Ah, the irony... our favorite federal agency

[Old Dog]

This is gun-related because (presumably) every one of our members is a law-abiding citizen striving to buy (or sell) firearms legally. But what happens with the firearms seized by the agency responsible for enforcing federal firearms laws?

While following the spirited discussion after one of our members had a problem with a 4473 snafu, I noted the attached article. Entertaining to say the least. We had one of our resident FFL holders staunchly defending the federal agency and its right to pursue felony charges to a law-abiding citizen for "willfully lying" on a 4473 because the individual didn't catch the misspelling of his address on the form.

So, there's this:
https://reason.com/2022/10/31/atf-e...ousands-of-firearms-firearm-parts-to-thieves/

A snippet: "The DOJ Office of the Inspector General (OIG) undertook this audit following the discovery that thousands of firearms, firearm parts, and ammunition had been stolen from NFAD from 2016 to 2019."

So, for three years, the agency that enforces every petty and intrusive federal regulation regarding firearms (as well as alcohol, tobacco, and explosives) let its own security personnel ("a DHS contract security guard was convicted in connection with these thefts") pilfer its inventory"

So the government can go after citizens for typographical errors (and dealers for not catching the errors) which clearly are not made in attempts to deceive or otherwise illegally purchase a firearm, but when the government confiscates firearms, it cannot keep them secured. Hmm.

 

[Reinz]

Why shore, no reason to let good equipment rot sitting in lock up. Let the good ol’ boys make good use of it. After all, it’s not like THEY are criminals.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

This just reinforces my mantra: never confuse high ranking Govt employees with competent employees.

Most top Govt employees are there because of seniority, or political emplacement. Not because that employee is competent, or even suitable.

 

[General Geoff]

Corruption? In the ATF??

 

[SSN Vet]

If you want any industry or process to become totally screwed up, just put the government bureaucracy in charge of it.

 

[dogtown tom]

..........While following the spirited discussion after one of our members had a problem with a 4473 snafu, I noted the attached article. Entertaining to say the least. We had one of our resident FFL holders staunchly defending the federal agency and its right to pursue felony charges to a law-abiding citizen for "willfully lying" on a 4473 because the individual didn't catch the misspelling of his address on the form....

As far as I know, I'm the only FFL in that thread and I wrote no such thing.
I've reread that thread and there's not a single post by anyone defending ATF, much less "staunchly defending" ATF nor defending ATF's right to pursue felony charges for "willfully lying".

In short, you are full of baloney.

 

[dogtown tom]

...

So the government can go after citizens for typographical errors (and dealers for not catching the errors) which clearly are not made in attempts to deceive or otherwise illegally purchase a firearm, but when the government confiscates firearms, it cannot keep them secured. Hmm.

Welcome to 1968.

 

[Old Dog]

I've reread that thread and there's not a single post by anyone defending ATF, much less "staunchly defending" ATF nor defending ATF's right to pursue felony charges for "willfully lying".

Okay, reread the thread also, and your sixteen posts (some quite lengthy) in the three-page thread were not meant to defend the agency but simply, rather to deride and disparage the OP. Gotcha. My apologies for misinterpreting your intentions.

In short, you are full of baloney.

Ever thought about going into politics?

 

[Speedo66]

The only thing I can say in the ATF's favor is that the person charged was not an actual ATF employee, but a contract worker.

However, obviously, there should have been more oversight by the ATF. Three years is a long time to have been getting away with that, unnoticed.

 

[dogtown tom]

Okay, reread the thread also, and your sixteen posts (some quite lengthy) in the three-page thread were not meant to defend the agency but simply, rather to deride and disparage the OP.

If that's the conclusion you came to you didn't really read the thread.
The OP asked FFL's a question. I gave him an accurate explanation of the issues he was facing as well as the issues the dealer was facing. Quite simply, you ignored what I wrote about the dealer's failures (the willful violations) and have conflated "willfull violations" with what the OP did. And that sir is flat out wrong.

Gotcha. My apologies for misinterpreting your intentions.

Reading is hard.

Ever thought about going into politics?

No. It has nothing to do with anything Ive written and seems to be a pathetic attempt at a putdown. You posted derogatory, false allegations, wholly without any shred of truth whatsoever.

Shame on you.

 

[Seedy Character]

This just reinforces my mantra: never confuse high ranking Govt employees with competent employees.

Most top Govt employees are there because of seniority, or political emplacement. Not because that employee is competent, or even suitable.

From POtuS down

 

[CapnMac]

Well, West Virginia, where AFT has it's HQ, is where the Court struck down the defaced serial number = crime in a recent ruling.
Which might be a distraction in going to "the office."

 

[reddog81]

I would never have would have guessed the ATF or any of it's agents could do any wrong... LOL
https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-new...-agent-charged-with-stealing-wine-from-kroger
And he kept his job.

 

[dogtown tom]

Well, West Virginia, where AFT has it's HQ, is where the Court struck down the defaced serial number = crime in a recent ruling.
Which might be a distraction in going to "the office."

I doubt it was any more a distraction than a local police officer going to work in the same town where a judge/jury just found some dirtbag not guilty. But in this case it was only the defaced serial# charge that was dropped, dirtbag was convicted of being a felon in possession of a firearm.

Remember, its not the ATF prosecuting, but the US Attorneys Office for that district. The ATF employees in Martinsburg likely don't give a rats hiney.

 

[Mosin77]

I posted in that thread, I administer an FFL, and I also did not endorse ATF’s right to tyrannize. But I acknowledge that whether we all like it or not, the ATF interprets the law and makes the rules, and we’d better know them, understand them, and abide by them, because ATF has zero sense of humor, and there is no such thing as an easygoing auditor who says “it’s ok, we know what you meant, everyone makes minor paperwork mistakes.” What they say is more along the lines of “This form was incorrectly filled out, which is a willful violation, and constitutes incomplete record-keeping as required by the GCA of 1968.” Penalties can be very severe, up to and including loss of FFL or worse. I’ve only been through one audit, but as a fellow FFL put it “I had a colonoscopy the next day and that doctor wasn’t half as far up my a** as that ATF agent was.” Every 4473 form filled out in the last year is scrutinized line by line.

And yes, it’s deeply ironic that the agency who rakes a dealer over the coals because he has an inaccurate serial number logged on a rusty, 100 year old piece of junk, is incapable of noticing hundreds of thefts from its own inventory.

 

[Riomouse911]

From the inception, this is about as un THR a thread as I’ve ever read.

That being said, ask any private employer of many people anywhere in the US what the largest loss the business has annually and most will say employee theft, incompetence and damage.

Same for government.

You employ people, you’re going to get ripped off eventually.

Stay safe.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Most fast 'n furious? Agents adding to their own personal collection?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Corruption? In the ATF??



View attachment 1112362

OK...I'm gonna have to say that opening this thread up to this meme while in the middle of a huge yawn can result in sounds and actions which may attract the attention of others around you.



As for the subject of filling out paperwork incorrectly and potential consequences, to coin a technical bulletin title from a volume of the Naval Reactor's Technical Bulletin "Everything is important, but some things are really important".

While I don't agree, of course, that a simple error in filling out a Form 4473 should incur the wrath of the government in the form of a felony charge/conviction, the fact remains that a Form 4473 is a serious document and problems with it may have serious implications.


When it comes to filling out paperwork and forms, there are tons of them in our daily lives. There's paperwork for a driver's license, paperwork for school trips, paperwork for insurance claims, paperwork for building permits, paperwork for taxes, and an endless list of other examples.

How much attention and detail we put into various forms of paperwork is necessarily governed by the relative importance and complexity of it and the consequences of getting it wrong.

I assign a pretty low level of attention and concern to a letter from a teacher about my child's progress in school before I sign it. It's a simple, one page document informing me of my child's progress and perhaps a few other issues related to this. A quick scan to ensure there are no problems and to see if my child is making adequate progress and I'm done: Sign, date, return.

If I'm doing my taxes, however, I assign a different level of attention and concern. Error on my tax returns can cost me serious money and may, at the very least, result in my having to pay more money than I thought, or should. And if an error is found later, I may be liable for penalties as well. So before I put my final signature on it, I work diligently to ensure what I put in it is correct.

If I'm filling out a Form 4473, I'll also assign a level of attention and concern commensurate with the importance and potential consequences of getting the information wrong. It's not a huge document, and pretty much everything is clearly outlined on the document; so verifying everything is correct is not a difficult thing to do: I simply have to give it the attention to detail it requires to get it all 100% correct. This is not a document I want the government to find an excuse to badger me about.

Yes, people make mistakes. Yes, they should be recognized as that and treated accordingly. However, there are some things that I DON'T want to rely on the "good will" of the government for, and this is one of those things.

 

[Sniper66]

I posted in that thread, I administer an FFL, and I also did not endorse ATF’s right to tyrannize. But I acknowledge that whether we all like it or not, the ATF interprets the law and makes the rules, and we’d better know them, understand them, and abide by them, because ATF has zero sense of humor, and there is no such thing as an easygoing auditor who says “it’s ok, we know what you meant, everyone makes minor paperwork mistakes.” What they say is more along the lines of “This form was incorrectly filled out, which is a willful violation, and constitutes incomplete record-keeping as required by the GCA of 1968.” Penalties can be very severe, up to and including loss of FFL or worse. I’ve only been through one audit, but as a fellow FFL put it “I had a colonoscopy the next day and that doctor wasn’t half as far up my a** as that ATF agent was.” Every 4473 form filled out in the last year is scrutinized line by line.

And yes, it’s deeply ironic that the agency who rakes a dealer over the coals because he has an inaccurate serial number logged on a rusty, 100 year old piece of junk, is incapable of noticing hundreds of thefts from its own inventory.

Good post that shines a bright light on the ATF's priorities. It's about control and power. It's the "Do as I say, not as I do." Imagine what would happen if all of ATF was held responsible for it's own mistakes with the same fervor that they apply to us.

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, shucks, I was gonna stay away from it, but, gotta few extra minutes to hang out here.

If that's the conclusion you came to you didn't really read the thread.
The OP asked FFL's a question. I gave him an accurate explanation of the issues he was facing as well as the issues the dealer was facing. Quite simply, you ignored what I wrote about the dealer's failures (the willful violations) and have conflated "willfull violations" with what the OP did.

Yes, you did, and your explanation seemed fairly accurate. Yet, I doubt that I am alone by saying that it appeared you were supporting the agency.

Reading is hard.

Especially when one is unwilling to consider the words of others in context intended while dismissing everyone else's opinions.

No. It has nothing to do with anything Ive written and seems to be a pathetic attempt at a putdown. You posted derogatory, false allegations, wholly without any shred of truth whatsoever.

No allegations, trying to discern intent. In any event, it has everything to do with what you've written.

No attempt at a putdown, simply a judgment based on the contents of your posts in the other thread. I do appreciate you trying to inject facts into a contentious topic. Your experience, perspective and normally informative input as an FFL-holder is much appreciated on this board

However, it’s not always what you say, it’s how you say it. And in some of your posts, dripping with haughty condescension, the pomposity is exceeded by the patronizing tone. Things such as, “Your opinion doesn’t count,” “I’m pretty sure I comprehend better than you,” You’re full of boloney,” and “Reading is hard,” well, you’re talkin’ down to folk. Regardless of whether you’re the only subject matter expert in a thread, it matters how you talk to people.

Back on topic. Anytime we have members of an RKBA forum seriously bandying about the term "felony" in the same sentence in a thread about a law-abiding citizen mistakenly -- and innocently --transposing a couple letters in a street name on a government form he signed his name on, that seems to indicate a problem with the system. Especially if the responsible agency will hold citizens to the strict letter of the law (literally) while not holding itself and its own employees accountable for negligence or errors (and it wasn't simply bad record-keeping, it was more illegal guns on the streets -- in contravention of the agency's stated mission and current agenda.

 

[Armybrat]

Several years ago I did an FFL transfer at a prominent Austin gun shop which caters to law enforcement agencies.
Upon returning home with my purchase I scrutinized my receipt and the pistol a little closer and discovered that the serial numbers did not quite match. They were off by a couple of digits.
So I immediately called the shop and informed them of the error. They asked me to please come down and let them correct their mistake.
After their paperwork records (not the 4473 form) were rectified, the manager profusely thanked me.
I’m sure they might have otherwise run into a problem at the next ATF audit.

 

[dogtown tom]

Ah, shucks, I was gonna stay away from it, but, gotta few extra minutes to hang out here.Yes, you did, and your explanation seemed fairly accurate. Yet, I doubt that I am alone by saying that it appeared you were supporting the agency.

Which means either a lack of reading comprehension skills or just an inability to understand that an explanation of the law or regulation does not mean an agreement with the law or regulation. NOT ONCE did I express any agreement with an ATF regulation, give ATF an "attaboy" or any any shape, manner or form show any type of support for the agency. How you (or any other person) could come to such a conclusion has yet to be shown.

Especially when one is unwilling to consider the words of others in context intended while dismissing everyone else's opinions.
No allegations, trying to discern intent.

No allegations?
"one of our resident FFL holders staunchly defending the federal agency" is a pretty good allegation that occurred. It didn't. It was a lie.

In any event, it has everything to do with what you've written.

I'm always careful to note when its my opinion vs posting the applicable reference to ATF regulation. When someone posts nonsense, I'll point out why.
But my disagreement or your disagreement with what I post doesn't give you the opportunity to invent something out of thin air. And thats exactly what you did in this thread. You made a disparaging and in my opinion, defamatory remark that's not backed up by any facts. Not only have you failed to apologize, you've not taken the ten seconds to edit and remove your hogwash. That's shameful.

No attempt at a putdown, simply a judgment based on the contents of your posts in the other thread.

Nonsense. There is absolutely nothing I wrote in the 4473 thread that exhibits me or anyone else "supporting the agency". Flat out nothingness. Your comment about mein this thread is 100% false, a lie, factual incorrect and supported by zero evidence. You invented "one of our resident FFL holders staunchly defending the federal agency"..... for what reason only you know.

I do appreciate you trying to inject facts into a contentious topic. Your experience, perspective and normally informative input as an FFL-holder is much appreciated on this board

Really? What you wrote above doesn't seem to indicate much appreciation. In fact, accusing someone who is pro Second Amendment of supporting ATF is about the most despicable comment you could write. Why not throw in Commie, liberal or Nazi while you are at it.

However, it’s not always what you say, it’s how you say it. And in some of your posts, dripping with haughty condescension, the pomposity is exceeded by the patronizing tone. Things such as, “Your opinion doesn’t count,” “I’m pretty sure I comprehend better than you,” You’re full of boloney,” and “Reading is hard,” well, you’re talkin’ down to folk. Regardless of whether you’re the only subject matter expert in a thread, it matters how you talk to people.

If the shoe fits, wear it.
If my posts are out if line, mods would let me know. They didn't. If I seem condescending that is not my intention. NEVER have I claimed to be an expert on firearms law or ATF regs, but by golly I can find my way to atf.gov pretty quick. And being that the same damn questions appear almost weekly its a pretty quick copy/paste of the applicable regulation. It's so easy to find out for yourself, just read the instructions on the form.

So you find my tone a problem. And your response is to lie about what I wrote?

Back on topic. Anytime we have members of an RKBA forum seriously bandying about the term "felony" in the same sentence in a thread about a law-abiding citizen mistakenly -- and innocently --transposing a couple letters in a street name on a government form he signed his name on, that seems to indicate a problem with the system. Especially if the responsible agency will hold citizens to the strict letter of the law (literally) while not holding itself and its own employees accountable for negligence or errors (and it wasn't simply bad record-keeping, it was more illegal guns on the streets -- in contravention of the agency's stated mission and current agenda.

Well nonsense.
Just because you see a cop speeding doesn't mean you get to speed as well.
We bandied about the term "felony" because......it is a felony! Says so right on the damn form! If you don't like those mistakes being considered a violation of federal law, write your Congressman.

Sure, ATF failed in managing the guns in their care, it ain't the first time. That has zippity doo daa to do with AxisII REMAINING a law abiding citizen. He asked a question about federal law. He got the correct answers and procedures from myself and others. If he wants to remain a law aiding citizen, it was clearly explained how to do that.

If your point in starting this thread was to excuse violations of federal firearms law because ATF hired a contract security guard (not even an ATF employee) that turned out to be a thief....well that's silly. The IRS can violate the law, but we still gotta pay our income tax.
Should we expect our government to be perfect? Absolutely.
Should we expect disciplinary action when government employees violate the law, mismanage, steal or take advantage of the public trust? Absolutely.

 

[Old Dog]

I don't think I need to respond to most of this. If anyone is bored enough to be reading all the posts, they can draw their own conclusions and form their own opinions.

However, this one:

If your point in starting this thread was to excuse violations of federal firearms law because ATF hired a contract security guard (not even an ATF employee) that turned out to be a thief....well that's silly.

That was certainly not my point in starting the thread. I simply posted an article about a federal agency that points out the sheer irony of how government works sometimes, with information that every citizen should at least have the opportunity to learn.

 

[JohnKSa]

In short, you are full of baloney.

Sorry I didn't get it locked after this post was made. That would have been a good way to end this one.

There is no problem starting another thread about the ATF problems but leaving out the peripheral nonsense.