advice on AK 47 or ar 15

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I love these AK versus AR threads :)

My humble contribution.............
I always see "oh you can change uppers to various calibers on a AR"
Well yes you can....
I have AK's in 30.06/.308/7.62X39/5.56 all converted Saiga's.
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And the old standard...."In SHTF there will be more AR mags and ammo....."
OK...So I converted one of my 5.56 AK's to take AR mags. Rock solid :)
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The whole "there will be more 223 than 7,62x39 when SHTF" will never end. Ever since 2008 ak 47s have sold like crazy. With all these "prepers" and paranoid freaks rising from the wake of a deteriorating economy, natural disasters and the on going threat of terrorism the informed know that there are JUST as many 7,62x39 rounds and weapons out there...if not more than 223. If not and things go to hell then I have no problem picking up an ar after putting 1 124grain round into a guy who's shooting a round that has trouble going through cinder blocks.

I love the fact that I can feed my arsenal ak everything from hornady, winchester and all the way down the bottom of the bucket wolf ammo. It chews it up and spits it out every time without having to baby the rifle by turning a knob so you can feed the right amount of gas to the system so it can function properly. The same can't be said about SOME ar's that require "premium" ammo to function.

I mean honestly if it wasn't for politics and bureaucratic paper pushers the U.S would be using ak's. But that would be like the president speaking russian to his constituents. It's considered crimes against America to use anything but the ar.

The 223/5.56 will do the job even against a civilian/police bullet resistant vest. The 223/5.56 is a low grain round but it's pretty hot. In practical terms if SHTF your going to be taking down human enemies not grizzly bears so common knowledge says a 223/5.56 will do the jobs against a man. However, other factors do play a role. Lets take a look at them.


Accuracy From a Realistic Point Of View

It was a long and intrenched idea that the ar-15 has superior accuracy over the ak. This was true for a while until some of the newer ak 47s came out. Contrary to popular belief the ar, in a combat situation, is not a sub moa rifle. Neither is the ak so in reality the accuracy of the rifle, in a practical fire fight, can be played in a game of inches. If someone has an ar-15 at 100 yards, aims center mass and hits 1moa that is a kill shot. If someone with an ak at the same distance aims center mass and hits 2.5moa with a 7,62 round that is also a kill shot. You can talk about bench shooting MOA all you like but in a realistic environment that bench doesn't mean anything. Ultimately it comes down to what it always came down to....the person handling the weapon.

Reliability/Durability

With it's reputation of being a juggernaut the ak 47 was designed for this specific reason. That doesn't go to say that the ar can't handle it's own. However, if you baby ANY rifle it's going to go bang every time. Again realistic combat situations come into play where you might go through 100's of rounds, in the elements and maybe days without cleaning your rifle. In this realistic situation your not in kansas anymore with your bench gun vise, shelf full of oil and breakfree clp. As I stated before Iran soldiers tie knots in their shoelaces, dip them in used motor oil and run it through the barrel not even touching the receiver. Would you fire 100's maybe even 1000's of rounds with a dry ar-15?

Cost

Some Ak-47s are staying cheap while others like the arsenal line are getting in the 7-$800 range base. With an adjustable stock, picatinny rails upper and lower in front, pistol grip, fore grip, and a red dot my arsenal costs about as much as some ar's base. Cheaper if you consider some variants like KAC and H&K. As stated above maintenance is low for the ak, ammo is dirt cheap, and they have just as many amenities as the barbie guns...I mean ar's :eek:.

Ballistics

As I said before the 223/5.56 round is a man stopper. No debating that I don't care what people say. The 7,62 is too if you consider REALISTIC ranges. A 223/5.56 is putting out about 12xxlbs of muzzle energy. The 7,62 is putting out about 15xxlbs of muzzle energy. That being said lets ask a practical question. If you were shooting at some one behind a wall what would you rather have? Considering the target (a human being) BOTH will do the job. Put that target in some dynamic hurdles and that is the equalizer. Lets remember ballistics don't mean jack when it's a well placed round.

Round Capacity

Regular sized mags in both weapons are around 30rounds. If you consider high capacity mags the ar has the 100 round bata mag and the ak has a 75 round drum. I've heard of a chinese 100 round 7,62 drum but it has questionable reliability. Realistically is it practical to carry such capacity?

Upgrades

It's a well known fact that the ar has just as many accessories as your daughters barbie dolls. As of lately the ak market has come into it's own as well. Optics, optic mounts grips and such are all available to the ak now and have been for a while. Especially with ak's like the 74/107/108 and soon to be released 200.

Weight

With accessories they are about the same.

Track Record

Both have a long reputation. Both are going to have people swear by them. People will go down by either one. When the smoke clears....IMHO, the ak will be left standing. However, a weapon is only as dangerous as the person shooting it. That's the ultimate truth.
 
I have one beater AR lower at the shop that I use for testing......and have fired 22LR,10mm, 9mm, 45 acp, 7.62 x 25, 5.56 x 45, 7.62 x 39, and soon to add 5.7 x 28 as I'm workin on a new upper.....:D
I like AK's, I have one.........but you can't just change uppers and add a magwell adaptor to an AK....
 
forget em both and get a semi .22LR

That's the only real SHTF rifle.

All the rest are meant for the battlefield or Call of Duty.


(and yes, I have a Colt LE6920 all Larue mounted Aimpoint Comp M4s and 3x Aimpoint swivel mounted scope with BUIS and Magpul stock - completely mall nija'd.)

But nope, the 'lowly' 22lr is my scoot and shoot gun.
 
I had no idea when I started this thread that there would be such a wealth of knowledge. Since I'm just getting into rifles(been into hand guns and shotguns a while) I never knew what a raging debate it was over the ak and the ar. But after reading all the info I decided on the arsenal ak, just debating now what I want it chambered in. I'm leaning towards athe 7.62x39. The realiability is what has made me go this rout on my first rifle because my pistols have all been 100% reliable...(well except my pesky ruger, that is in prescott AZ getting worked on) and thats a good feeling.
I'll eventually get an AR, probly with my tax return check. At first the reliability of them scared me but as anal as I am out cleaning and lubing guns I'm sure it will run fine. Theres just so many to choose from, that its mind blowing. However I like the stag arms model 2. I also like the looks of the Ruger .556e I believe its called.
 
browneu, I feel the same way. Believe it or not, I find the lack of a BHO feature the AK-47's main drawback. That's how much I love the gun, and that is the only thing I can see on it that I really, really, really, would like to change.

thefamcnaj, Arsenals are a great choice. I would stick with the 7.62, but the 5.45 gives you the option of trading off the amount of ammo you can carry for lack of penetration. Each has it's purpose, but in my mindset bigger is generally better.

On a side note, I just got back from a STX that lasted the past three days. The rifle I was issued went down on me in the middle of a firefight. I grabbed the weapon of the casualty whom I was working on and returned fire, finished my aid, and bounded forward. After the scenario had played out, I grabbed one of my infantry friends who I argue with constantly (AR vs AK) and just HAD to let him know how GREAT his weapon of choice worked... puke. It was swimming in oil as well. If I had been in Afghanistan, I would probably be dead, or at the very least having a very bad couple of days. GOD I hate the AR's.

I will admit, it is possible I could be doing something wrong. It's also possible that I could be sending too many negative vibes to Sam Colt's barbie gun. It could possible have a grudge on me. I possibly could just have the worst luck in the world with AR-platform rifles in the field. Or, it could be one of the worst designs for a military weapon ever made. YMMV.
 
7,62x39 is the most widely available here in the U.S. You can get it chambered in the 5,45x39 too. The dollar amount difference is only $2-3 I think. The Arsenal SGL-21 is chambered in 7,62 and the SGL-31 is the 5,45. The SLR-106 comes in 5.56nato but is a little harder to find. If you have the right stuff you can get a SA M-7 in full rock and roll.

A little more info on the 5,45 is below.

Common 7,62.39

  • Muzzle Velocity - ~2450ft/sec
  • Muzzle Energy - ~15xxft lbs
  • Bullet Weight - 122-125grains
  • Average Price - $4.50-$10/20pack

Great plinking ammo is tulammo. It's steel case with polymer coating, non corrosive primer, accurate and cheap. If you want to reload there is other choices like most of the other popular names. Unfortunately black hills ammo doesn't make any ammo for the round. Buying in bulk is a lot less stressful than buying 223 ammo. You can get 1000 rounds for ~$220 shipped.

5,45x39.5 Round

  • Muzzle Velocity - ~2850-2936ft/sec
  • Muzzle Energy - ~?ft lbs
  • Bullet Weight - 55-60grains
  • Average Price - $6-$10/20pack

This is a hot round that still has some power to go through a cinder block wall even with such a light bullet. The down side is only 3 manufactures make it. Hornady, tulammo and bear ammunition. Some what hard to find ammo depending where you look and how much you want to spend.

In conclusion I would go with the 7,62x39 simply cause it's readily available at retail stores and on line. Don't worry about the lack of ability to change parts on the ak. With an ak....You won't need to:neener:. Leave that to the barbie guns.

Oh before I forget you can get a draco :evil:. It's the "pistol" version of the ak 47. Nothing like having a pistol and rifle that use the same ammo :D.

If the AK doesn't scare them away the muzzle flash from the draco will :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le-db6AEt1c&feature=related
 
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forget em both and get a semi .22LR

That's the only real SHTF rifle.

All the rest are meant for the battlefield or Call of Duty.


(and yes, I have a Colt LE6920 all Larue mounted Aimpoint Comp M4s and 3x Aimpoint swivel mounted scope with BUIS and Magpul stock - completely mall nija'd.)

But nope, the 'lowly' 22lr is my scoot and shoot gun

Take all that weight off your Colt, replace the barrel with a 14.5" middy pencil barrel, get it under 6lbs, then you may see the real advantage of the platform. Ergonomic, fast manuverable as hell. Practical. Just have a 6" rimifire semi pistol for scavaging food when you scoot and shoot with your AR.
 
Last week I sighted in my AR. Today I sighted in my Saiga which is the better of the AK types. With the AK (Saiga) I had trouble with the sights. I bought a side mount and put a 3-9 scope on it. With 4 types of ammo including Federal brass case groups were around 3 inches at 50 yards, with lots of flyers. Both are low recoil and pleasant to shoot. The AR is more compact and much lighter. The Saiga also had trouble feeding pointed ammo but I was able to fix that. If you want long range go M1A, handy and accurate the AR, Cheap the AK. The difference in reliablity is overstated, the difference in accuracy is huge. I've tried several AK's, a Saiga and a SKS all with dismal results but are fun to shoot.
 
I've tried several AK's, a Saiga and a SKS all with dismal results but are fun to shoot.

I realize all weapons have slight variations.

I sighted in my AK with a new DogLeg scope mount, gen.2 model from Texas Weapon Systems and a cheap Bushnell red dot two days ago. I had serious questions about the mount and the optic.

With Tula ammo at 27 yards once I got everything dialed in it was consistently producing two rounds touching and one impact within 3/4". This was with 154gr soft point and several 3 shot groups.

I then changed ammo and went with the Yugo ammo at 55 yards. It was shooting slightly high yet again was grouping with usually two touching or at least all rounds were within a 3" circle. My Ak has a synthetic skeleton stock and is chromed lined; purchased from Centerfire Systems and put together and modified for hi-cap mags by some guys (not monkeys) in Tenn. for less than $400.

There is a target at 327 yards I have taken a few shots at with the Tula 154gr before. Rainbow arc them in and get lucky hardly ever....Tula with same carry over as the Yugo will impact about 60 yards short..The Yugo had just about 3" carry over (2 dots) and all rounds were impacting close or on target...6 shots taken with 2 hits; 3 just over target with one just under.

I have a couple of ARs I can put rounds on that 14" steel plate 10 out of 10 or 12 shots without even trying...But....They are set up for long range shooting with good scopes.

Both my Norinco SKSs will hit the 325 yard target (Yugo ammo) if I do my part but my eyes are getting old and it is getting harder for me to use iron sights. Have not done that lately and have forgotten the carry over I was using but they are not used for long range pig popping. I get just about the same results with my AR chambered in 7.62x39 with an Eotech 512 using the same ammo. So as some have said before Ammo makes a big difference.

I never ever thought the AK could keep up with the SKS much less the ARs.....well guess I am changing my mind in some ways. If I were fighting me with the AK I would really try to be at 350 yards with one of the ARs and decent ammo. Pretty sure the ARs I have would triumph over the SKSs Or AK.... but within 200 yards I really do like the 7.62x39 and find them all capable of an accurate kill shot..In the above 200 yard me on me case who knows who would come out on top unless it was me; gotta like those odds!!!

I had never figured an AK to be accurate or even in the same league as many other weapons; figured minute of man or feral pig at 150 yards and good to go. Think many choices of optics and optic mounts due to height ( cheek weld not good ) or Micky mouse attachments have hurt and fed the AK accuracy rumor mill for several years simply because guys did not think they were accurate to begin with so really never tweaked or really tried to get them down to their potential....not all but probably the majority of AK owners..Also a lot of our vets were shot at and missed by the AK so they figured they were not all that accurate to begin with; commie POS. It was not the rifle as much as the guy using it IMO.

I would have gone to the hundred yard target but had only brought 3 mags and two targets with me and not having a spotter scope or one of my scoped rifles I did not feel like walking back and forth to the target checking holes.. Yea I know I dumb and blind too but I left with a new respect for the AK.
 
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I think the hidden question in all this is how much ammo you think is a good safety stock and how much money you have to spend.

For the average guy I think buying an SLG-31 and 10k rounds of 7N6 for $2300 is a better choice than a Colt 6920 +10k rounds of LC XM193 for $4400.

Performancy/accuracy/range is a wash between the two rifles shooting surplus ammo. The Ak-74 has a bonus of new available bulgarian 45 round mags under $35 dollars.

If you want 1MOA and long range you are going to have to buy mk262 which takes us up to $11200 and you will probably need to add a quality scope for another couple grand.

To really take the AR above the AK in performance you have to spend a lot of money, is it really worth it?

I think the real question folks should be asking is what is the better SBR, the draco convert/amd65 or the 12.5" AR. Probably either one would be a better all purpose survival rifle than the old AR vs Ak debate.

I never understand the concern with longe range performance for these rifles types, if we ever get in a situation where we need to depend on a 200+ yard semi auto fire then it would be a full war which is rediculous to think any of us besides a few multi-millionares could be prepared for. I think people play too many fantasy video games!
 
I think the hidden question in all this is how much ammo you think is a good safety stock and how much money you have to spend.

For the average guy I think buying an SLG-31 and 10k rounds of 7N6 for $2300 is a better choice than a Colt 6920 +10k rounds of LC XM193 for $4400.

Performancy/accuracy/range is a wash between the two rifles shooting surplus ammo. The Ak-74 has a bonus of new available bulgarian 45 round mags under $35 dollars.

If you want 1MOA and long range you are going to have to buy mk262 which takes us up to $11200 and you will probably need to add a quality scope for another couple grand.

To really take the AR above the AK in performance you have to spend a lot of money, is it really worth it?

I think the real question folks should be asking is what is the better SBR, the draco convert/amd65 or the 12.5" AR. Probably either one would be a better all purpose survival rifle than the old AR vs Ak debate.

I never understand the concern with longe range performance for these rifles types, if we ever get in a situation where we need to depend on a 200+ yard semi auto fire then it would be a full war which is rediculous to think any of us besides a few multi-millionares could be prepared for. I think people play too many fantasy video games!
Exactly... .308!
 
Performance accuracy a wash? Factory rifles and cheap ammo. 1.5 moa vs 6 moa. For 200-300 hundred dollars I spend the money and get an AR. I own both, am a combat vet. I don't want to rehash the accuracy arguement but anyone who thinks they are close stock with comparable ammo has never shot both in unbiased tests. Under 50 yards an Ak has an edge in penetration and tissue damage. Beyond 100-150 yards the loss of accuracy and poor trajectory of the AK doom it .Yes you may put 25% of your shots on target with an AK at 300 meters if you have time and a good rest. Compare that to an AR, that is much faster on target and 4 times more accurate. Unsupported standard military shooting positions, of rack rifle and ammo, 100% of hits on popup targets at 400 meters. Out of 10 shots my AK may put 2 or 3 at most in 1 moa, the rest will be 6 moa, with some outside of that with any ammo I've tested. That is from a rest with a scope on the AK. In very close spray and pray the AR loses it advantage, but in aimed fire the AR is best by far.
 
Mind you I don't play with ARs but have plenty of experence with M16A2s and AKs. The AK can still reliably hit man sized targets at 150yd , but my M16 would group a 30rd mag nicley center mass at 300yd. I have never once in my enite life had an AK jam on me, every M16 I have ever used has jamed repeatedly dispite through cleaning and great care not to get any sand/dirt into the action. One that I used in basic would jam 2-4 times per mag dispite being clean as it could be. In the brush or urban setting the AK is the clear winner, better penatration, greater damage, and a heck of alot more reliable in adverse conditions. In open country the M16 romps all over it even if you do have to clear the occasional jam.
 
I love how people consider 300meters practical shooting :rolleyes:. I dont know what others shooting an ak hit but at 200meters with iron sights all my shots arein the 9 ring or less
 
Well when you say AKs you have to remember that they are made by several companies in as many countries, I have shot many of them, some clearly more accurate then others.
 
ya that's true my buddies wasr 10 is canted WAY left.

As to this date I have fixed 2 that the sights were canted off left. I told one of the guys to close his eyes and ears and I could fix it! His remark was something to the effect that the rifle was a POS the way it was now and he did not care if I broke something. I took a rubber hammer and knocked the front sight over so that by my eye balls it was straight; I could have spent more time but he was happy. Now he thinks he likes the AK. When some monkey presses the barrel in crocked then I can not help someone but the canted sight thing is a 2 minute job that seems to work well.
 
As to this date I have fixed 2 that the sights were canted off left. I told one of the guys to close his eyes and ears and I could fix it! His remark was something to the effect that the rifle was a POS the way it was now and he did not care if I broke something. I took a rubber hammer and knocked the front sight over so that by my eye balls it was straight; I could have spent more time but he was happy. Now he thinks he likes the AK. When some monkey presses the barrel in crocked then I can not help someone but the canted sight thing is a 2 minute job that seems to work well.
ya I've seen the youtube videos. It just makes me wonder about the quality...not of the gun per say but of the builders
 
if you have other preppers who you will be teaming up with i would find out what rifles they have for when shtf. however i highly recomend the arsenal sgl 21. i bought one this year & love it great rifle wish i would have bought one sooner. big plus for shtf is training & one nice thing for the ak is cheap ammo. about $220 for 1000 rds of 7.62x39. .223 is about $300 for 1000 rds so that isn't bad either however 7.62x51 or .308 is exspensive. mill surplus is about $80 for 200 rds. so ammo weight & cost does come into play. if i only had one rifle to rely on it would be my arsenal sgl ak even though i have an ar, mini 14 & m1a's my goto is the arsenal sgl 21.
 
You don't have an armorer. I have served accross the US and a couple continenents and in combat. I have never seen it and if it did happen it would be fixed pronto. What units use lots of AKs?
 
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I guess you've never been in a gun fight. 300 meters is not far enough for me. But I support your right to shoot whatever you like. I try to cover all the bases because the other guys are looking for your uncovered ones.
 
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You don't have an armorer. I have served accross the US and a couple continenents and in combat. I have never seen it and if it did happen it would be fixed pronto. What units use lots of AKs?
I see a lot of military contractors with ak's and sks. what bases were not covered?
 
I guess you've never been in a gun fight. 300 meters is not far enough for me.

I think it is dangerous to think that hunters and target shooters who have never seen combat would ever be successful engaging a gunfight over 100m. Someone with experience and the background, sure if they are with a well resourced army. But most of us would be foolish to ever consider using these defense weapons for that long of a range. If things get that bad its a completely different dynamic, pure war which takes billions of dollars to fight, doesn't matter how good a rifle you have.

To be prepared and you are stuck on AR's folks should be looking at lightweight handy cqc types. Look at a 5 lb AR with a 12.5" pencil barrel, IMHO average guy is going to be all round better served than a 300 yard 20" SS bull barrel AR that weighs as much as a Garand and has throat erosion in less than 10k rounds. And don't forget for 300+ yard ballistics and accuracy with an AR you need to spend $1 per round, thats $10k dollars.

So I keep saying unless you are very rich, your criterea is should be 100y max with these sort of rifles.

There is speculation that at 300 yards the 7n6 has better ballistics than m855 because it never relies on fragmentation, at 300 yards the xm193/M855 are at the .22lr type wound. Is the 7n6 any better? I doubt it. The 77 mk262 is proven better but its $1 per round and can't shoot thru safety glass.

As usual if my understanding is wrong, I don't take offense to being countered, but this is how I see things.
 
I think it is dangerous to think that hunters and target shooters who have never seen combat would ever be successful engaging a gunfight over 100m. Someone with experience and the background, sure if they are with a well resourced army. But most of us would be foolish to ever consider using these defense weapons for that long of a range. If things get that bad its a completely different dynamic, pure war which takes billions of dollars to fight, doesn't matter how good a rifle you have.

To be prepared and you are stuck on AR's folks should be looking at lightweight handy cqc types. Look at a 5 lb AR with a 12.5" pencil barrel, IMHO average guy is going to be all round better served than a 300 yard 20" SS bull barrel AR that weighs as much as a Garand and has throat erosion in less than 10k rounds. And don't forget for 300+ yard ballistics and accuracy with an AR you need to spend $1 per round, thats $10k dollars.

So I keep saying unless you are very rich, your criterea is should be 100y max with these sort of rifles.

There is speculation that at 300 yards the 7n6 has better ballistics than m855 because it never relies on fragmentation, at 300 yards the xm193/M855 are at the .22lr type wound. Is the 7n6 any better? I doubt it. The 77 mk262 is proven better but its $1 per round and can't shoot thru safety glass.

As usual if my understanding is wrong, I don't take offense to being countered, but this is how I see things.
ideally if he's a threat and I need to take him out at 300 meters I would rather go with a .308 heavy barrel dedicated shooter. Not a 55 grain fmj.
 
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