Advice on a long range gun.....

[CommanderPoopyduX]

I am looking to get setup with a long range rifle (just like the title said). That being said, I currently Deer hunt with a Remington 700 in 30-06. That will probably continue to be my dragging through the woods, making quick shots from standing type rifle.

What I am looking for is not only a brand of rifle, but also a caliber. I want something that will have enough power to penetrate something as large as an elk or a bear at a minimum of 600 meters. So, that should help narrow the field, as I know a 223 will shoot that far, but I don't know that it would do much to a large bear or bull elk. I am not entirely against a .50, but they seem extremely expensive and a bit overkill for hunting things in North America. Plus I would like the gun to hold more than one shot (which really drives up the price of a .50 it seems).

Any advice is appreciated, including gun suggestions and caliber suggestions. I realize the sky is the limit with prices on this sort of thing, but the cheaper I could go, the sooner I can make it happen.....I like the idea of the Steyr Scouts with the built in bipod in the stock, but I don't know anything about them.

My Remington 700 is a great gun, but it is setup to be carried through thick woods and make quick shots. I don't want to mess that up by adding a bigger scope, bipod, etc....

Thanks in advance for the input!

 

[TX1911fan]

300 Weatherby Mag does very well ballistically. Also, some of the Remington Ultra Mags are impressive. If you look at Remington's website, they have a ballistics page that will let you see trajectory, velocity and energy for multiple different rounds. Once you've chosen your round, you can start looking for a rifle chambered in that round.

 

[mpmarty]

If weight and recoil isn't of great concern you might take a look at the 8mm magnum from Remington. If it weren't for the Elk and Great Bears I'd pick something in 7mm Rem Mag and handloads with the 162gr Hornady boat tail spitzer with a BC of over 700 it can be launched at over 3000 fps in a good bolt gun with 24" or longer barrel for pure long range performance and the 160 grain Nosler partition at the same velocity for large game.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

Now I am confused....

I looked at Remington's website (very nice) and looked up Grizzly bear. They do NOT recommend a 7mm, but do recommend the 8mm.....BUT when comparing them, the 7mm is quite a bit faster at all ranges, and past 300 yards has more energy than the 8mm, and drops less......so it sounds like 7mm Mag may be a better choice than the 8mm......plus I really hadn't heard of the 8mm yet....I would assume, with muzzle breaks and stocks, a lot of recoil can be controlled (as the one .50 I shot really didn't recoil much).....

Basically, I am confused and will look through Remington's info more, but it seems the 7mm Mag may have some of the best performance so far (at a distant, again my MINIMUM range is 600 meters). I know it will make a smaller hole than 8mm, but I would think it would penetrate farther if it is going faster and has more energy, so as long as it hits where you want.....

any more advice, and considering both a 7mm Mag and a 8mm, any gun recommendations?

Edit: The more I look at info, it seems the less likely I am going to find something to shoot quite that far......I didn't feel like 600 meters was too much to ask, but the drop in speed, energy, and trajectory makes it look a little hard to match.....

 

[Zak Smith]

Practice, skill, and experience are critical to making long-range hits.
The "boiler room" shot is about a 8-14" diameter circle, depending on the game animal. Making a shot on game means having the ability to make a first-round hit at arbitrary distance 90+% of the time, and the judgment to know when you're beyond your limits.

Based on that reasoning, I strongly recommend getting a rifle and caliber that you can get enough practice with. Note that this is at cross-purposes to providing great terminal energy/effects because those high-powered cartridges also have more recoil and are more expensive to shoot (in terms of ammunition and replacement barrel cost).

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

I agree with the practice part of it Zak, and have hunted my whole life. I consider myself a good shot and would practice with the rifle, at the described distance......If I can find something that can shoot that far and keep the energy to take down a large animal....

That being said, what is the longest distance one can expect to be able to take down a brown bear/what caliber? (assuming you hit where you want)

 

[GunTech]

Without commenting about the need for practice, 338 Lapua should get you there with plenty of energy.

Personally, I'd take a high BC bullet out of an accurate rifle over a supermagnum. If you can hit the ten inch gong at 1000, you only need adequate energy.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

GunTech - would a 7mm Mag be sufficient for what you are talking about?

 

[Zak Smith]

A recent LR student of mine indicated he had no qualms with the power of the 7mm Magnums for long-range shots on Antelope (he had taken several). I can't remember if he mentioned Elk or not.

 

[SpeedAKL]

600+ meter range...for a bear or elk? You're gonna want some pretty serious firepower. Try .338 Win Mag, .338 Remington Ultra Mag, .300 or .340 Weatherby Mag, .338 Lapua Magnum (great for very long-distance shots, not sure about the bear-killing). Keep in mind that the recoil of these rounds may very well affect your ability to place accurate shots, particularly if your life lacks a muzzle brake (as most rifles for hunting purposes do). If you want to control recoil a bit more, try .300 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag.

 

[SpeedAKL]

As for brands, shop Weatherby, CZ, Tikka, Accuracy International (tho this is out of the question if you're going to be stalking and/or on a budget), H-S Precision, McMillan Bros, etc. I believe Remington builds magnum-caliber versions of the 700 if you're satisfied with the basic operation of your rifle.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have to question the ethics of ultra long range hunting, especially of a large predator like a bear. A shift in the breeze, a change in the light, a 20 yard error in range estimation, a micron more oil in the bore, and you have a wounded killer in the woods half a mile away with no chance to do your duty and follow up.

I suggest you take that obsolete .30-06 out and see how far you can hit that 8-14" "boiler room" the first try.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

I like my 30-06, and will continue to use it for most hunting applications. The main thing I am looking for is a setup on a rifle that will be able to shoot a great distance (mainly for target) but still have energy when it gets there (and something much bigger than 223).

I know there is nothing wrong with 30-06, I just want to have something that past 200 yards isn't sub 2000 ft/lbs and sub 2000 ft/sec past 320 yards.

I have never actually shot anything further than 200 yards, and probably never would. I prefer being close to the game when hunting....but I want a powerful rifle to target shoot with which the caliber doesn't begin with a 2.

Edit: Let me get real specific.....anyone have any opinion on a Steyr ProHunter in 7mmRemMag vs. a Remington 700 (specifically the SPS DM) in the same cal.....

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Get yourself a 7mm Remington Magnum and quit listening to all of the hoopla sent your way. You don't need a 338 Mag anything. 300 Winchester mag whatever. America is way oversold. We have the world's richest urine going going the commode as it is everytime we take vitamins. Gun rags to riches "their pockets and the pockets of big business"
A hefty percentage of the shooting public don't trust the traditional small arms like the 30-06, 270 Winchester, both of those cartridges are proven and vicious on big game when you reload with the right bullet weight.
Like the game of golf most use the wrong approach and start buying expensive equipment but the swing never changes.
Magnum rifles make for bad habits and bad habits pay the dickens to unlearn and unbreak. I met up with a shooter who was as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof when sighting in a 22-250 and he told me that he was going to Africa on a big game hunt. This guy wasn't a shooter by a long shot.
If you get to where you can shoot a 7mm Remington Magnum and are comfortable in shooting with it than go for the distance with that rifle. The 7mm Remington Mag really catches up the distance without alot of punishment to your shoulder.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

Thanks for the Info U.S.SFC....that is what I was leaning on going with. Now I just have to decide on what rifle to build off of, and it looks like for the price, my experience, and their reputation, the Remington 700 may win out.

I just need to decide if I want removable mags or not.....

 

[Jim Watson]

I'm not saying you shouldn't have a more powerful rifle to hunt bigger game with... although Jack O'Connor thought a .30-06 was the optimum grizzly rifle, just that it would be an easy way for you to check out the requirements of long range shooting.

If you get something like a .338 for elk and bear, you might not find a day at the range with it much fun. I know I wouldn't. You probably need two (more) rifles to get all your shooting done.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

From what I understand Remmy makes or has made several outstanding 700 models. AdL BdL among others. I am not too informed and I plan to buy one myself. If ever there is one magnum to get it is the 7mm remington Mag. Came out in '62 and very versatile if you reload. Just like the 30-06 very versatile round to reload. I love to read these posts when people say you can't take bear that's bull. Know what you are doing first of all. No round on earth can ever make up for the lack of knowledge or experience. Yes 338 magnums are awesome and yes they can reach out there but the vast majority of any game animal taken by these brute magnums are nowhere near close to their potential. Marketing did it. People listened to it and as a result you could imagine legions of 30-06s, 270s and even 30-30s cast aside for the magnums. Then come the WSMs and the Ultras and Whatever else. Some of the Magnums cast aside for those. Short actions. I seen a gawd awful round two months ago that a guy showed me, it looked like a super beefed up 223 round almost like a short sausage with a teeny tip for the bullet. He said to me that the round virtually exploded in the air before it hit the target. ''He was reloading that cartridge''. Nonetheless if you hit a fourlegged critter with that thing its an explosion.
Common sense takes precedence, look at the charts and look at the ballistics. Its very tough to overcome the wind when it comes down to distance. This is why the 6.5 swede does so well. 300 Win Mag does well but from what I understand it kicks harder than the 7MM Remington Mag compared for the performance given by the 7MM Remington Mag.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

I just got back from looking at Remms at my local sporting goods store. The SPS seems to be a nice gun, though I like the feel of the Varmint model better...but it doesn't come in anything bigger than 308.

So, last question I have, how much more does a 7mm Mag kick compared to a 30-06?

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

While you're on the topic of Remingtons, you mind if I ask, does the SPS tactical come with iron sights?
I figure it'd make a nice hunting rifle for these parts, but I can't find anyone who can answer that for me.

 

[CommanderPoopyduX]

Hobo - I could be wrong, but I say NO...they are ready for rings, but no irons.

 

[v8stang289]

Hobo- The SPS Tactical that the local shop has does not have iron sights.

 

[Zak Smith]

In a 10 lb rifle,

.30-06 shooting 175gr @ 2800 fps = 7.6 ft*lbs free recoil energy (FRE)
7RM shooting 168gr @ 3000 fps = 8.0 ft*lbs FRE

So they're almost the same in terms of recoil, but the 7RM has a lot better downrange trajectory.

In the 7mm's, don't forget .280 Remington, aka 7mm-06.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

Damn, I really liked that rifle, thanks anyway.

 

[christcorp]

I agree that for "NORMAL" long range hunting and shooting, the 7mm rem mag is about the best there is. Overall, probably the most universal and versatile caliber there is.

However, in your opening post, you said something that struck a nerve, You mentioned taking out a bear or elk at a "MINIMUM" of 600 meters. First of all, if you are truly that good at 600 meters and can place such a shot for a "CLEAN" kill, then you are beyond my suggestions. I live in a place were 300-400 yd shots are taken, and I consider myself a damn good shot, but I don't claim "600 meter MINIMUM".

However, if that was the shot to take, then I would want to use either the 30-378 Weatherby or the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner. There is no doubt that for that kind of distance, these two are one of the few that can maintain the speed and trajectory. Energy would need to be determined for the purpose. If you were going after sheep and such, the 7mm STW is the one. If you really want that elk or moose, the the 30-378.

I have shot both and all I can say if; "Damn". Especially the 30-378. Anyway, I don't do 600 meter shots as a minimum. But if I did, there is no doubt in my mind that these 2 wildcats would be the ones I'd be using. But for us normal people, UP TO 600 METERS, the 7mm rem mag is by far my most favorite and most versatile. Later.... Mike.....

 

[Zak Smith]

Comparison of some of the cartridges discussed here :

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     200     400     600     800    1000 | YARDS
338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2750 >    0.00    1.56    6.47   15.16   28.13   45.96 | wind (inches)
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >    0.00    1.61    6.73   15.83   29.47   48.34 | wind (inches)
7RM 168 VLD       0.643 3000 >    0.00    1.65    6.92   16.32   30.46   50.09 | wind (inches)
7RM 180 VLD       0.684 2900 >    0.00    1.63    6.80   15.98   29.75   48.78 | wind (inches)
30378 210VLD      0.630 3200 >    0.00    1.54    6.45   15.20   28.36   46.61 | wind (inches)
7STW 168          0.643 3200 >    0.00    1.51    6.30   14.85   27.67   45.43 | wind (inches)
7STW 180          0.684 3050 >    0.00    1.51    6.31   14.83   27.59   45.19 | wind (inches)

338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2750 >   -0.00    1.42    6.11   11.72   18.14   25.44 | drop (moa)
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >   -0.00    1.13    5.22   10.23   16.05   22.77 | drop (moa)
7RM 168 VLD       0.643 3000 >   -0.00    1.07    5.04    9.96   15.70   22.37 | drop (moa)
7RM 180 VLD       0.684 2900 >   -0.00    1.20    5.44   10.63   16.63   23.56 | drop (moa)
30378 210VLD      0.630 3200 >   -0.00    0.82    4.25    8.54   13.56   19.40 | drop (moa)
7STW 168          0.643 3200 >   -0.00    0.82    4.23    8.49   13.46   19.22 | drop (moa)
7STW 180          0.684 3050 >   -0.00    0.99    4.76    9.40   14.77   20.95 | drop (moa)

338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2750 >    2750    2540    2340    2149    1967    1794 | velocity (fps)
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >    2950    2702    2466    2244    2034    1836 | velocity (fps)
7RM 168 VLD       0.643 3000 >    3000    2737    2488    2254    2033    1826 | velocity (fps)
7RM 180 VLD       0.684 2900 >    2900    2657    2427    2210    2004    1811 | velocity (fps)
30378 210VLD      0.630 3200 >    3200    2921    2657    2408    2174    1953 | velocity (fps)
7STW 168          0.643 3200 >    3200    2927    2668    2423    2192    1975 | velocity (fps)
7STW 180          0.684 3050 >    3050    2800    2563    2338    2125    1925 | velocity (fps)