After The Fall Of Justice

Status
Not open for further replies.
If you ever wind up falsely accused, who are you going to trust, the government that's charging you, or your peers?

Depends on the situation and the people. There are some judges that I trust to be fair and decent people and there are some jurors that I wouldn't trust to pick out my socks. BTW, I believe that jury nullification, of the most part, is a good thing.

I'm sorry, WHAT?!? "The law has changed just a skosh since the times of Adams, Chase et al."?!? Did you just say that ON A PRO-2nd AMENDMANT SITE?!?!?!?!?

Sometimes the law changes for the better. For example, do we want to go back to the way it used to be when the BOR didn't apply to the states? OTOH, there is a bad side to this with the increasing number of things that are being called "interstate commerce."
 
What else do you need?

"...yet she is able only to put forth the idea of jury nullification as a solution? As a means to change bad laws..."

It seems to me that jury nullification should be the subject of a book AND a DVD so that it gets the widest circulation. There would probably have to be a chapter for each state. Don't know.

On the subject of getting out of jury duty--We had a case up here in FAR northern NY where a county court judge's wife did not get out of jury duty and the trial she sat on was run by her husband the judge.

Sounds like a stray episode from "All In The Family" or something. There was sure a lot of talk and letters to the editor, etc. on that one. But there was no legal problems with it, apparently. I can't remember the case, but the verdict stood.

The nice part of it was that people who knew nothing at all about the courts and juries were learning as they jabbered.

rr
 
"If you ever wind up falsely accused, who are you going to trust, the government that's charging you, or your peers? "

The judge hearing the case is seperate and distinct from the prosecuting attorney, who represents THE PEOPLE. One is judicial branch, the other executive. If you think judges just go along with whatever prosecutors want, well, they dont. And like many lawyers might recommend, if I am falsely accused darn straight I'll pick a bench trial. The judge is to be an impartial trier of fact and procedure, and if not it is instant grounds for appeal. Who knows what a jury'll do.
 
umm... who pays the judge's salary? Who does he work for again?

and.... ummm... who pays the prosecutor's salary?
 
centac sez, "The judge hearing the case is seperate and distinct from the prosecuting attorney, who represents THE PEOPLE. One is judicial branch, the other executive. If you think judges just go along with whatever prosecutors want, well, they dont."

I hope you don't think that's a 100% deal. Albeit minor, I've run into more than one instance where the judge specifically stated he'd believe the police or the prosecutor over the defendant.

"And like many lawyers might recommend, if I am falsely accused darn straight I'll pick a bench trial. The judge is to be an impartial trier of fact and procedure, and if not it is instant grounds for appeal."

The judge is supposed to be, true. No argument, there. But, if the judge isn't impartial, how can you guarantee to prove that or win the appeal? For instance, compare the 9th fed-dist in California with the 5th fed-dist in New Orleans on gun-related issues. Those appeals courts judges were once "small fry". Look up the history of California's Rose Byrd, for that matter.

I've been on two federal juries and two state juries. I think I have at least a modicum of knowledge about the entire process. I even "did time" as a witness in a murder trial, called upon by both the prosecution and by the defense. In none of those trials was there any issue in my mind of the appropriateness of the law.

But you may rest assured that I am one old man who has no hesitation whatsoever in quietly saying, "Not guilty," if I think a particular law is unjust or unconstitutional. Nothing in jury rules sez I gotta explain my position, either. Nada. Been there, know that.

And I have no fear of consequences, either. I saw four-star generals get all a-quiver during the Hungarian Crisis in 1957, afraid we'd be H-bombed. I've been basackards in a race car at 150+, and I've survived cancer. I just do what I think's right, same as always during my half-century of voting.

:), Art
 
"I hope you don't think that's a 100% deal."

I dont think there are any 100% deals whenever you deal with human behavior. But the system works more often than not. For every abnormal case anyone can cite there are plenty in which absolutely nothing extrajudical happened. No system of any sort runs at 100% efficiency.

Whether or not a law is just or not is not the decision of the defendant, heck, prisons are full of guys who will tell you that any given law is unjust. Ya wanna change the law, change the law. Thats what legislators are for. Juries are for evaluating the weight of evidence, not the weight of the law.

I think it was OW Holmes who told a lawyer once: "This is a court of law, not a court of justice"
 
"I think it was OW Holmes who told a lawyer once: "This is a court of law, not a court of justice""

Yeah, may well be, centac.

However, a few things come to mind. That symbol around courthouses and courtrooms, for one thing. You know, the blindfolded figure of Justice, with those scales? Why that symbol, if Holmes was correct?

So maybe the concept of "law" and "justice" run together. After all, the laws generally known as the "Speedy Trial Act", here and there around the country were justified as "Justice delayed is justice denied." Those specific words were used.

And isn't a large part of the Constitution speaking to the idea that laws shall be just? Isn't (wasn't) that a fundamental concept of the U.S. of A.?

As with the Bible, one can always quote somebody of importance to justify some position--and the comment often is taken out of context. I prefer to look at the totality of a system over a long period of time.

Art
 
Various books on Jury nullification can be found here, including the
comprehensive work by Clay Conrad, Jury Nullification: The Evolution of a
Doctrine, and several by Godfrey Lehman.

http://www.fija.org/prod01.htm

And here is an essay linking jury nullification to the right to keep and bear arms.

http://www.fija.org/Doig on Second Amendment.htm

FIJA and the Second Amendment

by Don Doig

We frequently hear the proposition that in the line of defense of our
liberties, first is the ballot box, then the soap box, then the jury box, and
finally, failing all else, the cartridge box.

The latter two really are the enforcement mechanisms for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

An informed jury can and should be the means by which the right to freedom of speech is defended, as in the case of John Peter Zenger. An informed jury could protect against improper search and seizure, secure free exercise of religion, the right peaceably to assemble, and freedom from excessive fines and cruel and unusual punishment. Trial by jury also protects all those rights not specifically enumerated, but covered by the Ninth Amendment.

An informed jury can also act to secure the right to keep and bear arms, by
protecting citizens against prosecutions which would deny that right. I have
read where there are something like 20,000 gun control laws on the books, all
or nearly all of which are arguably unconstitutional.

In many jurisdictions peaceful citizens who use firearms to defend themselves
against armed robbery, home invasions, carjackings or rape are prosecuted for
violating local or state gun control laws. In some cases they are expected to
run away or otherwise not resist, even in their own homes. Clearly these
prosecutions are ripe for the conscientious application of jury nullification
by fully informed jurors.

In other cases, gun owners face prosecution for owning various kinds of
prohibited, politically incorrect (yet certainly constitutionally protected)
firearms, even without having used them in self defense. People carrying
firearms for protection run afoul of various laws, and gun owners in some
locations are prosecuted for failing to register their guns. Business people
licensed as Federal Firearms License dealers are subject to constant
harassment, trumped-up charges, and prosecution for minor technical
violations of arcane and unconstitutional firearms laws and regulations. If
jurors believe that these laws are unconstitutional, if they believe these
laws clearly conflict with the Second Amendment, they have the power to
choose to acquit the defendant, and in so doing, defend the Constitution
itself.

In the course of the ATF's attack on the Branch Davidian church at Waco , four
agents were shot and killed. The jury, in a case that FIJA was involved in,
found the defendants "not guilty" of murder on the grounds of self-defense.
(The jurors did convict the defendants on what they thought were minor
charges, thinking the sentence would be minimal, but Judge Walter Smith
imposed the maximum, and several are still in prison. The jury forewoman
tried to get the sentences reduced.)

In another outrageous showcase of federal power run amok, the attack by
federal marshals on the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge in Idaho , which resulted
in the deaths of Sammy Weaver and Vicky Weaver, Kevin Harris was charged with
murder and several other federal felony counts for the death of a federal
agent. A jury found him not guilty on all counts. Randy Weaver was charged
with eight federal felony counts, and the jury found him not guilty on all
counts. He was acquitted on the charge which involved a sawed-off shotgun,
which had been the whole point of the fiasco in the first place. Weaver was
found guilty of failing to appear in court and of violating his bail
conditions.

A literature search turned up a few recent cases in which a prosecutor saw fit
to charge a gun owner with murder or something similar, but the jury saw it
as self defense. An article from the Fort Wayne , Indiana , News-Sentinel,
April 17, 2003 , reported that Shane Douglas shotgunned an assailant who had
threatened to shoot him for supposedly messin' with his girlfriend. There
was local controversy over the fact that the circumstances were not clear
cut, and Douglas was white and the deceased was black and it was an all-white
jury, but the News-Sentinel pointed out that the previous week, another
largely white jury acquitted a black defendant of aggravated battery and
manslaughter of a white man.

In another case the Delaware News Journal on April 26, reported that a
Wilmington man was acquitted by a jury of murder, attempted murder and two
weapons charges in the shooting death of his downstairs neighbor. He had
claimed self defense because the neighbor and his girlfriend had lunged at
him and he felt threatened.

And finally, according to Yahoo News on March 21, a Texas jury acquitted a man
whose assailant threatened to "carve up his face" because he resembled a
member of the band 'N Sync. Richard Brown shot Eric Acosta because he feared
Acosta had a knife when he made the threat. Great reason to threaten to cut
someone -- Acosta sounds like a candidate for the Darwin Awards.

Repeated failure of juries to convict under controversial and arguably
unconstitutional laws sends a powerful message to the legislature and to the
executive branch that the law is not being supported by the community.
Acquittals and hung juries are expensive and politically embarrassing to the
prosecutor, legislature, executive, and most judges (who are very often not
as neutral and impartial as the myth would have us believe). Never
underestimate the effect acquittals have on the system. Jury nullification is
the most effective and potent power the citizenry has within the political
and legal system, extending even to the level of the individual juror.

Of course, if a prospective juror gets removed during jury selection, that
juror is never going to be able to vote according to conscience, and will be
unable to provide the defendant with the kind of protection envisioned in the
right to trial by jury. It is a mistake to imagine that by mentioning jury
nullification in the process of getting yourself kicked out of the jury pool,
you are doing much good. Recognizing that the present broad latitude allowed
the prosecutor and other lawyers during voir dire is most certainly an
invasion of a person's privacy, you may not have much choice if they pin you
down, but try to avoid volunteering information of any kind. It?s none of
their business. In any case, what you say is up to you and your conscience.
Be alert for any suggestion of the possibility of reasonable doubt, and cling
to it tenaciously once in deliberations. It is very, very difficult for them
to prosecute a juror for being less than forthcoming during jury selection,
but they might be able to kick you off the jury in some jurisdictions, unless
you discuss reasonable doubts concerning the evidence, witnesses, or police
tactics. If you do that, then you can also discuss the power of the jury to
vote its conscience. It helps if you are not alone in your opposition to a
conviction.

It is up to local FIJA chapters and/or gun owners groups to spread the word in
local media regarding the power of the jury, and to work with the defendant
and the defense in discussing effective trial strategies. FIJA HQ sells
various materials, including Clay Conrad's handbook for jurors to help get
through the process of voir dire in criminal trials. There are specific
strategies which skillful attorneys can use to open up the possibility of
verdict according to conscience, which are discussed in FIJA's CLE
(Continuing Legal Education) seminars. See the Supply Shop at www.fija.org
for tapes and transcripts.

Several years ago, an imperial judge in California announced, with regard to
FIJA's work, "This is rebellion!" Ah, the pretensions of power. Talk about
thin skin! If jurors exercising their traditional, constitutional right to
vote their conscience constitutes rebellion, we should ask how preferable is
it to defend the Second Amendment peacefully, without resorting to the
necessity of invoking the Second itself in defense of the right to keep and
bear arms?
 
"If the system fails 1 time, that is 1 time too many. When the systems fails, someones life is ruined."

And your point is.....?

Identify one system of any sort, anything at all, that operates at 100% reliability. C'mon, just one. One measly example of 100% reliability. Just one..... Animal, vegetable or mineral........100% reliability......one teensy weeensy example. Ya wanna be first aboard the next space shuttle? How about going in for surgery? Ever kicked a pop machine? Pistol ever fail to feed, extract, eject or fire?

Can't do it, can ya? Aint no such critter. No matter how hard you huff and puff, it aint gonna happen. Heck, plenty of guilty people get aquitted, why are'nt you squealing about those travesties?

The goal is to have as few failures as possible, which in the judicial system takes the form of the appellate process. There are also mechanisms for redress when the system fails. The horrible government, with its near total immunity, pays out compensation regularly for persons who were screwed by the system.
 
I've got one

"Just one..... Animal, vegetable or mineral........100% reliability......one teensy weeensy example."

An example of a system that never failed: The Positive Control system that kept us from launching nuclear weapons inadvertently and getting humanity wiped out from about 1949 'til 1991 while we were staring down the USSR.

If that system had failed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

rr
 
One thing sometimes commented upon, thinking about centac's quite proper view of imperfection in our system, is that when some "imperfection" comes from Congress: Many times the only challenge which can be brought is AFTER breaking that law. "Legal standing to sue", etc.

So, two factors, with respect to possibly-unconstitutional gun laws exist. One is that the criminal penalties can be quite harsh, if you lose your appeal(s). The other is the cost to challenge the law, possibly all the way to SCOTUS.

Just sort of an additive point to ponder. To me, this is where a stubborn individual can make a difference...

Art
 
In Albany, New York, a juror refused to convict a defendant in a drug case, saying the law under which the defendant was charged was wrong. Instead of declaring a mistrial, as has been done in the past, the judge simply fired the juror and granted the rest of the jury the spurious power to convict 11-0.

:what:

What case was this?!? Sources?
 
Sorry to revive this thread after so long but I didn't have a chance to ask some questions while it was active. Somtimes I actually have to work for a living. :barf:

It is routine in our district, ND IL, ED, (Chicago), for the U.S.Atty to file a motion in limine just prior to trial requesting that the court order defense counsel to avoid any argument that might lead to jury nullification. This is routinely granted, even though it is a redundant request (our local rules of practice prohibit counsel from arguing for nullification.)

For our leagle beagle types: How is the history of nullification taught in law school? (I'm guessing Lysander Spooner isn't real popular with law perfessers.)

How do Judges square the precedents from the Supremes (and others) sited by others above with their instructions to the juries?

What would happen if a lawyer refused to accept the motion to avoid the nullification? Related question; how can the rules of practice prohibit something that has been advocated as part of common law since the Magna Carta?

When I see things like that I become convinced that the system IS rigged.



Jury trials occur in the minority of cases, and only upon defense motion.

My observation on this as a layman is that the state doesn't like the cost or uncertainty of a real trial so they do everything they can to discourage them. If you can blackmail a defendant into a plea it it so much cheaper and gives a better conviction rate to the prosecutor.
 
For our leagle beagle types: How is the history of nullification taught in law school?

It generally isn't. Some law schools, I hear, teach lots of legal theory (I think UVA is like that). Most, however, just teach you how to be the rat running thru the maze.
 
Having been excluded from sitting on a jury recently, I really think we should change the law (pass an Amendment?) that forces a purely random jury selection - a "jury of peers" and not a hand-picked jury of people with limited experiences and like viewpoints.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top