Aim or point and shoot?

Status
Not open for further replies.
What if you need to shoot in a darkened room against intruders where sight visibility is not viable? I want to keep my eyes on the target(s), especially in low light situations - this is where point shooting is applicable.
I rather train and do range drills with point shooting and not need it than not practice and need to point shoot.
The drills aren't exclusive.

If you train to bring you gun up and sight in on your target, the only thing that changes when you can't see your sights is...you don't see your sights.
You still present you gun the same way and still align your shoulders/arms the same way. You just don't have to look for the sights.

Now shooting from Retention (High, Low, Speedrock) is a whole other skill set...but that isn't what you were referencing
 
Something to consider is learning point and shoot. This does not use the sights at all. P&S is actually reported as the best option to be using for self defense. Because in many shootings a person is only pointing the gun and shooting rather than aiming anyway. If they take time to aim they could very well be to late getting a shot off and end up being dead. The eye and finger and brain work well together with training. Just imagine or wonder how shaky will your hand be during an adrenalin rush?
Paper don't move and paper doesn't fire back at you either. You can take all day aiming for target shooting but possibly not in a real life defense situation.
As we get older our eyesight sometimes starts to diminish. Even if a body is a blur or my sights are a blur I can still point center mass blur. I have decided to look into point and shoot.
I may be wrong but isn't a lot of cowboy shooting done by point and shoot.? Have any of you tried P&S and was able to do it quicker and accurately?


I have always called it instinct shooting. I started it with my slingshot, then my bow, and now with my hand guns. I have also found a small .22 in your pocket it a lot more useful
than a .45 laying at home.

Larry
Northern Minnesota
 
To the OP. Lots of good advice here. I'm in the "situation will dictate what you react to" camp. Sighted fire is more accurate. "Point shooting" can be "accurate enough" with practice. I've taught my daughter both. When she got very good at "sighted fire" I taught her "point shooting" though I prefer the term "instinctive fire"

This is what I used to teach her. Very good training aid for sighted & point shooting. We use our living room range. Teaches sight alignment, trigger control, point shooting, and "speed rock" out of a holster. I estimate this little thing saved me thousands of dollars in ammo.

The proof that it works is evident at every live range visit.

Great training aid. I can't recommend this highly enough.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...;pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=laser+light+bullet
 
It all depends on distance to target Everyone can point and shoot at 3 feet. I teach one needs to transition according to their ability. The more skilled you are the greater the range between the transition. The transition is: 1. Point 2. Point using nose point (Jim Cirillo technique) 3. Point using gun silhouette (another Jim Cirillo technique) 4. Flash sight picture (advocated by Jeff Cooper) 5. Sighted fire Everything past #1 means your're using more than your eye and shooting hand to align the gun with the target. The gun keeps coming up higher with each step. Its worked for those i've taught it to and were willing to practice.
 
The drills aren't exclusive. If you train to bring you gun up and sight in on your target, the only thing that changes when you can't see your sights is...you don't see your sights. You still present you gun the same way and still align your shoulders/arms the same way. You just don't have to look for the sights. Now shooting from Retention (High, Low, Speedrock) is a whole other skill set...but that isn't what you were referencing
 
To the OP. Lots of good advice here. I'm in the "situation will dictate what you react to" camp. Sighted fire is more accurate. "Point shooting" can be "accurate enough" with practice. I've taught my daughter both. When she got very good at "sighted fire" I taught her "point shooting" though I prefer the term "instinctive fire"

This is what I used to teach her. Very good training aid for sighted & point shooting. We use our living room range. Teaches sight alignment, trigger control, point shooting, and "speed rock" out of a holster. I estimate this little thing saved me thousands of dollars in ammo.

The proof that it works is evident at every live range visit.

Great training aid. I can't recommend this highly enough.


https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...;pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=laser+light+bullet
I use one of those as well. Its great for both practicing your draw and presentation as well as careful aimed dry fire.
 
Having the ability and being able to shoot (quickly) while using your pistol’s sights is VERY IMPORTANT!

I’ve had extensive experience with this type of shooting; and, quite frankly, I’m very good at it. I’m going to offer you several important observations about combat pistol shooting:

(1) If you don’t regularly practice, or haven’t been regularly practicing, point shooting, and aren't already possessed of well trained proprioceptive reflexes then my suggestion would be for you NOT to attempt to rely upon point shooting, successfully, the next time (the first time?) you ‘go up to bat ’.

(2) I’ve done this a great many times in a wide variety of different pistol competitions and practice sessions: IDPA, IPSC, PPC — Whatever! My experience and personal observations have been that at 3.5 yards' distance most pistoleros are able to point shoot successfully, and put all of their shots into a target’s -0/-1 zones.

(3) At 5 yards' distance those who can start to become separated from those who cannot. At 5 yards many shooters will either look, or start to look at their pistol sights.

(4) At 7-8 yards' distance very few, even well-practiced, pistol shooters will NOT look at their sights.

(5) At 10-12 yards' distance, I’d say, 85% to 90% of the people who shoot pistols are unable to point shoot successfully, and need to use their pistol sights.

Because your own emphasis seems to be on self-defense, I’m going to suggest you keep the following advice in mind: The closer you are to the target, then, the closer the target is going to be to you. (Profound, huh!) CONSEQUENTLY, the sooner you’re able to confidently move your gun hand, and the farther you are away from the target when you begin to make accurate hits, then, the greater your own chances of personal survival are going to be.

Trust me on this! You don’t want to be ‘duking it out’, toe-to-toe, while attempting to rely upon your unpracticed (or only infrequently practiced) point shooting skills. I’m an older man, too. If you think you need new glasses then, do what I do, and have your eyes checked once a year. If you’ve got cataracts or, maybe, ‘incipient cataracts’ then make arrangements to have them removed.

As I said: I’ve done a lot of this. You’re going to need to pay attention, stay alert, and don’t allow yourself to become snookered, or to walk into a possible CQB ambush. If you think you should draw sooner rather than later then, maybe, you should!

As for adrenalin rushes? I have friends and associates who’ve had them; and I’ve been able to study their reactions; but I, myself, have never experienced this phenomenon. Then again, my initial reaction has always been to fight rather than to flee; and, with over 40 years of martial arts training, I’ve learned how to fight with a perfectly ‘cold mind ’ and to shoot with what Israeli Mossad instructors are now calling ‘third eye aiming’ techniques.

(‘Third eye aiming’ is, kind ‘a like, what Americans think of as traditional point shooting, but, on steroids; and the only way you’re going to learn the technique is to, first, be aware that it exists and, then, to practice, practice, practice!) ;)
 
Last edited:
Either technique should be just a tool in your toolbox. Practice both and get proficient in both. Train as realistically as possible. Do what you need to when/if the time comes. Take some time to look at some 3 gun competition videos- even if you have no desire to 3 gun. You will see competitors doing what they have to do to make it happen in scenarios that someone else set up.
 
The old saying is "See what you need to see in order to hit what you need to hit." You need to see a lot more refined sight picture to get hits on something at 20 yards than at 2.

If you spend any time shooting the practical/action shooting games, you'll quickly figure this out.
 
We are not discussing precision A zone hits at 20-25 yards.

OP is talking about using point shooting at closer self-defense distances with diminishing eye sight for MOA of human body size target.
Something to consider is learning point and shoot. This does not use the sights at all. P&S is actually reported as the best option to be using for self defense.

As we get older our eyesight sometimes starts to diminish. Even if a body is a blur or my sights are a blur I can still point center mass blur. I have decided to look into point and shoot.
I taught point shooting to many shooters and one elderly man who had vision issues shot better point shooing at 5 yards than trying to use sights on his pistol. Instead of shotgun pattern, he produced tight 3" groups point shooting. He was all smiles when I placed several dots on target and he was able to point shoot each dot with 3" groups.
 
bds, I don't think what I posted is at odds with that. Different people mean different things with "point shooting," so that's always a tricky discussion, but I was agreeing that the kind of front-sight-hard-focus that is needed for longer shots is not a prerequisite for closer/easier shots for many shooters. I think everyone who is interested in fast-and-accurate shooting should experiment with target-focused shooting, and how far away they can use it effectively. I certainly use it a lot on sub 7-yard targets...
 
Yes I agree with you.

I reposted OP to remind us that point shooting is beneficial when vision diminish to where sights are difficult to use and I think that was the premise the OP started this thread with.
As we get older our eyesight sometimes starts to diminish. Even if a body is a blur or my sights are a blur I can still point center mass blur. I have decided to look into point and shoot.
 
Also, the red-dot technology is at a point where a SD-oriented shooter who has diminishing acuity may want to really look into getting one installed on the slide of a SD gun.
 
I carried a S&W Model 36 for a long time,,,
I will be the first to admit I wasn't very good with it.

Trying to sight a gun with that short a radius just didn't work for me.

So I started practicing point/instinctive/whatever shooting,,,
That was what got me to purchase a Model 34,,,
Practice with a .22 was more affordable.

But the point is that I finally just decided to ignore the sights completely,,,
I practiced from a stance where the gun was held low,,,
I practiced drawing from my holster,,,
But I practiced quite a lot.

I have adopted point shooting because I eventually got good enough to trust my skills,,,
I'm no Annie Oakley but I can put three in a 5-yard center mass pretty quickly.

My groups are only a little smaller with sights than without,,,
Maybe I could learn to do it quicker with sights if I practiced more,,,
But since I can do it without sights that's how I will continue to practice.

One expert says blah-blah-blah,,,
The next expert says yadda-yadda-yadda,,,
And a third expert will say yammer-yammer-yammer.

I have watched and listened to many experts,,,
I took what seemed correct and do what seems to work for me.

Lots of practice with my .22 gave me the speed and accuracy I feel I need.

Now if Ruger would just make a .22 version of the LCP,,, :p

Aarond

.
 
This is a subject that you'll learn more about in an hour on the range than a year on the internet arguing about it.

Give the different methods a try and let the target tell you what is working and what isn't.
 
Yep the thing is use whatever works for you. BUT like the old saying goes don't knock it till you have tried it and tried it again. I tried shooting point and shoot and the first time I didn't do to bad but the second time I couldn't even hit the paper. Go figure. But I have several 22 handguns and an M&P cloned air soft to practice with.

I have read articles that stated FBI agents and many police officers were taught P&S because in many situations it could be all that might save their lives. So I guess there must be some merit to P&S.
 
IMO, effective point shooting is a side-effect of practice using the sights. Sighted fire builds the muscle memory necessary to line up your muzzle with your intended target. So training with sights is also training for situations where you may either not see them clearly, or fail to acquire them in the heat of the moment.

The reason most people don't use their sights in actual encounters is that they don't practice enough. And if they don't practice enough then they'll suck even worse at point shooting than they would trying to acquire their sights.

Of the people who do train with sights but report not using them in actual encounters, I think it's quite possible that they did use them... they just don't remember doing so. Particularly in cases where they actually hit their target.

I personally don't believe in the usefulness of point-shooting as a discipline in and of itself. But as the Dude puts it, "That's, well, just like, my opinion, man".
 
So training with sights is also training for situations where you may either not see them clearly, or fail to acquire them in the heat of the moment.
This make a nice transition to an interesting shooting experience I've had. As background I mostly practice sighted fire with Point Shooting practice mostly related to shooting from Retention.

It was an IDPA stage with 7 targets and 4 No-shoot targets set up at ranges of 2' to 15'. Draw and fire on the start signal, 2 hits required on each target, so there was a mandatory reload during the CoF. The "kicker" was that the stage was shot completely "blind"...your head/face was covered by a beach towel.

It was very interesting to watch as folks tried to align their guns with where they "remembered" the to be...carefully taking just the "right" angle.

I won that stage beating the next closest shooter by over 20 seconds. I could have shot faster, but it wasn't until the second target that I realized there was no reason to take time to align the sights/gun when I couldn't see them anyway.

My brag is that I shoot better when I can't see the targets or sights
 
Last edited:
Nice!

Definitely illustrates why it's good to practice point shooting and not need it than not practice it and need it.

Besides, it freaks people out at the range when they find out I am shooting with my eyes closed and still hitting my targets. :D
 
At one time, I was good enough with a K-22 to roll cans at 30-40 feet firing double action from the hip or shoulder (not using the sights). Can it be done? It darned sure can, but given a choice and a distance over ten feet, I will use the sights if at all possible.

Jim
 
Regardless of where you intend to focus your eyesight, it's critical to fast shooting to develop a good "index." By which I mean that when you point the gun at the target the sights "come up" aligned automatically, and with them pointed where you're looking. Some amount of refinement may be needed, but the sights need to basically "be there" without any hunting or "circling" or gimbaling of the gun.

9mm's tale above shows what you can do once you have that kind of index developed. I've had some success working on index by setting up a dry fire target, positioning my feet to not face directly at it, and then closing my eyes. From there, draw to the target, and only then open my eyes. Again, the goal is to have the gun pointed at the target with the sights pre-aligned.

There are lots of other ways to work on index, but they are all WORK. Reps are essential. But it really pays off to have a decent index in terms of being able to shoot at any kind of decent speed.
 
If you really want to practice point shooting, or retention shooting, or whatever else close range unsighted shooting.... make sure you add in a good amount of force on force with it. Simunitions, Airsoft, whatever.

Being able to hit a stationary target at close range without your sights and being able to hit a moving target without your sights are two completely different things.

Me personally, in a contact scenario my main goal would be to create distance to give me enough room/time to get the gun up and into a flash sight picture.

I have more than a few friends and colleges who have been in gunfights with handguns. Outside of true contact ranges, the ones who actually aimed had a far far higher hit percentage.
 
Point shooting kinda works. At very close range. It works best at the range. Where the target is at a fixed range. And stationary. I've had people demonstrate their skill with point shooting and then asked them to shoot while moving. Or, use a running target. Or, demonstrate their point shooting while laying in their back.

Point shooting relies on everything being in about the same place every time you do it.

I'm of the mindset that you practice with the sights. Every time. Until the front sight comes up between your eye and the target. Every time. As time compresses and you need to get shots off quickly, you don't need a perfect sight picture. It's already there.

Had an instructor once tape up our sights to practice "point shooting".

I shot a perfect group.

He said I was cheating.

I asked him how I could possibly be cheating? He said I was bringing the gun all the way up. He told me to just point the gun and "look over" it.

I told him that was stupid. It takes no longer to raise the gun 8-9 inches and get hits. He told me I was being difficult.

At touching distance, rock the gun, get on the trigger. If there's enough distance, raise the gun and find the sight. If you have practiced well, the sight will be there for you.

If I'm getting into a shootout, I want it a 50 yards. Any neandrathal with a Lorcin can hit me at 5 feet. It's all about speed and who can get on the trigger faster. That, to me, defines point shooting. Throw the gun up and start firing.

Anything further than that, i'm on the gun, on the sights and getting hits.
 
I practice 2 types of shooting. Close and personal. 15 feet or less. That is what I believe is a reasonable distance SD. I can point and shoot, not from the hip but about mid chest level and keep all my shots in the 9 ring of a B-27 target. At 20 feet is opens up a little but still keep them in the 8 ring. Past that I use my sights.

I was told by a cop friend that the farther you get past 20 feet the closer you are to a possible manslaughter charge. True or not I hope I never have to find out.
 
I asked him how I could possibly be cheating? He said I was bringing the gun all the way up. He told me to just point the gun and "look over" it.

I told him that was stupid. It takes no longer to raise the gun 8-9 inches and get hits. He told me I was being difficult.
I remember that block of instruction at the academy...I think he learned it at an FBI training course.

He could instruct in what he had been taught, but couldn't explain why you wouldn't just bring the gun all the way up
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top