advice on AK 47 or ar 15

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"Hitting targets on a consistent basis outside of 400y."

Y'know Gus, I always have trouble with this. I don't see engaging targets beyond 400 yards as a useful exercise in a personal or home defense situation. If someone's that far away, they typically do not pose an immediate threat. But if they did, I'd much rather face them with the .300 Win Mag Ruger 77 than with either an AR or an AK.

Of course YMMV and you're in TX and I'm in NY.
 
Either way the weapon is only as good as the man behind it. I had time with both and know what I would choose. I have been shot at by these weapons and know for a fact which I would rather look down. This argument can go on for ever but if the weapon is so good why have the losing militaries used the AK?
 
james2133: "This argument can go on for ever but if the weapon is so good why have the losing militaries used the AK?"

Like North Vietnam? Do you really believe it was the M16 that won Desert Storm? The Iraqi army was destroyed by tanks, artillery and most of all air power. It takes very little analysis to realize that modern military conflicts rarely if ever are decided by the standard issue rifle. I'd be willing to bet that in the majority of conflicts both sides are armed with AKs anyways.
 
I don't remember running around with an AK and If small arms are not an issue why are we trying to dub a superior "combat Weapon"
 
james2133: "I don't remember running around with an AK and If small arms are not an issue why are we trying to dub a superior "combat Weapon"

You don't remember running around with an AK? So you were involved in the majority of conflicts around the world? I said "MOST", not "those james2133" was in.

We are trying to dub a superior combat weapon because this is a gun forum so guns are generally what is discussed. Not to mention, a soldier may be on the winning side but thats of little consolation if he gets killed because his weapon jams. And the majority of us on here aren't buying guns to carry into the next foreign invasion but how they perform in such events provide information in helping to make our selections.
 
james2133: "This argument can go on for ever but if the weapon is so good why have the losing militaries used the AK?"

So you believe that if the Iraq army had AR's and our troops had AK's that the Iraq army would have "won"?
 
It's obvious the best choice is a compromise between both the AR & AK as well as .223 and 7.62x39. So that would make it....uh.....a.... POF gas piston AR-15 in 6.8 SPC. :neener:

Actually, that doesn't sound too bad.
 
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...roversy-03289/

Also, i don't recall the URL but google "Wanat". There is a report out there that perfectly displays what i mean about caveats for AR reliability.
Those dust tests would have been a bit more apples-to-apples had the M4's been allowed to use newer, improved STANAG magazines like the other rifles were. As I recall, the M4's were stuck with old USGI mags, a weak point, and it appears a couple of the M4's were worn out of spec while the other guns were all new.

And as far as Wanat goes...shooting any 6-pound rifle until the barrel is white-hot is going to cause some failures, methinks; ultimately the barrel will melt and burst, if the gas tube doesn't. The M16/M4 is an excellent rifle, but it is a rifle, not a GPMG. Since it's physically impossible for a civilian semiauto AR to get that hot, I'm not sure that's really relevant for civilian guns.

The AK probably has a slight edge in reliability under very extreme conditions, but the difference in reliability between AK's and AR's tends to be vastly exaggerated, IMO. I own both and have never had a failure with either, and I shoot USPSA style carbine matches with cheap steel-case Tula .223.

We are trying to dub a superior combat weapon
The OP was actually asking about which Title 1 semiauto to buy, so durability when white-hot and on fire after firing two or three full combat loads full-auto is less relevant to that question.

Basically, they're both very good, very reliable rifles, and it boils down to personal preference and which one fits your circumstances better.
 
A couple of points.

There is a myth that the AK is easier to use than the AR. Truth is, the AR is a very simple weapon to both field strip and fire effectively.

The whole "I've run MY AR in this and that without malfunctions" is a wash. YOUR AR cost at least $900 after everything is said and done, and I still don't care. I have seen them go down in combat.

"I've seen AKs go down" is another one of those situations where I don't care what you have seen on the range. Yes, they can malfunction. Anything can. However, when the VC hid their AK-47's in rivers until our GI's got close, then pulled them out, charged the handle, pointed the pointy end at our guys and pulled the trigger, they went "boom." Period. When Joe Shmoe goes out and buys a sub-par quality hackjob AK-47 that doesn't work, is that a design flaw or a manufacturer's QC problem? Rhetorical question, of course.

Now, back to the OP's question. My vote, if you are asking for one, is still the AK-47 or the Vz 58. But, if you go to the range with an AR-15 and you fall in love with it, get it. Personally, I don't like them. But that's what makes a capitalist free-market society so great; we have choices and we get to spend our hard-earned money the way we want it.

I'm not so much "Pro-AK47" as I am "anti-AR15." A critical note is this stance is in regards to their original design purpose. For hunting or range work, eh, it's a wash.
 
Well you aren't going to do better than 2" MOA with M885, its been proven. Here is a collection of real data using very well setup testing:
Link please. That's anecdotal evidence from one person. The link I provided is from a reputable ammo manufacturer.
The article you linked to seems to be a bit masturbatory. The author uses phrases like "pundits" and "bafoons" pretty liberally. No, not those specific words, but "flavor" words that really add very little to the article other than making the author sound educated, which I am sure he is.
Pat Rogers is a member here. His credentials are listed in the article: "Pat Rogers is a retired Chief Warrant Officer of Marines and a retired NYPD
Sergeant." I'll let Pat speak for himself as to his other credentials
I personally have never heard anyone say the AR runs better dry than wet. That is nonsense. While I was downrange, however, many of the fobbits would keep their M4's dry to avoid the moondust from congealing in the chamber. This is not unsound, though it may seem at first to contradict what the article says. If the weapon is constantly being shot, proper lubrication should keep it running. A thorough cleaning, lube job, and then toting it around for a day (yes, a day) in an environment like southern Afghanistan or any other similar environ and the weapon WILL jam. This is not speculation, this is observation.
I've run M-16s in the moondust of SW Idaho in a training environment that's near identical to Afghanistan. The moondust chokes everything. I've had M-16s jam from moondust because were told to wipe of all excess lube. The dry dirt choked them. I've also run AR-15s in the fine sand and black dirt of S. Ga. In that environment, my well lubed ARs have run fine. Petroleum soaked sand & dust glides way better than dry dust. I also deployed on TDY to Iraq twice. I was inside a base with a large perimeter, and worked theater air control equipment. I did have to draw an M16 from the armory at times, and to this day I'm grateful I never had to use that rifle. I can't take your experience & observation away; which is far and away more real combat than I was in. I'm glad you're still with us to discuss the really important stuff on the internet like AR vs. AK for civilian use :evil: .

Ugaar, I re-read the entire thread, and I just wanted to tell you that I totally agree with your first post.
Thank you. I apologize for getting off track, and so vehemently defending my pet rifle against your pet rifle. :neener: Like you said, it gets back to getting hands on the rifles, and getting some experience with both.

I do not want this to turn into a you vs me debate; I think everyone's best weapon is the one they are most comfortable with. I DO think, though, that many people gloss over "comfortability" by sub-ing in "ergonomics." The AR is a much more refined and ergonomic rifle than the AK. It doesn't give me peace of mind, though.
I couldn't agree more on that. We often overlook the psychology, the mindset, of fighting & surviving. Believing you're going to win is the first step to winning, to surviving the encounter. If you're not confident in your weapon, that hurts your mindset, and could prove fatal.

I do actually own a Norinco AK (in 5.56 :eek: ). Ergonomically, I really like the cheek weld from the saddle (I guess that's the best way to describe it) of the original Russian style stock. It's a good rifle. Right now I'm more comfortable with my M4geries because I've just spent so much time with AR type rifles. AKs are definitely good rifles though.
 
Pat Rogers is a member here. His credentials are listed in the article: "Pat Rogers is a retired Chief Warrant Officer of Marines and a retired NYPD
Sergeant." I'll let Pat speak for himself as to his other credentials

As I said, I take for granted that the Author is well-versed and intelligent (educated). I stand by my statement that the article seems a bit masturbatory at times; when dealing with weapons I prefer less flavor words. Personal opinion. Many people think my writing is too colorful as well... last time I wrote a "biography" for a SOM Board, my platoon sgt read it, laughed, and tossed it in the shredder before telling me, "Hicks: Who, what, when, where and why. Start over." Lol.

I do actually own a Norinco AK (and it is way better than any AR I have ever held).

There you have it folks! Straight from his mouth of a convert!!! :evil:


















(lol, only kidding :neener:)
 
$20,000?

Really?

Because I'm running a rifle that cost around $1200, and even if you were to factor in the cost of the reloading press I use and components, I'm still nowhere near $20,000, yet I've got a rifle capable of making accurate hits as far out as 500 yards.


When it comes to accuracy, the AK works well enough to hang with the AR out to ~200 yards. Once you start moving past that, the AR outclasses the AK. Some AKs also seem to have issues with vertical stringing once they have enough rounds pumped through them to get them good and hot. I've not seen that problem with an AR that's running a float tube.

Ok I'll bite, can you really reload to a 5.56 Mk262 ? I mean when you reload you are not going to have the KE of the 5.56 at 500 yards, and you really need whats left of that 5.56 power at 500 yards cause you are in mousegun territory as for as KE. Educate me on how one can reload or obtain any 5.56 ammo that is worth a damn for anything bigger than varmits at 500 yards for less than $1 per round short of a government contract for mk262 at cost.

I guess I just don't get the whole long range AR/SPR thing if you aren't in the military, if I am spending that kind of money on ammo it sure isn't going to be for this caliber. Punching paper at 500 yards with a target barrel AR is a lot different than what the OP was referring to, those 20'+ varmit AR's are essentially a completely different gun which has two uses : marmots and paper.
 
The lines are more or less evenly divided; on one side we have the moon dust boys and on the other side are the black 'made in America" guys with toys.

The rope is over the chasm and both sides are pulling with all their might

neither gaining a foot hold in the mind of the opposing team ever so slight

the debate rages and the heels are dug in

each side pontificating their spin.

Valid points all have been made

but alas the war seems like it will never fade.

The 7.62x39 with it's heavier slug for up close

allows their owners to say it provides the most.

The 5.56x45 with it's blistering speed gives many something to say and boast

with it's accuracy they feel it's the most.

Maybe a safe bet would be; if there is no moon dust in your house the AR will be a good bet for any HD need.

Maybe a safe bet would be; if a weapon is needed and you grab an AK it will work as long as you can draw a bead.

To and fro the rope is pulled

any debate on which one is best IMO is just a load of bull.

They will both get the job done and provide their owners with a load of fun.

Thinking about range I have two ARs that are set up for taking long range shots...both have match barrels and chambers....supposedly...
They are the least fired weapons I own because in my area most of the hunting shots are taken at less than 150 yards..

Would I take a shot at a pig at 500 yards with an AR....maybe.... it would just depend on ammo and if I could stalk and get closer; but I would expect it to be a shot to wound and or slow down the piggy not necessarily expecting a kill; dunno never did it..

For me I doubt I would try that shot with either my AK or SKS primarily because I shoot junk ammo in them ( except the mil surplus Yugo, I like!!) and they are bare iron sights or equipped with red dots...I am not consistent with the AK at 325 yards; maybe it is the ammo or the weapon ( or me) but .....at 200 yards or less ( 150ish is better) I do expect the animal is going down. I can't see well enough to take a 500 yard shot without good glass.

Funny I don't paper punch that much; only do that sort of thing when I am sighting in a new weapon. Now that my curiosity is aroused I am going to take a few to the range (if it ever gets cooler?) and try to use good ammo in the weapons and see what comes of it. Luckily I do have the AK, SKS, and a 7.62x39 AR upper. Will first try them against each other with same ammo. Then using the AR-15s 5.56x45 with approx the same quality ammo I will see how they do. Thinking I will start at 200 yards and work my way back using a lead sled with the weapons locked down. Interesting... Still kind of a waste for these weapons were made to hit targets bigger than a ground hog at that range.

Many of the big boys who are serious about the AK are ranting and raving about the 123GR. DPX HUNTER VELOCITY= 2300 FPS / ENERGY= 1445 FTLBS THIS IS THE AMMO WE CARRY IN OUR KALASHNIKOV RIFLES. THE BEST THERE IS....... Supposed to be a hard hitting bullet that is accurate. Have not used it yet. Pigs are barely worth the cost of a Tula round IMO.




Wow I need a cup of coffee.
 
benEzra: "Those dust tests would have been a bit more apples-to-apples had the M4's been allowed to use newer, improved STANAG magazines like the other rifles were. As I recall, the M4's were stuck with old USGI mags, a weak point, and it appears a couple of the M4's were worn out of spec while the other guns were all new."

I'll have to reread it but the article i linked provided much more troubling accounts, studies and information than just that specific study.

benEzra: "And as far as Wanat goes...shooting any 6-pound rifle until the barrel is white-hot is going to cause some failures, methinks; ultimately the barrel will melt and burst, if the gas tube doesn't. The M16/M4 is an excellent rifle, but it is a rifle, not a GPMG."

The rifles did not melt or burst but jammed. Due to the DI system and lack of carrier rails an AR platform at high rate of fire may simply allow too much crap to build up in a way that interferes with bolt/carrier function. The AK design makes it very resistant to dirt or grime induced jamming even at high rates of fire.

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2010-07/what-really-happened-wanat


benEzra: "The AK probably has a slight edge in reliability under very extreme conditions, but the difference in reliability between AK's and AR's tends to be vastly exaggerated, IMO."

I agree, as i stated earlier, that for semi auto versions this is probably correct. For select fire i believe the AK's reliability is more than slightly higher than an ARs. I would also venture though that AKs, ecspecially in 5.45, are more durable than ARs in semi and select fire configurations.

If the ARs DI system were not so problematic, or at least equal to piston driven, why are there no new guns being designed or built with it? Also, why are no new guns being designed with a carrier that travels through a tight tube?
 
Due to the DI system and lack of carrier rails an AR platform at high rate of fire may simply allow too much crap to build up in a way that interferes with bolt/carrier function.
In my opinion, the reliability advantages of the AK are its industrial-strength dump truck of a magazine vs. the delicate and intended-to-be-disposable USGI aluminum mags the AR is often saddled with (newer mag designs narrow that gap a bit); the AK has a somewhat longer stroke and uses a slightly shorter round, so the bolt carrier can get a bit of a running start before hitting the top cartridge in the magazine; and its more open interior design and "floaty" bolt carrier are more tolerant of large debris than the AR's cylindrical receiver is. The very tapered round also gives some theoretical feeding and extraction advantages, at the cost of a very curvy magazine and a short magwell.

On the other hand, the AR does a pretty good job of keeping debris out when buttoned up if you use magazines that fill the magwell (not aluminum USGI); the AK is more tolerant of debris in the receiver but doesn't button up as tight, and I suspect that indigenous AK users in the middle east wrap their rifles in sandstorms and clean them after just like M16/M4 users.

I don't think DI has all that much to do with it, honestly; I don't see good DI AR's being any less reliable than piston-upper AR's in 5.56mm with normal-length barrels, although pistons definitely have an edge with very short barrels and sound suppressors due to pressure/timing issues.

As far as fouling, unless you're running a sound suppressor, in my observation an AK and an AR get comparably dirty from similar round count. The AR vents most of its gas to the atmosphere after bolt carrier launch just like the AK, and the AR puts a bit of gas into the receiver from case blowby during extraction, also just like the AK does. The AR gas tube also adds a very small amount of gas into the receiver from residual gas tube flow during extraction, but this is not enough to make much of a fouling difference in an unsuppressed gun.

IMO, powder residue is rarely a cause of jams in a properly put together weapon, if some lubricant is squirted in there every thousand rounds or so and the rifle started out lubricated. Foreign debris/contamination is far more likely to jam both designs than powder residue is.

If the ARs DI system were not so problematic, or at least equal to piston driven, why are there no new guns being designed or built with it?
A good question. I'd venture it's the case because any DI gun that's not an AR is going to have a very hard time competing against the AR. The AR's DI system has been refined by a half-century of trial and error, the system is already modular enough to become anything from a pistol to a big-bore rifle, and the Stoner design has the imprimatur of 5 decades of military service, so there simply isn't much incentive to reinvent that particular wheel. On the other hand, piston guns offer a means to differentiate a new gun from the Stoner design and create marketing talking points, so piston designs probably have a bit better chance of being a viable non-AR alternative in the market.

Since the evolved Stoner design is the longest serving and most successful infantry rifle the USA has ever fielded and is the top selling centerfire rifle in the United States, I don't know that lack of DI replacements for it is necessarily an argument against the merits of the platform. True, it's not being superseded by another DI, but it's not being superseded by piston guns either, even though plenty have tried.

I do think the FN SCAR-H/Mk 17 offers definite advantages over 7.62mm AR's, though, but the latter have been far less refined over the years than 5.56mm AR's have.

Also, why are no new guns being designed with a carrier that travels through a tight tube?
Because only a DI gun is practical with that receiver design, and no one is making new DI designs because they wouldn't be competitive against the AR.

You could certainly do DI with rails if you wanted, but it's very hard to do non-DI without rails; a piston gun can't avoid off-axis torque, so piston guns require carrier rails to prevent tilt.
 
Admittedly, I'm an AK fanboy, but I'll try to be as fair as possible.

AR:
* Lots of good makers
* Very accurate
* Modular
* Optics
* Rails
* More calibers
* Pricey
* Requiers a good bit of maintenance
* Not very user friendly for beginners
* The iron sights are a pain


AK:
* Arsenal is good.
* cheaper
* rugged
* Great iron sights.
* Accesories
* Lefty and ambidextrous friendly
* The ergonomics are great.
* Tough magazines
* All the accuracy you are liable to need out of an intermediate weapon.

Of course, with me, I'm going to tell you to go with the AK. Admittedly, I never figured out why people moan about the ergonomics and the reloading.
 
Admittedly, I'm an AK fanboy, but I'll try to be as fair as possible.

AR:
* Lots of good makers
* Very accurate
* Modular
* Optics
* Rails
* More calibers
* Pricey
* Requiers a good bit of maintenance
* Not very user friendly for beginners
* The iron sights are a pain


AK:
* Arsenal is good.
* cheaper
* rugged
* Great iron sights.
* Accesories
* Lefty and ambidextrous friendly
* The ergonomics are great.
* Tough magazines
* All the accuracy you are liable to need out of an intermediate weapon.

Of course, with me, I'm going to tell you to go with the AK. Admittedly, I never figured out why people moan about the ergonomics and the reloading.


Another thread clearly lists the argument between the two sights. So the sights on the two guns is more of a preference. I prefer apeture sights on all of my rifles but that's just me.

Ergonomics are a preference as well.

However I don't understand the "not very user friendly for beginners" comment. This isn't the only time that it's been mentioned and it has me confused. Can someone explain what they mean when they post this?
 
^ What I mean about user friendliness is that the controls on the AR are smaller and in my opinion, easier to flub or have issues with when you're stressing out in a tough situation. For example, getting an AK to fire is a matter of pulling back on the big charging handle and pushing the selector down. On an AR, you have to pull back a smaller charging handle and often the fire control switch has to be manipulated in an arc. The AK mag catch is also easier to find and hit as well.
 
Without a doubt the AR15 over the AK. Besides the fact that most of the AKs being imported now are unmitigated crap, you have to think about parts and ammo availability. Most 5.56x45 is produced in the US in copious amounts. The 7.62x39 not so much. 95% of it is imported from Russia and that can be cut off by the stroke of a pen.

DSCF3910.jpg
 
^ What I mean about user friendliness is that the controls on the AR are smaller and in my opinion, easier to flub or have issues with when you're stressing out in a tough situation. For example, getting an AK to fire is a matter of pulling back on the big charging handle and pushing the selector down. On an AR, you have to pull back a smaller charging handle and often the fire control switch has to be manipulated in an arc. The AK mag catch is also easier to find and hit as well.

This is again a matter of preference and I have to correct you on the AR sequence. I prefer the controls of the AR and find that for the most part very similar to handling a 1911.

I'm assuming your speaking of the safety when you mention fire control switch. On an AR the safety cannot be engaged unless the hammer is cocked and ready to fire. Much like a thumb safety on a 1911. So the sequence is pull back the charging hand and pull the trigger the gun will go bang. Using your example of the AK you have to pull back the charging handle push the selector down pull trigger and go bang. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You can get larger charging handles for the AR if the standard handle is too small. I prefer BCM Gunfighter 3 handle. The safety is still inactivated by a downward swipe of the thumb.

The magazine release is just a finger click away. Just extend your index finger and press. (That's if your a right handed shooter. I can see issues with it if your a lefty but I think there are products out there to help lefties.) Also this is where it departs from the 1911 controls but it isn't much to remember to extend your finger.

Let's talk about magazine changes. This is always glossed over in the AR vs AK debate and is important especially if your transitioning from the handgun discipline to rifles.

The AK doesn't lock back after the last round which may not be an issue to most but it is for me. To me it's not very efficient to insert a new magazine and pull back the charging handle again to charge the new round. Also the magazines have to be rocked in instead of going in straight, which again is not something I would be used to doing.

At least on an AR you can push in the new magazine hit the magazine with your thumb while seating the magazine and you're ready to fire again. No need to pull the charging handle again.

However like most of this post is a matter of preference. Someone stated that the OP should shoot both and then decide which gun to get instead of weighing on the opinions of others he doesn't know.

I learned that lesson a long time ago and always shoot a gun before purchasing it. I've spent too much money to buy a weapon only to find something I didn't like about it while shooting it.
 
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