting factory stuff on an outing and ran out and switched to my reloads. I saw him the next day and he commented that his POA had to be changed when he switched to my loads as my loads were hitting much higher as in a couple inches...I found out that he had never sighted in his gun in the first place and then he had switched to my loads. I only used 4.4 grains of Green Dot with 115 gr Berrys bullets but they sure landed higher compared tho the factory crap he had been shooting.

I loaded up another 250 rounds for someone else last night using Unique and 124 grain bullets and re seated a factory bullet thatr had recoil walked. I used a kinetic puller to open up the round and what a POS that factory ammo was. from the power I saw it sure was a weak sister.

 

[Grumulkin]

From photos, it appears that PT709 front sights are integral with the slide and not in a dovetail. If that's true, it will be impossible to "drift" the front sight for further adjustment. Since the rear sight is at its limits, the only way to further adjust the POI is with the load unless a gunsmith grinds down the front sight which may look a bit crappy and will only change POI on the vertical axis.

Going with a heavier bullet or reducing the load on the bullet you're shooting should bring the POI up. I can't say how a load will affect POI on the horizontal axis. Of the two choices, I'd try a heavier bullet first.

 

[Hunter2011]

I wonder what about shimming? Either the front or the rear sight? I dismantled the pistol today for cleaning. I wonder if I can put something between the screw and the front sight? Will that even work?

 

[MedWheeler]

You're still not telling us if you've tried ammo with heavier bullets (>115 grains.)

Are you dead-set on making the gun "work" with the 115-grain stuff? I don't know much about the shooter's environment in South Africa; what is ammo availability like?

 

[rcmodel]

Now I must still compensate to hit where I aim.
I sold my Vector CP1 just for this reason.

Seems to be a developing trend here?

Take mgmorden's advice in post #2 and have someone else shoot it.
Preferably someone who is a pretty good pistol shot.

What you think you are doing and what you are doing can be two completely different things.

rc

 

[Hunter2011]

Seems to be a developing trend here?

Take mgmorden's advice in post #2 and have someone else shoot it.
Preferably someone who is a pretty good pistol shot.

What you think you are doing and what you are doing can be two completely different things.

rc

No, other people on the range have shot with it.
And I get a lot of posts on the internet to suggest this is a issue with this gun. My shooting is just fine.

 

[Hunter2011]

You're still not telling us if you've tried ammo with heavier bullets (>115 grains.)

Are you dead-set on making the gun "work" with the 115-grain stuff? I don't know much about the shooter's environment in South Africa; what is ammo availability like?

Hi, no I have not tried heavier bullets.
The reason is my range ammo are FMJ 115gr. Therefore I want to stay with 115gr ammo for carry as well, JHP. I totally agree that using 147gr bullets might solve my problem. But I'd rather sort the gun out and shoot with the ammo I will use 100% of the time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Hi, no I have not tried heavier bullets.
The reason is my range ammo are FMJ 115gr. Therefore I want to stay with 115gr ammo for carry as well, JHP. I totally agree that using 147gr bullets might solve my problem. But I'd rather sort the gun out and shoot with the ammo I will use 100% of the time.

Sort the gun out using range ammo, but don't over-complicate things.

Get a box of 147 or 124 gr and try them, and see how that ammo performs compared to your range ammo. If the heavier bullets account for the POI difference, carry the heavier stuff, and know that when you're shooting at the range, the lighter stuff will shoot lower at the range.

If you EVER have to use the self defense ammo in a real-world confrontation, there won't be enough difference between the range and self-defense ammo UNDER 10 meters to matter -- particularly if you continue to use the sights in the same way (i.e., not compensating to raise the point of impact).

---

I don't remember when reading your first post whether you ever contacted Taurus about possible replacement sights for the gun. A lower front sight or a different rear...

 

[BSA1]

Raising the POI on your Taurus is easy. Merely file down the height of the front sight. It is important that you raise the POI with the load(s) you will be carrying and using the whatever shooting stance you use. Do NOT sight the gun off the bench as the POI will be different. We do this all the time with fixed sighted revolvers.

File slowly, use a dap of cold blue to reduce any glare, shoot and assess. I would spread the final sighting in over 2 or 3 sessions just to be sure of your shooting technique and loads.

While I am thinking are you shooting outdoors in sunlight with your gun?

 

[Claude Clay]

Hi, no I have not tried heavier bullets.
The reason is my range ammo are FMJ 115gr. Therefore I want to stay with 115gr ammo for carry as well, JHP. I totally agree that using 147gr bullets might solve my problem. But I'd rather sort the gun out and shoot with the ammo I will use 100% of the time.

if all the gas stations sell is 87 octane and you insist on buying a high-compression, high performance car -- you lose your right to complain about the vehicles performance.

try 125gr standard velocity ammo and
than try 147gr

than tell us how it is printing.

---eliminate possibilities one at a time

 

[Hunter2011]

I don't remember when reading your first post whether you ever contacted Taurus about possible replacement sights for the gun. A lower front sight or a different rear...

They don't have an email address, and I don't see any replacement parts for this pistol on their site.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

They should have a phone number. I've dealt with their customer service in the past, and you can usually talk to someone. Most gun makers have replacement sights available -- even if they don't show the parts on their web site. (That doesn't mean they have them for a gun with adjustable sights, however.)

Call them -- the cost of a phone call (if you don't have unlimited, nationwide) would be cheaper than buying/trying different sights. And, as noted, you can always file down the front sight if the front sight can't be replaced. And, if worse comes to worst and you must file away, use this tool to determine just how much you need to lower your front sight. It won't be much, but using this tool will take out most of the guess work. (BUT!!! DO let some others shoot it before you do anything, to be sure that it's the gun and not YOU.)

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13093/GunTechdetail/Sight_Correction_Calculator

 

[Hunter2011]

They should have a phone number. I've dealt with their customer service in the past, and you can usually talk to someone. Most gun makers have replacement sights available -- even if they don't show the parts on their web site. (That doesn't mean they have them for a gun with adjustable sights, however.)

Call them -- the cost of a phone call (if you don't have unlimited, nationwide) would be cheaper than buying/trying different sights. And, as noted, you can always file down the front sight if the front sight can't be replaced. And, if worse comes to worst and you must file away, use this tool to determine just how much you need to lower your front sight. It won't be much, but using this tool will take out most of the guess work. (BUT!!! DO let some others shoot it before you do anything, to be sure that it's the gun and not YOU.)

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13093/GunTechdetail/Sight_Correction_Calculator

According to this tool I need only to remove 0.7mm from the front sight.

 

[hentown]

If they say it's not the money, it's the money!! If they say it's not their grip and/or stance and/or trigger control, it's their grip and/or stance and/or trigger control!

The fact that the same "problem" existed with the OP's previously-owned pistol is pretty obvious evidence to me that the nut behind the trigger needs adjusting.

 

[Hunter2011]

If they say it's not the money, it's the money!! If they say it's not their grip and/or stance and/or trigger control, it's their grip and/or stance and/or trigger control!

The fact that the same "problem" existed with the OP's previously-owned pistol is pretty obvious evidence to me that the nut behind the trigger needs adjusting.

You must compare apples with apples please.
With this new pistol I shoot low and left, apparently a problem experienched with this pistol by a LOT of people.
With my old pistol, I shot a lot to the rightm big differense... What now? If it was me my old pistol would have also shot low and left, not right? Or is my argument flawed in some way?

 

[hentown]

Low and left is a pretty common indicator of bad trigger control, especially for right-handed shooters. Newbie Glock shooters are particularly prone to low-and-left, until they figure out the Glock trigger.