Advice from a lawyer
- Thread starter EddieCoyle
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Falstaff66
Member
For a civil case, expect the evil of your ammo will be made an issue, whether the "even the military doesn't use this" argument against hollowpoints, or the "overpenetration" arguments for FMJ. My suggestion is to document the choice of JHP and the valid reasons (reduced risk of overpenetration, transfer of energy "stopping power") in advance. A desire to kill the perp is going to be asserted as your reason for using that ammo, if you can document your decision, show Ayoob's articles that you read, etc., then you can more effectively rebut the argument that you really chose JHP to kill. Imagine how thoughtful and reasonable (and how much less dangerous) you will appear to the jury if you can document your decisionmaking process? Remember, in civil court the "reasonable person" standard will be critical.
ScottsGT
Member
Nope! Slime bag lawyer contacts parents of dead gang banger, wife of bad guy, 12 illegitimate children the bad guy didn't know he had, fourteen cousins, three dogs, two cats and a partridge in a pear tree and drags them all in court on "you violated bad guys civil rights and now you have to support everyone I've brought in here today."
scout26
Member
GGB,
My sister is a lawyer. She refers to herself as a "Shyster b*tch lawyer."
Remember: 99.9% of lawyers give the other .01% a bad name.
Just remember, the advice offered by the lawyer in the original post is worth exactly what you paid for it.
My sister is a lawyer. She refers to herself as a "Shyster b*tch lawyer."
Remember: 99.9% of lawyers give the other .01% a bad name.
Just remember, the advice offered by the lawyer in the original post is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Robert Hairless
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So what do the nice people who load their own carry ammunition do? I suppose that they can argue in court some of what they say here: "I make better ammunition than the big companies." Will that be convincing in a civil suit, do you think?
beerslurpy
member
I buy whatever is on sale. 40 rounds of 7.62x39 > 20 rounds of 40S&W, regardless of bullet design.
I will probably switch from FMJ to JSP if my crate of Wolf ever arrives. Nothing like fragmenting 30 cal to put the hurt on someone.
If someone criticizes my selection of ammunition, I will just innocently say "gosh I just bought it because it was on sale, I had no idea there was a difference!" And hope they dont find the articles I wrote on wikipedia lol evil bullet scientist. Even so, I am pretty confident that my use of rifles is politically correct at least as far as any form of self defense can be said to be politically correct.
I think poison would be largely wasted since you have to hit someone to deliver it. Additionally, the effect of the poison will be directly proportional to the distance the hit is to the target organ (usually CNS). A hit which would cause a rapid poison incapacitation would be even more likely to instantly kill someone from the wound trauma (a neck, face or chest hit for example). Natural drainage and clotting around the wound will also interfere with the poison's ability to spread to the rest of the body.
I will probably switch from FMJ to JSP if my crate of Wolf ever arrives. Nothing like fragmenting 30 cal to put the hurt on someone.
If someone criticizes my selection of ammunition, I will just innocently say "gosh I just bought it because it was on sale, I had no idea there was a difference!" And hope they dont find the articles I wrote on wikipedia lol evil bullet scientist. Even so, I am pretty confident that my use of rifles is politically correct at least as far as any form of self defense can be said to be politically correct.
I think poison would be largely wasted since you have to hit someone to deliver it. Additionally, the effect of the poison will be directly proportional to the distance the hit is to the target organ (usually CNS). A hit which would cause a rapid poison incapacitation would be even more likely to instantly kill someone from the wound trauma (a neck, face or chest hit for example). Natural drainage and clotting around the wound will also interfere with the poison's ability to spread to the rest of the body.
EmGeeGeorge
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- Aug 24, 2005
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- 806
rats!
How about granulated rat poison(in place of the buffering material) with bb's in 12 gauge "home defense loads"?
How about granulated rat poison(in place of the buffering material) with bb's in 12 gauge "home defense loads"?
bogie
Member
Ahh... The "Ayoob Defense."
I wonder how many hits one would get on Lexis with the words "hollow, point and hollowpoint."
I'm guessing not a great number will hinge on self-defense ammuntion.
I wonder how many hits one would get on Lexis with the words "hollow, point and hollowpoint."
I'm guessing not a great number will hinge on self-defense ammuntion.
ScottsGT
Member
Our CWP class instructor could not stress to us enough to NEVER carry "roll your own" due to litigation you will be facing in a civil suite after teh PD clears you. BTW, He is a Captain on out local city PD, and an NRA instructor. Our class was in REAL GOOD hands.
Sam
Member
Erich,
Which part will I get the most hassle from, the Golden Sabre bullet, the cyanide or the pigfat?
I keep your card in my wallet at all times.
Sam
Which part will I get the most hassle from, the Golden Sabre bullet, the cyanide or the pigfat?
I keep your card in my wallet at all times.
Sam
Highland Ranger
Member
Living in NJ where hollow points and concealed carry (for all intents and purposes) are illegal . . . . . I really enjoy discussions like this . . . . . .
Erich
Member
Sam, the cyanide.
Sam
Member
I'll have to change the recipe.
It was a hard load to develop, originally started out with Compound 1080 but went to the cyanide because I figured it would be more humane.
The pigfat bullet lube was a recent addition based on world events.
Might possibly leave out the pigfat and the Cyanide and use a filler of pig crap. Gives that lingering infection effect while retaining the psychological deterrent effect for a third of the worlds population.
We got any more case law on pigcrap than we do on handloads?
I have searched and searched and searched and searched and cannot find any precedents on the handloads or the pig crap.
Sam
It was a hard load to develop, originally started out with Compound 1080 but went to the cyanide because I figured it would be more humane.
The pigfat bullet lube was a recent addition based on world events.
Might possibly leave out the pigfat and the Cyanide and use a filler of pig crap. Gives that lingering infection effect while retaining the psychological deterrent effect for a third of the worlds population.
We got any more case law on pigcrap than we do on handloads?
I have searched and searched and searched and searched and cannot find any precedents on the handloads or the pig crap.
Sam
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
EddieCoyle, all that I can tell from what your lawyer told you is that your lawyer would like to settle your estate. Your wife doesn't spend a lot of time over at his office, does she?
Basically, your lawyer has told you that the most important criterion in a gun fight is the legal case afterwards. That is garbage. As a lawyer, he should know that. He won't have a client if you don't survive the fight, not unless he has arranged with your wife to settle your estate.
I simply can't imagine a person honestly telling you to use the cheapest non hollowpoint ammo you can find for self defense and not to use reloads. This actually sounds like he is trying more to get you to fail surviving the fight than he is worried about your financial matters later.
My advice, as a non-lawyer, it that you use the baddest, most kickass ammo you can control very well and that is reliable out of your gun for self defense. All that legal stuff means nothing if you shoot el cheapo ammo that doesn't always ignite or doesn't do the necessary damage to stop your attacker. Heck, just to be safe, maybe you should carry less lethal rubber ball or bean bag rounds to prove that your intent was never to kill?
Seriously, use the ammo that works best for you and that you think will do the best job of stopping your attacker. If you have legal problems later, find another lawyer that knows what he is talking about and who cares about keeping you as a living client, not a dead one.
Hey, but if you don't take my advice, then please find you lawyer and ask him to provide you with the documented cases that he claims to know and share those with us. None of the other lawyers on the board have seen them either.
Eddie, and just like your lawyer doesn't have any real proof, there is no proof that carrying what the cops carry will limit your liability either. This is the same sort of myth, but from the other end of the continuum. Nobody has ever shown that carrying what the police carry will limit your liability. The great Ayoob himself he says not to use reloads or handloads and who suggests you carry what the cops carry has NEVER documented a case where handloads were a problem, but he has documented at least two cases where the cops were sued for their choice of factory ammo. Of course, the cops didn't lose the suits as the concept is pretty stupid. And yes, they were using evil hollowpoint ammo.
Basically, your lawyer has told you that the most important criterion in a gun fight is the legal case afterwards. That is garbage. As a lawyer, he should know that. He won't have a client if you don't survive the fight, not unless he has arranged with your wife to settle your estate.
I simply can't imagine a person honestly telling you to use the cheapest non hollowpoint ammo you can find for self defense and not to use reloads. This actually sounds like he is trying more to get you to fail surviving the fight than he is worried about your financial matters later.
My advice, as a non-lawyer, it that you use the baddest, most kickass ammo you can control very well and that is reliable out of your gun for self defense. All that legal stuff means nothing if you shoot el cheapo ammo that doesn't always ignite or doesn't do the necessary damage to stop your attacker. Heck, just to be safe, maybe you should carry less lethal rubber ball or bean bag rounds to prove that your intent was never to kill?
Seriously, use the ammo that works best for you and that you think will do the best job of stopping your attacker. If you have legal problems later, find another lawyer that knows what he is talking about and who cares about keeping you as a living client, not a dead one.
Hey, but if you don't take my advice, then please find you lawyer and ask him to provide you with the documented cases that he claims to know and share those with us. None of the other lawyers on the board have seen them either.
Eddie, and just like your lawyer doesn't have any real proof, there is no proof that carrying what the cops carry will limit your liability either. This is the same sort of myth, but from the other end of the continuum. Nobody has ever shown that carrying what the police carry will limit your liability. The great Ayoob himself he says not to use reloads or handloads and who suggests you carry what the cops carry has NEVER documented a case where handloads were a problem, but he has documented at least two cases where the cops were sued for their choice of factory ammo. Of course, the cops didn't lose the suits as the concept is pretty stupid. And yes, they were using evil hollowpoint ammo.
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