Advice requested from the SA 1911 guys!

[ttownthomas]

OK,

I decided to finally treat myself to a 1911. My first pistol is an East German Makarov and I have shot a few thousand rounds through it but by no means am I a gun expert. I really have narrowed my search down to a few makes Colt, SA and Kimber. I can see pros and cons for each one. Since that time I stumbled across a used gun listing for a customised SA Mil-Spec (on this site but in the Buy, Sell, Trade section) and I'm not sure how this gun will compare to a similar gun My dealer has incoming. All-in both guns will cost almost exactly the same amount. Here are the details:

New gun from Dealer:
Springfield Stainless Loaded PX9151LP

Used Mil Spec with around 1,000 rounds through it (reliably acording to the owner):

Has had the following Springfield custom shop modifications:

Install F & R Heinie Straight 8 Night Sights
Install Ramped Barrel
Modify frame (presumably for ramped barrel)
Install Long Solid pad trigger
Perform Action job 4-4.5#
Install Beavertail Grip Safety
Perform Carry Bevel
Perform Front Strap Serration
Deburr pistol internally
Install ambidextrous thumb safety
Install Delta style Hammer

If you look at the web site for the "Loaded" it has many of the features of the custom gun but my gut says that a good gunsmith has turned this ordinary mil-spec into a really fine gun.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

P.S. if anybody wants to give me a few pointers on what to look for condition wise on a used 1911 that would be awesome too. I'll be meeting him to see it tomorrow.

thanks

Chris Thomas

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Get yourself a brand new Loaded.

I have a Loaded. It reliably feeds any ammo I stick in it and shoots great groups.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you look at the web site for the "Loaded" it has many of the features of the custom gun but my gut says that a good gunsmith has turned this ordinary mil-spec into a really fine gun

You might ask yourself, "Why is this gun for sale?" It could be that a not-so-good gunsmith has boogered up a nice .45.

I'd go with the new gun, and expect Customer Service to fix any problems that might develop -- instead of shelling out $$$ to have one gunsmith fix what another screwed up.

 

[JoeMal]

You might ask yourself, "Why is this gun for sale?" It could be that a not-so-good gunsmith has boogered up a nice .45.

I'd go with the new gun, and expect Customer Service to fix any problems that might develop -- instead of shelling out $$$ to have one gunsmith fix what another screwed up.

Vern makes a great point. I would go with the NIB Loaded. I assume SA would void any warranty on the Mil-Spec gun simply because a third-party gunsmith has already worked on it. So if anything happens down the road, it would be up to you to get it fixed. Where a new Loaded could go back to SA for repair

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Vern, said what I wanted to say....I just didn't want to offend the guy selling the gun in the THR classifieds...LOL.

 

[Magoo]

I'll go against the other two posters. If it was the SA custom shop that did the work, the pistol has been worked over by some fine smiths and likely runs very well. The CS has already fixed any issues that sometimes come with a production gun.

 

[ttownthomas]

All the modifications were done by Springfield. He has the receipts. Also he is selling 5 1911's. 4 colts and this mil spec. I haven't asked why he is selling them.

 

[500grains]

Chris, I have shot the 1911 extensively since 1979. I have carried a gun daily since 1993 and I have carried a 1911 about 50% of that time because I love it and shoot it well. So I am not anti-1911 in any regard. But I would like to offer a few frank comments. Please do not take them personally because they are not directed to you or anyone in particular. They are just comments from my experience.

1. The 1911 is a pistol for experts only in my opinion. It takes a LOT more practice to handle a 1911 safely and competently than some other pistols out there. That being said, if you really put in the time and effort to master your 1911, you can be a great shooter like the IPSC guys. But if you are a casual pistol shooter not intending to put a solid 10,000 rounds through a 1911 before using it for concealed carry, then I would suggest a different route.

2. WWI and WWII 1911s were reliable in large part because they were very loose and sloppy and would work then mud or dust got in them. But as a result they were also inaccurate. Newly made 1911s tend to be tight because the consumer wants an accurate pistol. But that makes the pistol less tolerant to dust, mud, carbon, etc. Some 1911s are so tight when new that a minimum of 500 rounds needs to go through them before any evaluation on reliability can be made, as the tightness tends to cause hangups. That can be the case with some of the best 1911 makers out there.

3. In order to be reliable for high round count, some parts on your 1911 need to be replaced on a regular basis BEFORE THEY BREAK. [Same with the M16 / M4 which is one of the reasons our military still has trouble with it.]

4. One special operations group that I know of gave up the 1911, although they loved it, because it just was not practical to have gunsmiths standing by wherever they went.

5. I would divide the 1911 makers into three tiers: top, middle and bottom. IMO, both SA and Kimber are middle tier. Both have problems. SA has a slide cast in Brazil. Kimber has become relatively famous for function problems out of the box (feed ramp and barrel gap issues from what I have been able to ascertain). Having owned both I would not buy them again. Customer service is great from SA and sucky from Kimber IMO.

6. If I were buying a 1911 to shoot extensively and carry for personal defense, it would be either a Wilson Combat or a Les Baer. These are expensive guns. It takes a LOT of experience/knowledge AND a LOT of hand labor to make a 1911 both accurate and reliable. Wilson and Les Baer have that ability. Others do too I am sure, but the ones I know of tend to be even more expensive than Les Baer and Wilson. You can get a NIB Les Baer Thunder Ranch 1911 for $1700, which is a pretty darned good deal.

7. If you want a 1911 to plink with or to train with but not use for personal defense then reliability is not so much of an issue and you can discount the comments that I made above.

8. Any used 1911, even a famed WWII 1911 maker or a real Colt Series 70 from the 70s needs to be carefully gone over by a very competent 1911 smith or you are rolling the dice on reliability (and thus on your life.)

9. For just $900 you can get an HK45 which is a great gun, accurate, reliahble, nice trigger. In the short run and the long run it will be more reliable than a 1911. And the HK will cost almost zero to maintain.

10. For just $375 in my locality you can get a Ruger SR-9 in 9mm plus a whole bunch of ammo to practice with before you hit the price of a good 1911. Today's top quality 9mm ammo, like Speer Gold Dots and Hornady's red tip ammo, gives terminal performance that is on the heels of the .45 acp. I point this out simply because it is a less expensive way to become a really good shot with a defensive pistol.

That is all for now. Good luck!

 

[G27RR]

5. I would divide the 1911 makers into three tiers: top, middle and bottom. IMO, both SA and Kimber are middle tier. Both have problems. SA has a slide cast in Brazil.

500grains, Springfield slides and frames are forged, not cast.

 

[ttownthomas]

Thanks for the feedback 500Grains. Sometimes The heart wants what it wants! FYI...I dont plan to carry this gun. Too hard to conceal when you are 180 lbs and wear tucked in shirts to work every day.

By the way 500grains. Do you think a $600 1911 with $800 worth of factory gunsmithing gets anywhere close to a $1700 1911?

 

[MICHAEL T]

WWI and WWII 1911s were reliable in large part because they were very loose and sloppy and would work then mud or dust got in them. But as a result they were also inaccurate.

I take issue with that I have owned a 1941 ColtUSGI and a 1943 Remington Rand USGI Both these were 90% pistols all original. They were not loose and sloppy they were as tight as a new Colt today. They also were more accurate than I was. Yes I fired them They were made to shoot not look at.. The ones we carried in Nam were loose because they were worn out by then But as issued in WWII they were not..

 

[ttownthomas]

anyway.......

Anybody have any more opinions about New vs Factory gunsmithed?

ttownthomas
AKA Chris Thomas

 

[G27RR]

The SA gunsmithed version is awfully tempting if you want the same feature set as the previous owner. I don't know the seller, but it seems worth a shot - especially since the seller has documentation that SA did the work.

If it isn't very close to what you want, get the loaded and have SA make whatever changes you want at a later date after you've saved a bit more.

 

[ttownthomas]

The features are exactly what I want. It would be perfect if it was blued.

 

[ttownthomas]

here is his post:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=589305

 

[BullfrogKen]

If Springfield did the work, and he has the itemized bill to prove it, I'd be comfortable the work. If it comes out to a hundred or two off from a new Loaded gun, I think you'd be ahead.

I'd take issue with a LOT of 500grains opinions, though.

1. - The 1911 is NOT for "experts only". And it does NOT take ten thousand rounds to master it. Jeff Cooper said it took him more range time to teach someone to master a DA/SA trigger because of the transition between the pulls. I've seen women on the range master the 1911 in a weekend and 800 rounds, so I'd agree with The Colonel.

Sloppy and loose does not make reliable. I've seen sloppy and loose fits seize up from debris. It's all about critical tolerances in certain places. As long as those tolerances were there, the rest of the gun can be loosey-goosey or tight as a drum. They'll work.

I have a 1911 I fit by hand from an unfinished Springfield frame and Caspian slide. I spent a whole day using oil, grit abrasive, and a big hammer to slowly fit the slide to the frame. It's tight as hell. And it works great.


Recoil springs need replaced. With good parts that's about it. My 38 Super Commander has about 20,000 rounds through it now. All it's needed are springs changed, just like oil in my car.


Go look at that 1911. If you have to do a transfer through a shop, have the shop look at it and offer an opinion. If you don't get a good feeling over it, pass.

Springfield, Smith & Wesson, and even Colt are putting out some really nice 1911s these days. You will find one of them that you'll like and will serve you well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Da Quote:

>2. WWI and WWII 1911s were reliable in large part because they were very loose and sloppy and would work then mud or dust got in them. But as a result they were also inaccurate.<

No. They were reliable because they were built to spec, and they were pretty accurate as delivered. Many would shoot into 3 inches at 50 yards with match-grade ammo...straight out of the box.

 

[xr1200]

Note it doesn't indicate on the work order that a match quality or better barrel was installed , it simply states that the barrel was replaced under waranty.

The guy probably bought it and it had a barrel issue and the guy sent it in and had the barrel replaced under waranty and had some additional work done.

Note what the guy had done is not worth $800, he may have paid that, but its not worth $800 for sights, barrel waranty work, grip safety etc.

The gun is probably worth the $600, just hope it shoots decent groups.

 

[500grains]

Townthomas, IMO the customized SA is not on par with a $1700 top tier 1911. It did not start with the same materials. No matter how much effort I put into my Chevy Nova it will never ride like a Mercedes 500 SEL. A $600 1911 was built with economics as the first priority. They have to cut corners. Also, polishing up parts that fit poorly can result in just having polished parts that fit poorly. There is a reason guys are willing to part with $1700 to $4000 for a Baer or a Wilson combat. Get what you want of course, just know what you are getting. If this is a plinking pistol I am sure the SA will do well for you.

 

[Clark]

500G,
You are an irritating person, but you made me remember that I have a 1911 from a gun show that I have not looked at in many years.

I just looked, and I still have it.
I once showed it to a gunsmith, and he started naming all the non stock parts and went on and on blah blah [I only remember Chip McCormick something].

I am going to try to remember to shoot that pistol this year.

 

[500grains]

Originally posted by "500G,
You are an irritating person, but you made me remember that I have a 1911 from a gun show that I have not looked at in many years."

C-

As far as I know, the ATF still has that undercover purchase marked in their records, so don't go thinking you can use that as a throwaway.

 

[harrygunner]

I hesitated before buying a 1911, having read some stuff on Internet. Bought a 1911 right after shooting one. Carry one for daily CCW, five years now.

I've learned to take Internet posts with 500 grains of salt.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

I always want to shoot a used gun if possible before I buy, in the least inspect it. A 1911 is a firearm that can be botched up pretty bad if someone doesn't know what their doing. A lot of people want to get after market parts then use a dremel to make the fit, oh so sad.

 

[500grains]

Carrying a gun in your pocket for 5 years does not mean that you are competent with it.

 

[wrench]

I've had a Springfield loaded for several years. It's an incredibly reliable pistol, basically never fails. Much more reliable than a friend's Kimber, and custom Colt.
I've shot all three of the above pistols, and if there's an accuracy difference, it would take a better shooter than me to notice.
Get the Loaded.