advice on AK 47 or ar 15

[jehicks87]

The guy at the gun store is selling you a load of BS. Whether it is because he wanted you to drop a grand on an AR (which is EASY to do) or he is just that uninformed, I don't know. IF you do go back into that store, be sure and ask him if he has ever been in combat on the muzzle end of an AK-47, or if he has ever had to bet his life on an AR working, and I mean working RIGHT NOW.

I have done the first, and seen the aftermath. I fortunately have never done the second, as I am a blackhawk crewchief and my main weapon is a 240. I have had an M4 go down on me on many occasions at the qual range, though. Thank God those targets weren't shooting back.

 

[two gun charlie]

I could leave my other rifles behind, SLR-95 and LAR-8, and just have this one. Its a Rock River Arms LAR-6 in 6.8spc. The size of a standard AR15 but with much more oomph than a 5.56. Put a quality optic on it and you will have a very effective and versatile rifle/carbine.

How well do you think it will handle dirt ? say I am out on a bush patrol for a few weeks and really have to rough it ?

 

[two gun charlie]

I have had an M4 go down on me on many occasions at the qual range, though. Thank God those targets weren't shooting back.

Thanks pal , you just saved me a couple of bucks and quite a few months worth of red tape and pain in the neck , to get exactly what I wouldn't have wanted

 

[30-30shooter]

AR:
+AR is very Ambi friendly


AK:
-not ambi friendly

im sorry but the mag and bolt release on han ar 15 is not ambi, the ak is ambi as long as you dont mind shells flying in front of your face, which the ar does to.

 

[jehicks87]

Charlie, I cannot speak for everyone who fires an AR-15 platform; obviously their are a bunch of supporters for that weapon system. But I can tell you that myself and preeeetty much everyone I serve with has said "why the hell are we issued these things when xyz is so much better?"

And... you're welcome.

 

[TrickyDick]

If you're going to "Baby" it and spend the extra buck, Go AR. If you want to beat it and save some money, go AK. AK was designed for up to 300M, but it's better @ less than 250M. AR's have distance and more accuracy, intended for 300-400M with better groupings. I love AK's, I've used the AR platform in the military and it's just not my cup of tea, its good, but i just like AK's. BE SIMPLE: TRY BOTH, SHOP AROUND AND DECIDE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

 

[two gun charlie]

Charlie, I cannot speak for everyone who fires an AR-15 platform; obviously their are a bunch of supporters for that weapon system. But I can tell you that myself and preeeetty much everyone I serve with has said "why the hell are we issued these things when xyz is so much better?"

And... you're welcome.

You say you prefer the 240 ? excuse my ignorance 240 what If you were not limited to what the US military offered , would that still be your choice ?

 

[Zip06]

Neither the AK nor the AR would be a bad choice. Get what you want but buy quality. That means an Arsenal for the AK and Colt for the AR.

 

[Bojangles7]

I have had an M4 go down on me on many occasions at the qual range, though. Thank God those targets weren't shooting back.

^This

But I can tell you that myself and preeeetty much everyone I serve with has said "why the hell are we issued these things when xyz is so much better?"

and this are pretty much my experience as well. It's a fine weapon unless you're in a situation where you can't baby it every time it gets a little dirty. In boot camp we spent countless hours cleaning our rifles and there would still be malfunctions on the range.

You say you prefer the 240 ? excuse my ignorance 240 what

M240. Fully automatic 7.62x51. Yes, it's fun to shoot.

 

[dogbaloo]

I'm not a mall ninja, I regret not having served my country in the military, nor have I seen combat...basically, I'm just a straight, honest interwebs surfing gun nut. I can tell you this:

I enjoy taking and shooting various rifle classes designed for educational purposes. While I own a nice M4'gery with a great optic, my favorite gun (s) are my AK's...that I built from kits when it was economical. They NEVER fail to feed or fire. I have had a problem with one of mine, which on occassion will slam fire a round. I know why it's doing it and I need to correct it, but the point is this; a failure means it goes bang twice.

I NEVER get a hard time at those classes, and frankly, most instructors make it a point to tell how freaking awesome the AK platform is. Instructors are all current police swat instructors in a major city, all former military...good guys...knowledgeable. One has commented that he wished he were allowed to carry his Romy AK as a patrol rifle.

Get what turns you on. I've gone ful circle. I have mine outfitted with Ultimak's and an aimpoint, with a ACE stock and thick recoil pad. Love that gun.

I plan on buying an SLR-107 before then end of the year...and all of the Yugo surplus ammo I can afford.

But thats me.

 

[jehicks87]

Ok, I don't know how to quote anything. :/

BUt, this is in response to TwoGunCHarlie:

My "main weapon" is an M240G, Light Machine Gun chambered in 7.62x51. I'm a blackhawk crewchief, so when we're in the air I man 240's. Outside of the bird, I'm toting an M9... funny thing about it is, people over there are TERRIFIED of pistols. Point an MG at them and they'll just stare at you, pull your pistol out and they will run. On a side not, I actually HAVE carried an M4 in "combat" before I was issued my m9, but never used it. Remember when Kandahar Air Field got attacked by those suicide bombers last year? Guess who was 200 yards away. Didn't get to fire a shot, either.

If I were not limited by the military or finances, I think I'd carry an ACR; heard awesome things about them and they use a short-stroke system like an SKS. If I were (and I am) limited by finances, I'd carry an AK or a Vz 58. I just can't decide between those two... we'll see which one I end up buying towards the end of the year.

 

[jehicks87]

Dogbaloo, a concerned citizen is a prepared citizen. Nothing wrong with not having been in the military.

 

[ugaarguy]

I have had an M4 go down on me on many occasions at the qual range, though. Thank God those targets weren't shooting back.

I had M16A2s go down on me at the qual range too. I can absolutely trace it to two things - 1) old worn out mags that the AF was trying to get every last cent out of by using them as range mags, and 2) lack of lubrication: the military discourages the heavy lube that the top civilian instructors have proven makes the AR platform run in even very dusty conditions. ARs don't need to be super clean, but they do need to be lubed.

 

[two gun charlie]

well it will be an Ak for me then who makes the best ak ?

 

[jehicks87]

ugaarguy, I just don't trust a weapon that needs to be lubed up more than a girl trying new things out.

TwoGunCharlie, that's a debate in and of itself. lol. Search around, but avoid IO and Century. The "best" of the stamped are converted saigas, SLR something or others, bulgarians, then romanians from what I've been able to gather. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards a Vz 58 myself, but that's a whole different weapon altogether. For the price though, I don't think you can beat an AK.

 

[regal]

I don't get the whole AR's have better accuracy argument. Take a quality Colt semi M4 and feed it X193 or M855 at 50+ cents per round and it has been proven that 3"moa at 100 yards is exceptional. You have to spend over $1 a round on lower powered .223 commercial ammo to get better accuracy out of a military (chrome lined) barrel AR than a similiar priced SLG AK. Now consider the fact that an SLG-31 AK-74 shoots 7n6 ammo at less than 15 cents per round. The nice thing about an AR is ergonomics, if you chose one over an AK I can see a 14.5" CHF pencil barrel AR being a superior weapon, but the ammo cost is extreme. If you reload, then a 16" recce AR with 70+ grain per round ammo and expensive optics makes a good choice or if you are a lottery winner and can afford the 77g spr ammo. For any AK I just really think you want a comblock built gun for the quality CHF barrel (you can't buy kit guns with real AK barrels anymore.)

It really boils down to budget, and if you are buying this for 2A end of times situation, budget for at least 10k rounds.

So choices look like this:

Lightweight 14.5 CHF pencil AR + 10k ammo ~ $6k
Arsenal Ak-74 + 10k ammo ~ $2500
Hungarian AMD-65 +10k ammo ~$2500
Recce/SPR type AR with optics and 10k ammo ~ $20k and at least anothr $5k in ammo learning how to shoot it at the long range it costs justify the purchase.

 

[psyshack]

The AR's are wonderful but I haven' popped for one of my own yet.

Instead I have these and like them a lot.

That would be my Romanian G Built from a kit as it came out of he bags. It tested out well. Now I've refinished the wood and gave it a cheap paint job. The front sight is canted to the left just a tad. Very hard to see and it still sites in well. The VZ is a little tank! And shoots out very well.

Bottom line you can't go wrong with the AR or AK. They are both battle proven platforms. The VZ is more of I like it and have to have one, also combat proven.

I have a son-n-law that served in the sand pit and was wounded. He always talks about how much he liked his 92 and AR. And how much he missed them. But when they show up here he always has ammo for the AK and want's to shoot it. So I figured he just missed shooting a assault rifle. Seeing they are newly weds, just bought there first house and now have a baby on the way and he did get a good used 92 I figured for x-mas i would buy him a milspec lower and parts kit and let him start building his AR as they came into a $ or two here and there.

I talked to my daughter about this gift and she thought it was a great idea. As long it was one like mine. That left me very confused. She informed me he liked all the bells and whistles that were always issued with the AR. But hated the rifles. Shes a good listener and pointed out I wasn't. He liked the sighting systems, The little bomb launchers. (LOL) and the other cool parts. Not the rifles themselves.

This led to me chatting with his father. He has two AR's and the boy never shoots them when they visit. So his father and I are going in half each and getting him a simple wars. If this is what he would like after serving so be it.

Get what ever you want and shoot the crud out of it.

 

[ugaarguy]

Jehicks, I guess you don't trust many guns then - http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf.

Take a quality Colt semi M4 and feed it X193 or M855 at 50+ cents per round and it has been proven that 3"moa at 100 yards is exceptional.

Where are you buying your ammo? Palmetto State Armory has XM193 for $142.25 per 500 rounds, and case quantity shipping at $12 per 1k rounds. That's $296.50 per 1k rounds, shipped; or 29.65 cents per round. 3" at 100 yards, or 3 MOA? Also who has proven this? Have you read the XM193 technical bulletin? Are you sure you didn't mean to type 1 MOA? 3" At 100 yards with XM193 or M855 is horrible.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/XM193.pdf
ACCURACY: 3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00” mean radius maximum average at 200 yards
INSTRUMENTAL VELOCITY: 3165 +/- 40 FPS (78 feet from muzzle) using a 5.56 test barrel, 20” long

 

[jehicks87]

Psyshack, awesome story. On a side not, which of the two do you prefer, the Vz or the AK?

ugaarguy, no, I don't trust many AR-15s. Again, this is from personal experience. I am very adept at cleaning an AR; I am also intimately familiar with how quickly they begin to gum up and malfunction even after a thorough cleaning. This is not just limited to the AR; I aslo know first-hand how an m240 will gunk up if not "properly" *i.e. dripping* lubed. Before and after every one of our flights we would drench the bolt of our 240's in lube, and clean them when we landed. But, being in an Army Aviation unit, we had that luxury. If I had been humping that thing everywhere, I would be singing a completely different tune. I do not think a standard foot soldier's weapon (which the AR was designed to be) should require that much care and attention. Finely-tuned hunting weapons? Sure. A kill or be killed weapon? No. Since the AR was designed as a wartime instrument, in my and many other's eyes, it fails.

The article you linked to seems to be a bit masturbatory. The author uses phrases like "pundits" and "bafoons" pretty liberally. No, not those specific words, but "flavor" words that really add very little to the article other than making the author sound educated, which I am sure he is. I personally have never heard anyone say the AR runs better dry than wet. That is nonsense. While I was downrange, however, many of the fobbits would keep their M4's dry to avoid the moondust from congealing in the chamber. This is not unsound, though it may seem at first to contradict what the article says. If the weapon is constantly being shot, proper lubrication should keep it running. A thorough cleaning, lube job, and then toting it around for a day (yes, a day) in an environment like southern Afghanistan or any other similar environ and the weapon WILL jam. This is not speculation, this is observation.

It's an ideological difference. Tools should work, every time. Machines require routine "preventative" maintenance. Do you consider your firearm more of a hammer or race car? When I need to build a house, I will not be pounding nails in with a Ferrari.

 

[two gun charlie]

you tell em hickey , we don't need jams while someone is trying to kill us ! , btw it turns out in my little backwater country the 'powers that be' don't like the two letters A & K especially right next to each other in that order . So I will be looking further.
p.s and all that lubing means an extra truck load of lube that needs to be shipped , rather ship a better rifle instead

 

[jehicks87]

TwoGun, if that's the case I'd look into the Vz.

Ugaar, I re-read the entire thread, and I just wanted to tell you that I totally agree with your first post. I do not want this to turn into a you vs me debate; I think everyone's best weapon is the one they are most comfortable with. I DO think, though, that many people gloss over "comfortability" by sub-ing in "ergonomics." The AR is a much more refined and ergonomic rifle than the AK. It doesn't give me peace of mind, though.

If you like your AR, great! I really mean that.

I'll tell you a story: I had a 1994 F-150. Base model. 3.9L inline six. Ugly truck. But she never broke down; not one damn time. I traded her in for a 2005 F250 Lariat, crew cab, LWB, FX4... really sweet ride. She has broken down twice this year. Do I like her better than ole' ugly? No. She sure is pretty, though, so most other people do.

Jake

 

[Sky]

Ok, I don't know how to quote anything. :/

Chief, the last little Icon from left to right on your reply box is a square; click on it and you will have

show up in the message screen. Go find what you want to quote then copy; insert between the

insert here!!

and walla! You now know how to quote.

 

[psyshack]

Psyshack, awesome story. On a side not, which of the two do you prefer, the Vz or the AK?

I really like the VZ. But prefer the AK.

If I was going out today to buy a new AR it would be the S&W Sport. It does not have a dust cover or a forward assist. Much like the original M-16. But otherwise seems to be a good basic rifle with a good barrel and other parts that count.

Another rifle I've shot and know folks that own them is the Kel-Tec SU16C. And they love the light weight plastic shooters. And spend more woods and range time with them than there AR's or AK's.

 

[Justin]

I have very little experience with military-issued M16s. Reports from those who use them vary from satisfactory to downright garbage. I suspect much of this has to do with how well the armorer does his job, and if the supply chain for parts and accessories (especially magazines) is functioning properly.

As a civilian looking to buy a rifle, there are a mind-boggling array of offerings from a tremendous variety of companies ranging in quality from absolute garbage like Blackthorne to near perfection like JP, LaRue, and Noveske.

In general, if you keep the firearm reasonably lubricated and use high quality magazines, an AR will be extremely reliable even under very adverse conditions.

The bulk of my experience with AR-pattern guns has been in the competitive shooting world. As such, if ARs were as unreliable as so many people claim, I can guarantee you that the top competitive shooters wouldn't use them.

 

[valnar]

I really like the VZ. But prefer the AK.

psyshack, Why is that? Is there a technical reason you think the AK is superior? Or is it because the AK is more ubiquitous?