Advice needed re: something found in the attic!

[Amadeus]

I need some guidance with the care and feeding of an old time boomstick.

A family friend recently re-discovered at the back of his attic his great grandfather’s Colt’s PFTA 1878 Hammer Shotgun. The gun has been in storage for decades and has probably not been fired in as many years. An Internet based serial number search places the year of manufacture as 1888.

We think but cannot confirm that it is chambered in 10 bore. The gun has no readily apparent gauge designation markings. The questions I hope someone can answer are as follows.

How can we find out what the proper gauge is for this gun?

Is ammo still available?

Provided that it is in proper working condition is it wise to run ammo through it?

How should I clean it without harming its value or its finish?

Will Hoppes 9 be safe or is that too harsh a solvent for antiques?

Thanks.

 

[Coltdriver]

I would suggest you take the gun to a gun smith. Be prepared to pay the man and have him inspect it and tell you if it is safe to fire. He can answer all of your other questions too.

You may be able to fire it, however, you should definintely get the smiths opinion first and I suspect that he will recommend that if you do fire it that you do so with down loaded ammo. That may mean getting light "cowboy action" loads or loading your own.

Remember the only thing that shotgun was designed for was black powder. By comparison to modern propellants black powder is relatively weak. If you are advised to shoot only down loaded black powder, just imagine what a regular shotgun shell would do if loaded with modern propellants! Given the metallurgy and the age of the gun even a full load of black powder could blow it up. A regular 10 guage shell with modern powder would grenade the gun and quite possibly kill the shooter or bystanders or both!

Be safe and have fun and post a picture if you can.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Wow. Nice find.

According to my Blue Book (2003), the value ranges up to $3750.00 (100% condition). I can't answer all your questions but;

Provided that it is in proper working condition is it wise to run ammo through it?

No. The barrels are damascus.

How should I clean it without harming its value or its finish?

Provided it isn't rusty, I wouldn't do too much except maybe a light coat of oil to make sure it doesn't rust.

I don't know how to properly measure the chambers for the gauge, but I would drop a 12 ga shell into it and see if it fits. If it drops into the bore, it's a 10 bore.

Congratulations to your friend.

 

[Oldnamvet]

With a value like that - both monetarily and historically - I'd build a nice glass display case for it and put it on the wall. Damascus barrels didn't age well and even a very light load could blow the barrel and ruin it.

 

[kudu]

Nice find, most 10ga of that period were 2.5" shells, and they would be black powder loads as stated already.

Any firearms museums in the area? That would be a good palce to research the gun, and as for shooting it, I wouldn't want to take the chance.


Wish I could find something like that in an attic.

 

[pauli]

i do believe we need to see some pictures.

 

[Kamicosmos]

I also have several old shotguns from my great and greatgreat grandfathers. One is a very Big double barreled hammered gun. It was actually a county sherriff's weapon back in the 1870's.

I keep meaning to have them checked out, but have no interest in actually shooting them. But I do need to get them cleaned up and perhaps a display case built for them.

If yours is an actual colt, very nice! My shotguns have absolutely no markings on them what so ever...

 

[Amadeus]

I will work on getting some pictures. The gun and the friend are on an opposite coast. But I will do what I can to accomodate my Highroad family.

 

[Tom Held]

Shooting Damascus Barrels

For what it's worth, probably not much, I think the strength of old damascus barreled shotguns is greatly underrated. I have a a Parker and old English double, both made at the turn of the century and I shoot modern loads in both with no problems.

I have a friend who still shoots a Purdey hammer double made in 1890 at live pigeon shoots. He's shooting 3 1/4 dram 1 1/4 oz heavy pigeon loads, basically a magnum load of 8's and 7 1/2s and he almost always finishes in the top 3.

I would not hesitate to shoot modern ammo in a Parker, L.C. Smith, Ithaca, etc. if the gun were in good shape.

 

[New_geezer]

Just an FYI - I always wondered about Damascus barrels and just assumed modern powders were ill advised simply because they were more powerful. The answer it seems is a little more complex. Modern powders behave or burn quite differently from black powder and those characteristics are directly at odds with the way Damascus barrels were designed.

From http://www.griffinhowe.com/abbreviations.cfm

Damascus Bbls - Barrel tubes built up by twisting alternate strips of iron and steel around a fixed rod (mandrel) and welding them together in varying combinations according to the intended quality and the skill of the maker. The rod was withdrawn, the interior reamed and the exterior filed until the finished tube was achieved. Damascus barrels may be recognized by any of a variety of twist or spiral patterns visible in the surface of the steel. Before the 20th century, barrels were typically built in this manner because gunmakers did not have the technology to drill a deep hole the full length of a bar of steel without coming out the side.

Damascus barrels were usually intended for use with black powder---the standard of the day. The contour of the barrel wall thickness, intended for the fast explosion of black powder, was quite thick at the breech and tapered thinner towards the muzzle. It is not advisable to shoot modern smokeless powder in a damascus barrel. Apart from giving due deference to the age of such barrels and to the method of their construction, smokeless powder burns more slowly, lowering the pressure at the breech end, but considerably raising it further down the barrel to a level such barrels were rarely designed to handle

 

[pauli]

that strikes me as a rather dangerous generalization about powder.

 

[New_geezer]

I don't reload or claim any great knowledge of powder. I thought the definition gave an insight I hadn't read before as to why modern powders were a danger to Damascus barrels.

Is the definition inherently incorrect?

I've read some heated arguments about the advisability of shooting older guns, especially with Damascus barrels. With the pro argument generally saying - it is safe to shoot old guns if you use loads that are consistent with the loads the gun was designed for at the time of manufacture. I know powder burns but In my ignorance I just thought adapting modern powder for older guns was a matter of compensating for the improved "explosiveness" per given weight. I was surprized to learn the burn characteristics of different powders created different pressures in the barrel that could have an adverse affect.

I admit I'm a relatively casual shooter, so I guess this may be a good argument why casual shooters should be extra cautious and take the time to do some research before even thinking about firing an older gun, especially a gun like the one described in this thread.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Here's how it was explained to me many years ago. I don't have a source, because I don't even remember if I read it or if it was explained by a gunsmith.

Because of the nature of the manufacture of damascus, there are many tiny "voids" in the steel. Remember, damascus is basically hammered flat, folded over, and welded together, over and over.
Because of the use of black powder and the age of these guns, corrosion will have taken place in those voids over the years, likely as not.
That corrosion is not readily apparent to the naked eye and can weaken the steel.

You may have not had any trouble with shooting a damascus barreled shotgun, but I don't think I would chance it.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I'm sure some Damascus and twist barrels can be shot repeatedly with proper ammo. The trouble is, we do not know which ones.

The Vintagers lost one long time member a year or two ago who shot a fine double. He shot just one time too many.

Much as I like the idea of using old family guns, sanity bids forebearance at times....

 

[mete]

There is good damascus , bad damascus, and even fake damascus and some proofed for nitro powders, But it's an OLD gun ,be gentile ! You have to find exactly what it was designed for, have it checked by a good gunsmith before you fire it.

 

[Gordon]

If the breeching was tight, and the barrells not obviously defective; you could use sub caliber inserts. IF the gun is 10ga and not 12ga which inexpensive(relatively) inserts are off the shelf available, you can still have them made for a few hundred dollars in 20 ga. ! Personally if the gun was 70% or better I'd clean it up an give ir a proud safe position or sell for a few thou.

 

[Preacherman]

But it's an OLD gun ,be gentile !

So, Mete, if you don't want to be gentile, do you have to circumcise the barrels?