Advice needed on combat shooting skills

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Dr. Loomis

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I just received some training from my boss for this armed security job I've been at for about six months and he's told us to train like this on our own time. Here's the problem I need all of your opinions on: my boss is having us completely disreguard just about everything we've been taught with our handgun skills. Now, he's a retired command sargeant major and says he was a cop and is a certified firearms instructor. So he tries to build up his credentials while he points his unloaded gun at us while talking. It's stupid! I'm ex-army infantry and you never do that. He wants us to never, never aim in a shooting. Only point the gun and shoot. I understand the idea at extreme close quarters (3 feet and less) and he doesn't want us to double-grip the pistol. Ever. Does any of this sound legit to you guys? I just can't see Navy Seals, SWAT, and other experts who shoot to survive, neglecting the value of aiming and properly griping the weapon. I've been wrong about things in the past so please, guys, tell me if I'm wrong about this. I'm very grateful for any of your wisdom.
 
Dr. Loomis....are you an armored car guard? I am one. Assuming you work for Loomis? The use of force policies vary from one armored company to another, but I will tell you, regardless of location or company, not aiming a gun when you fire it to defend yourself from robbery is flat out DUMB. He may be referring to point shooting which IS a type of aiming so do clarify with him. Coming out of an A.C. Moore and getting into a lethal situation, firing your gun, missing cause you didn't aim, and killing someone across the street is the potential outcome of that "training." Just humor him to keep your job. Do be aware that if you an armored car guard, you'd be using a firearm in a very crowded place like a mall, inside a store, on a busy street, etc.

Also, the reason for the one hand thing does make sense at close range. I am assuming you have been taught to carry your tote bag of cash, or handcart, in the offhand with gun hand free at all times. You SHOULD know how to draw and point with a bag in your hand at a close target since that is the most likely scenario.

But it also is pointless to an extent. As far as know, most companies, like mine, simply have a no resistance policy, and if your life is not in danger, or the thief is not armed, you are to simply surrender the cash and be on your way. It's not yours, it's insured in full by the company, so when you are robbed technically no one loses anything. My company would fire someone who resisted an unarmed robber. Now if your life is in danger that's another story.
 
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Actually, I'm not an armored car courier. That was a logical deduction though. I appreciate your opinion. I just hear a few other gun enthusiats talk about point shooting being better than aiming. The logic my boss has is that even if you don't hit vitals he "won't go home" but to me that's not the same as stopping them from killing you at that moment. There was a great quote from Wyatt Earp, I don't remember it exactly but it says something like "Speed is good, but accuracy is better." I'd love to find that quote and give it to my boss.
 
I wouldn't bother trying to prove your boss wrong. Sounds like he's gone 30+ years feeling that way, not very likely that after all this time one guy who works for him would just change his mind. Just go there and do what you gotta do to get that check on Friday. Learn about shooting tactics from a better source, maybe take a good class.
 
I have no desire to prove my boss wrong. I'm just wondering if it's a bad idea to train in point shooting on my own time. There are quite a few advocates of it and I was wondering what you guys think.
 
Point shooting is a good tool to have in your box. So, yes, it is certainly worthwhile to practice it until you develop proficiency. However, that should not be to the exclusion of the Weaver stance, sight picture, school.
 
While I think there is a lot of merit in training "Point Shooting", it should not be at the expense of all else; as has been said above, its another tool to have, but everything ultimately depends on the actual situation. The one handed thing I think is barking mad....sure, train for it a bit for a complete crisis, but in a real situation, where you could have gotten two hands on the weapon, you don't want to be drilled into automatically going one handed.....terrible.

For a pretty modern perspective on the whole sight shooting/point shooting conundrum, there is a guy out there called Rob Pincus, who, in my opinion makes a lot of sense with his "Combat Focus Shooting" methodology. He's very focused on the real world; I'd recommend his courses and vids; makes a lot of sense. Just google him to find out a bit more - I'm not affiliated in any way, but having done 12 years worth of tactical training/operations in the military myself, plus a lot of related civilian courses, I personally think his system is pretty much on the money.
 
So he tries to build up his credentials while he points his unloaded gun at us while talking.
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There was a great quote from Wyatt Earp, I don't remember it exactly but it says something like "Speed is good, but accuracy is better."
Click to expand...

Wow nobody cares that a guy is pointing a gun at students during a class??
How many police/trainers ND's have been brought out in these forums.??

As for the quote my favorite goes something like this "I might not be the best shot but when it comes time to shoot I won't hesitate and thats what makes the difference" of course that was paraphrasing and I don't even remember the character but it helps demonstrate the importance of mindset.
 
Does any of this sound legit to you guys?
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No.

Sounds like the gentleman in question is not well versed in conveying ideas and concepts regarding the use of a firearm for defensive purposes.

"Never, never aim in a shooting?" :barf:


I'm sure his idea of "not aiming" uses some type of visual reference appropriate for the target size and range, which is simply a different type of "aiming".
 
I think he knows what he wants to say, but can't figure out how to say it.

It sounds like he wants you all to practice point shooting with one handed strong and weak side firing. Which would make sense since firefights often occur in less than ideal circumstances.

I'm not even security and I try to train for strong and weak single-hand shooting. I've tried point shooting, but I need to develop better muscle memory before I give that another whack.
 
I agree that he's not articulating point shooting well, but it sounds like that's exactly what he wants you to work on.

Look up point shooting here and on the sites that specialize in one of it's various forms. You'll find competent trainers who include it as part of their shooting curriculum for the "no space, no time" encounters.
 
As Clint Smith wrote in the January/February 2008 American Handgunner:

"It's always argued that in a fight shooters will not look at their sights. I strongly agree -- if no one has ever taught them otherwise. To say that people don't, or won't, look at their sights is wrong. People have, they will in the future, and they'll hit the...target too. The correct alignment of the sights is a learnable skill. Is a textbook perfect sight picture available in every fight? Of course not....In fairness, the sights are only part of the issue -- the jerked on trigger doesn't improve anything."

With the proper training and practice, it's amazing how fast one can acquire a flash sight picture and hit accurately. Learning those techniques and developing proficiency in the use of those techniques also gives you the flexibility to deal with targets at pretty much any distance. Yes, most gun fights are close range affairs. But what do you do if you've focused all your training on engaging targets 5 to 7 yard away; and the one time you really need to use your gun, it's the one in a hundred case in which you must engage an armed threat 10 to 15 yards away and partially behind cover?

The idea behind the flash sight picture is to focus on the front sight quickly and align the sights only as precisely as warranted under the circumstances. At distances on the order of 5 to 7 yards, when the target is the center of mass, a rough alignment will be sufficient to assure good hits (as long as you have good trigger control). As distances increase or the target shrinks, the alignment needs to be more precise. But with training and practice you can develop a good sense of how good is good enough and be able to make instantaneous judgments.

Even when one has been taught to look at the sights, how much has he actually practiced quickly seeing the adequate sight picture and acting reflexively, without conscious thought, on the rough sight picture? As another trainer, Bennie Cooley, once told me, "It's not that I shoot quicker than you do. It's that I see quicker."

I often wonder if the reason there are so many misses in fights has less to do with the particular technique that shooter has been taught, but the fact that he hasn't trained sufficiently for the technique to become truly reflexive.

And whether you use the sights or point shooting techniques to direct the muzzle of the gun in line with the particular part of the target you want to hit, if you don't have trigger control, your muzzle will not be in line with the part of the target you want to hit when the bullet leaves the barrel of your gun -- and you will miss. But if you have controlled the trigger properly, you will hit. There's no target too close or too big to miss.
 
Not having those skills probably saved some people in the famous 27 shots and nobody hit barfight video.
 
I'm a big fan of using the sights whenever possible. Pointshooting is best reserved for shooting from positions of retention
 
So he tries to build up his credentials while he points his unloaded gun at us while talking.
Click to expand...
I'd find a new job. Pointing a gun at you, even if he (and you) think it is unloaded is a major safety violation. Do that long enough and someone is likely to get shot.
 
Sig Sauer in Exeter NH conducts a very good hand gun school. they have several from basic to advanced combat shooting. I have been and found it well worth the money and time.
 
i suggest that you give the ole head nod, yeah ok, when he talks. and i suggest that you get some real good professional training. i can recommend several good courses/ schools. Tactical Response www.tacticalresponse.com (if you want to train with them let me know and i will get you a discounted price. ICE the combat focused shooting program with Rob Pincus, XE (used to be blackwater) now they are the us training center. and TDI Ohio. these are places that i have trained on the handgun and i can honestly recommend any and all of them.

The combat focused shooting system is an intuitive program and there are times that you will and and won't use your sights, but it is entirely left up to your skill set and your application of skill to determine when you will not use your sights to achieve good balance of speed and precision. but Rob nor any of his staff will ever tell you when you have too use or not use your sights. it is a great program. i went there a semi fast shooter, that was very accurate and had all the fundamentals in order, i left there getting accurate hits and shooting faster than i ever thought i could have. the CFS program pushed me and made me better in 2 days than i have ever gotten from a course. i will train with Rob again, and many more times.

US Training center has a great facility and a great program it is the Disney land of the training world. they have several programs that would/ will fit your needs. look into tactical pistol 1. i will go back, and i can't wait till i do.

Tactical Response is a great school with great instructors, and a great curriculum. i went there again with good accuracy and pretty good speed, but away i came a better defensive handgun shooter, they can teach you to shoot, but more than anything they teach you to fight. In the context of a ccw Fighting Pistol is one of the best courses that you could take. there is lots of range time, and a very very valuable amount of classroom time, and they hit many many things that you would have never thought of before. they go over legal aspects, mindset etc. the lectures in the classroom are worth more than the cost of admission. i will train again at tactical response.

TDI Ohio has a very good program, that is defense oriented. They have handgun levels 1-6. i have taken 1-3 and they are the foundation and build you on a solid set of fundamentals. the courses build on one another, by the time you take the 6 levels if you so wanted, in no way do you need to to get a grasp on defensive shooting, however if you do you will be a great all around defensive shooter. they will expose you to things that are more than a typical school. shoot house, jungle lane, shooting from your vehicle, and lots of low light in the later courses. i will take handgun levels 4,5,6 one day.

personally my training will never stop, and i plan to train with all the above again, as well as go to other places. since i have seen the programs of the different schools above i have to say that i got the most out of the combat focused shooting course. in the context of me as a ccw, i believe that for me personally there is no better handgun course out there for learning to get hits faster than ever. this course had the greatest effect on me and my shooting. however Tactical Response's fighting pistol was great for the legal aspect brief.

If you don't know how or you would better like to know how to fight with a handgun or any weapon for that matter go to Tactical Response, if you have the mindset and tactics down and you want to push yourself go to ICE and see Rob Pincus.
 
I keep seeing the reaffirmation of BAD advice.....

...several suggestions to "just nod your head, and keep your job", or "humor him", or "Don't disagree, he is your boss".

An unsafe act is an UNSAFE ACT! Why is something dangerous, but NOT if your boss does it?

He needs to have his illusions firmly and confidently removed before "Whoops" he kills someone. Bosses are not immune to ND's. The fact that he is sweeping anyone with his muzzle, loaded or not, is a pure and simple indication of this man's firearm knowlege.

1) Treat every gun as if it were loaded.

3) Never point a gun at anything you're unwilling to destroy.

The fact that he completely ignores two of the four basic rules that ANY FIVE YEAR OLD knows, is a certain indicator of this man's qualifications to be teaching anyone anything about firearms.

FACT: Point shooting is a developed skill. It is useful in areas where the target is in close proximity. This is a LEARNED skill. It is developed over time. Your boss is telling you to develop this skill at the exclusion of skills that are beneficial to its development.

I'm sure he would also teach newborns to RUN. If all you are going to do is run, who needs to develop "crawling" or even "walking"? Just go straight to run. Why bother with all that other crap?`

Where am I coming from? I'm no super duper instructor. I am not a teacher of any kind. I have been through numerous advanced, tactical, and low light classes taught at several publicly available training courses. All I can do is speak from my personal experience.

From my personal experience, I have noticed that when I have developed a very quick and accurate "presentation" with "aimed" firing, it has made my "point shooting" much more accurate.

If you would like, this can be proven to yourself which would be both fun and educational:

Go practice using nothing but the "point shooting" your boss suggests. Pay very close attention, or keep track of your accuracy.

Next, take about 500 rounds and spend the entire day practicing AIMED FIRE rapidly from the holster. See how fast you can present, obtain a good sight picture, and fire accurately.

You will develop what is called "muscle memory". You will definately get a feel for where the muzzle "needs to be".

Now, go back to point shooting, and see how your accuracy compares to that from before.

Any guesses which will be better?

But, unlike your boss, (who sweeps people) I am not going to tell you that my way is the only way. You might very well be a "natural" or very good point shooter. I am just offering advice from my perspective. You're welcome to take it or leave it. After all, they say free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. :)
 
I keep seeing the reaffirmation of BAD advice.....

...several suggestions to "just nod your head, and keep your job", or "humor him", or "Don't disagree, he is your boss".

An unsafe act is an UNSAFE ACT! Why is something dangerous, but NOT if your boss does it?
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I agree completely. I'm not going to stick around if someone is pointing guns at people, particularly if they are pointing at ME! If someone points a gun at me, I let them know that is completely unacceptable, right then and there. Either they stop doing that or I'm gone.
 
The one quote you mentioned was not Wyat Earp it was Bill Jordan in his book No second place winner and the correct quote is "speeds fine but accuracy is final"
 
...several suggestions to "just nod your head, and keep your job", or "humor him", or "Don't disagree, he is your boss".

An unsafe act is an UNSAFE ACT! Why is something dangerous, but NOT if your boss does it?
Click to expand...
if you read my post then you would see that i said the above when he talks, i said nothing about it if he points a gun at you. i am not gonna get into an argument about guns, pointing them at each other, etc that argument can go on and on. it is so easy for us to tell him to stop working there to quit the job, but things aren't always that easy for someone to do. In the Army i have recieved some bs as far as training especially on room clearing, and individual shooting skills, i can't quit my job, i drive on. i take courses, and i teach and train my soliders to a higher standard. through self improvment my squad is always the fastest, most accurate, and most aggresive squad in the company when it comes to clearing rooms in the shoot house. My squad has a very high qual average, even though I, you and many many people on here know that that is a crappy way to mesure the success of ones shooting skills.

my bosses have been dumb over the years and some still are, but now i can have the positive impact that i need to have on the ones that are the real trigger pullers.
 
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