Open sights vs. visibility

[mikemyers]

Sorry, I don't know why it's even an issue. It depends entirely on the gun and its sight picture. You adapt your aiming technique to the gun's sights. You find what works for that particular gun and that's what you use. One isn't "right" and the other is "wrong". It is what it is.

That may be what you do, but for Bullseye Shooting, in most classes, you build (not buy) your gun, or have it built, and you use whatever sights you wish to use. For shooting a 1911 45, a lot of changes are typically made to the gun from "stock". A lot of people mount a rail on top, and use a red dot sight, but the top scoring records as of today were still recorded from guns with open sights.

I'm referring here to "bullseye shooting", or as I used to call it, "target shooting". I have no idea what people use for "action shooting" or "combat shooting". Eventually I'll find a good source to read up on that too.


Added later - if someone handed me a gun, and told me what to shoot, I would agree completely to what you wrote, and I quoted. For Bullseye shooting, most people buy and configure their guns properly for what they plan to do.

Having said that, most of my guns don't get modified at all. I just shoot them the way I bought them, but that's shooting for "fun/enjoyment", not "competition".

 

[wiscoaster]

... if someone handed me a gun, and told me what to shoot, I would agree completely to what you wrote, and I quoted. .....

.... and which applies to about 99% of gun owners, and which I why I said it the way I did ....

 

[Pat Riot]

@Electricmo
Where did you get the sights from your first photo?
I took the liberty of using that photo and modifying it so it’s easier to see on my iPhone.


I have been looking for sights like this for my revolvers.
Thank you

 

[PzGren]

I was a member of a pistol club in Germany that had one founding member competing in the Olympics and many that competed on international levels. I profited greatly from their instructions and recommendations, from equipment over training schedules, all the way to literature.

I carried the torch on for many years as the shooting coach and had always recommended the US Army Marksmanship Unit Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide to those that were fluent enough in English. The Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol is another great source of relevant information.

ATTAINING A MINIMUM ARC OF MOVEMENT (bullseyepistol.com)

 

[JTQ]

That may be what you do, but for Bullseye Shooting, in most classes, you build (not buy) your gun, or have it built, and you use whatever sights you wish to use.

If you can't see black sights on a black background, why not choose a different colored front sight that will contrast with the black background you are shooting?

 

[FL-NC]

Every shooting problem has 1 or more shooting solutions relevant to that problem.

 

[doubleh]

Back when the dinosaurs still roamed I had exactly no one to teach me how to shoot a pistol so I just shot them like I did my iron sighted rifle, put the front sight where I wanted to hit and adjusted the height of the sight for elevation at different distances. It seemed to work as I did in a bunch of prairiedogs , jackrabbits, and various other vermin over the years. I was hunter, not a target shooter. I still use that during my very rare hunting trips. On targets with black bullseyes I use the 6 o'clock hold because it works better for me. I especially like the sights with three dots because it is easier for me to see than the space on each side of the rear notch. I may not be "correct" but it's always worked for me so I am not changing. There is no harm in experimenting to see what works best for YOU.

 

[gyp_c2]

Long ago, I remember seeing a graduated front sight. Might have been for a 50yd and 100 yd hold.
Idea could be adapted for you tho. White stripe under a a gold bead maybe?

 

[Mizar]

Where did you get the sights from your first photo?

Those are a Browning HP Mk. III factory fixed sights - nothing to write home about...

 

[bullseye308]

A huge plus for me when buying a pistol or revolver is adjustable 3 dot sights, always has been. I’ll put a dab of white paint on the top of the front sight then put a black dot in the center of that. I adjust the sights so that where the black dot is, the bullet goes.

My Glock 17 has Tru-Glo TFO’s on it. Tritium and fiber optics so it shines Green Day or night. If they made these in adjustable I’d have them on everything I have.

My revolvers have stainless adjustable sights on them with white paint on the front sight and work well for me.

No matter what I’m shooting, I want the center of the front sight to be where the bullet goes and all mine are setup that way. Everyone that has shot any of mine have done well and I don’t think I have ever mentioned that they are dialed in for poa/poi and not a 6 o’clock hold. For most it really doesn’t matter as they are not proficient enough to shoot the difference. That is another point, can you shoot the difference at the range you are shooting? Unless it is for score or a life or death scenario, how much wiggle room can you tolerate, .5”, 1”, 1.5”? I prefer .5” if at all possible for myself as I know my guns, ammo, and my capabilities, even just shooting for fun. Others are content with 3-4” and happy so....

 

[shafter]

The six oclock hold can work well for target shooting, but is no longer taught for defensive shooting.

 

[mikemyers]

The following was written by CR10X in the Bullseye Forum. Those of you who are shooting Bullseye might find it useful. I know I did...


OPEN SIGHTS:
by CR10X

Why is sight alignment more important than sight picture? (OR Why should I ignore the target.) They are different ways of communicating the same concept. Here are four reasons why we need to see the sights better than the target.

(1) EVERYTHING that determines the impact point of a bullet happens AT THE GUN. The sights are on the gun, the target area is not. How will one know what's happening at the gun if they are looking at the target (with open sights).

[Aside: Dot sights are different due to the geometry of reflecting a dot onto a curved half-mirror lens to indicate alignment of the gun AND the expected point of impact. But the further away from the center of the lens (tube), the more there are issues with the alignment of the gun (which is also intertwined in the parallax issue). And also why most shooters reach a limit well below their potential using only dots when developing their shooting technique. They are seeing both the wobble and the misalignment and it’s hard to tell where each is coming from and contributing to the movement of the dot. They have trouble figuring out how to do Number 2 and deal with Number 3 since the dot is showing both the movement from misalignment and wobble as both are happening at the same time in their visual input. But that's another discussion.]

(2) ALIGNMENT of the sights (front and rear sights perfectly aligned) beats placement on the target area. Perfect alignment of the sights equals no angular displacement of the center of the bore relative to the target. Angular displacement equals BIG shot group. Do the math, its simple trigonometry. Check our how much 0.001 misalignment of the sights moves the impact of the bullet at 50 yards.

(3) WOBBLE (linear displacement) of the gun around the target area with perfect sight alignment only creates vertical or horizontal displacement equal to the amount movement. This means the distance from the center of the aiming area is only equal to the difference in the position of the gun relative to the target area. Wobble displacement equals SMALL group. (Unless you wobble more than 3.36 inches in any direction with perfect sight alignment, you will hit the 10 ring at 50 yards.

(4) AIMING AREA location is unimportant except that it needs to enable you keep in mind Number 1 in order to do Number 2 as perfectly as possible with the most consistent and least amount of Number 3. It does not matter where your aiming area center is on the target (sub-6, 6:00, center, NRA logo, corner of the target frame, etc., etc.). There are screws on the gun (adjustable sights) that will move the point of impact where you want it. Just have a consistent aiming area.

If you are looking at something out at the target area, then you can't determine if you have perfect sight alignment with open sights. And that is why BLACK front sights are the best. They will produce the "crisp" visual image so one can see the perfect outline of the front sight in the rear notch. Colors produce a more "fuzzy" edge for most people. And we are not just focusing on or seeing the front sight. We are seeing the crisp sharp top and side of the front sight relative to the rear sight notch so we can tell exactly where it is in the notch and keep it in the center. Nothing fuzzy about the front sight, something a little fuzzy about the rear sight notch, doesn't matter how fuzzy the target as long as you can tell which one is yours and can define your wobble area.

 

[JTQ]

With open sights, sometimes the front and rear sights and the "point of aim" blend together, so it's more difficult than usual to see the sight picture. For paper targets, one solution is to shoot "sub-6-o'clock" hold, so the sights are lined up against white paper, rather than a black bull.

For NRA Bullseye matches, it is required to shoot at the NRA targets all of which have black bullseyes.

And that is why BLACK front sights are the best.

You're going to have to pick something.

You want black front sights because they are the best. You shoot bullseye, that uses black targets. You can't see the black sights against the black targets.

Your choice. If you can't see the sights, you have to do something to allow you to see them. If you can't change the color of the targets, you'll probably need to change the color of the sights. It's a compromise, but then so is nearly everything in life.

 

[mikemyers]

You're going to have to pick something.

You want black front sights because they are the best. You shoot bullseye, that uses black targets. You can't see the black sights against the black targets.

Nope, I didn't write that. I copied it.
And at 15, 25, and 50 yards I certainly CAN see my sharp black sights in front of my blurry black target.
I expected that to be a problem, which is why I went to sub-6-o'clock hold years ago, but I'm now back to center-hold.

If someone else can't see the black sights over a black target, then center-hold is perhaps not the best option for them.
I think most people use sub-6 nowadays, but that's just a guess.

(Don't forget, for Bullseye, this is all done one-handed.)

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

As I've aged, my eyes have aged as well. I carry an anodized Colt 1991A1 and those sights are as anodized as the rest of the pistol. Aging eyes don't generally improve in vision, and anodized black sights in dim/low light conditions aren't the best.

I took to painting mine. Bright neon orange front blade, bright neon yellow rear sight. MUCH better.

 

[gyp_c2]

Contrast, contrast, contrast.

 

[mikemyers]

Everyone should select what works best for THEM, with their eyes, and the lighting conditions they're likely to encounter.

It wasn't written in Cecil's article, but the way I interpret the article, I don't really need to see "the front sight". I need to see two things, the gaps between front and rear sights, so that they're equal, and the tops of the front and rear sights so I can see they're level. I bought a spray can of "sight black" from Amazon, so the front sight is now a dull, flat black color, hopefully as black as had I used the carbon lamps people used to use for this purpose. For my eyes, and only for bullseye, all the fancy open sights I've seen are not as good as flat black when I want precision.

I suspect that for self protection, the most colorful, brightest front sight one can find might be the better choice - put that sight in front of what you're aiming at, and pull the trigger. But that's just a guess - I know nothing about self defense options - and I think my first choice would be a laser (which I bought long ago, but it's not legal for bullseye...).

 

[wiscoaster]

Everyone should select what works best for THEM, with their eyes, and the lighting conditions they're likely to encounter....

Well, I'll go for the first half of that, but lighting conditions are going to vary, and cannot be predicted, therefore selecting a sighting system and a sight picture based on lighting conditions is likely to be counter-productive in many situations.

 

[mikemyers]

With Bullseye, there is a lot going on, and not much time to waste on things that slow a person down. Seeing the sights clearly and precisely is absolutely necessary when shooting with open sights. This video shows what it can be like:

.......selecting a sighting system and a sight picture based on lighting conditions is likely to be counter-productive in many situations.

I agree, but I think we can select the "better" sight systems based on how the gun will be used - precision shooting, as shown in this video, action shooting, self defense, and so on. Based on what you just wrote, perhaps the "better" solution is a red dot sight? That's especially true for people whose eyesight is not perfect.

(Having written that, I don't think a red dot sight would be an appropriate option on a small gun such as my PPK were I to carry it for protection..... ....but I don't "carry", I'm too slow for action shooting, and too used to copying those people who are near the top of their preferred shooting sport.)

 

[wiscoaster]

.... Based on what you just wrote, perhaps the "better" solution is a red dot sight? That's especially true for people whose eyesight is not perfect....

I agree 100% - within limits wrt range & target size, of course.