Aiming for Center Of Mass

[Elkins45]

I’ve shot an awful lot of 150+ pound deer with well-placed heart/lung shots that traveled 30 or 40 yards before collapsing. Some ran fast, some merely strolled until they dropped. All of them left a horrifying amount of blood sprayed onto nearby trees or grass. Blood loss kills and it incapacitates, but it often doesn’t do this quickly. I’ve probably shot 60+ deer in my life and I can count on one hand the ones that dropped instantly with anything other than a head or neck shot. Keep in mind this is with rifles.This is only tangential but it is informative.

As far as center mass goes, that’s where I’ll put the first salvo. If I’m still in jeopardy I’ve tried to condition myself to switch to the pelvis for a couple in the hope it will at least put them on their face while the first shots have time to take effect. All of this assumes I don’t have a decent path to just run away, of course.

 

[Old Dog]

deleted

 

[BreechFace]

Close encounters like what you described; my SOP would be to engage my firearm as soon as it clears my holster at my waist or low rib cage whilst back pedaling (creating distance, getting off the ‘X’) and continue to fire shots 2, 3 and 4 as I bring my pistol to the proper shooting stance. This usually will likely cause hits to the pelvic and up through the chest cavity at which point I have my shooting stance I can make a CNS shot if need be.

A hit to the pelvic girdle and the biped assailant gets turned into a hobbling arterial bleeder and the subsequent shots should take care of any further cause for concern all things going correctly.

This technique should be trained for by CCW shooters. It is logical that this could be the very situation one might find themselves in. Hip shooting after clearing a holster can be very effective at close distances where bystanders are not a concern right around an assailant.

 

[luzyfuerza]

That gives us 2 seconds before contact. So the threat must be stopped by then.

One of the problems with the scenario you posed: while a threat running at 5 m/s might be able to cover 10 m in 2 seconds if moving in a straight line, the threat will have to change direction to reach you if you move. If you wait until he's reasonably close, he'll overrun your position. If you start to move while he's still several meters away, he'll have to slow down to change his direction of movement to reach your new position.

In either case, your movement gives you more than 2 seconds to put shots into your attacker's important body parts. And more time for those shots to take effect.

If you can move to cover or can put obstacles between you and your attacker, the time available to take additional shots and/or for your shots to take effect increases even more.


That being said, shooting at a moving target while the defender is also moving is very difficult. Making hits even on something as relatively large as the center chest area takes real practice.

Seeing, recognizing, and not shooting in the direction of non-threats that are in-line with a moving threat, especially as he passes by you, is nearly impossible.

I have done the same thing as Jeff:

I made a charging target using an old lawn mower deck for a base with a Tactical Ted target mounted on it. It was pulled by an old climbing rope routed through a pulley staked to the ground so the trainer pulling the target was out of the line of fire.

Anyone who fantasizes that they would aim for the head, the kneecap, the ankle, the pelvis, etc. of a charging attacker might want to give this a try. But only if you're willing to see your imagined course of action meet harsh reality.

 

[SterlingBullet]

There is a high level of experience and knowledge on this forum to learn from.

But speaking from the disadvantage point of the average Joe, my best hope is to aim for center mass, try to control muzzle rise, fire as many times as possible in those few seconds, and then run away as fast as I can.

Most of us average people with limited firearms skills would not cope very well with an assailant charging at us with a knife from only thirty feet away. I can say for certain that I will not be able to effectively place any head or pelvis shot, nor will I be to hit center mass running and shooting at the same time.

I certainly need to practice to vastly improve my drawing speed, but two seconds is not much time for my current skill level. You never stop trying to improve; I’m sure more comprehensive defensive training will help, but my own age and physical condition will limit the amount of improvement.

 

[CDW4ME]

I'll imagine one version of this scenario.
Mr. Pocket Carry is exhibiting supreme situational awareness walking toward his vehicle; however he can't see the assailant until the distance given in OP because of a tall vehicle or van. Mr. Pocket Carry is not walking with his hands in his pockets he is pushing a shopping cart.

Beep. (Imaginary buzzer) two seconds starts.
Mr. Pocket Carry now sees the assailant running toward him with a large knife in hand.
By the time his hand is on gun Mr. Pocket Carry is getting stabbed.

In before revisions, like actions other than trying to draw. I called it. Dibbs on that going like I specified.
Same scenario, someone carrying AIWB has a much better chance of getting off rounds before the assailant makes contact.

 

[wayneinFL]

I'll imagine one version of this scenario.
Mr. Pocket Carry is exhibiting supreme situational awareness walking toward his vehicle; however he can't see the assailant until the distance given in OP because of a tall vehicle or van. Mr. Pocket Carry is not walking with his hands in his pockets he is pushing a shopping cart.

Beep. (Imaginary buzzer) two seconds starts.
Mr. Pocket Carry now sees the assailant running toward him with a large knife in hand.
By the time his hand is on gun Mr. Pocket Carry is getting stabbed.

In before revisions, like actions other than trying to draw. I called it. Dibbs on that going like I specified.
Same scenario, someone carrying AIWB has a much better chance of getting off rounds before the assailant makes contact.

Why wouldn't Mr. Pocket Carry already have his gun in his hand when he's walking through the parking lot? That's the whole point of pocket carry.

And why would he walk so close to the cars?

 

[BreechFace]

Why wouldn't Mr. Pocket Carry already have his gun in his hand when he's walking through the parking lot? That's the whole point of pocket carry.

And why would he walk so close to the cars?

You push a shopping cart or handle groceries all with one hand and the other in your pocket?

And you walk through parking lots with one hand in your dominate pocket all times?

I get your sentiment of having situational awareness.

With hands full of grocery sacks dropping them and getting a access to my IWB firearm is going to go much better than a person who then needs to get one’s hand in their pocket and draw.

The only person who gets to decide when a criminal act is going to occur is the criminal.

 

[jeepnik]

Observation, while many train to aim center mass what really happens is quite different. When one is attacked aiming, even by “well trained” shooters goes right out the window. Take a look at hit to rounds fired ratios in actual shootings.

Now there are “experienced” shooters, but those who have been involved in enough shootings that they can overcome the reaction that cause the above reactions. But these shooters will loose the edge that experience brings over time and all but the best will revert to unaimed fire.

 

[Kleanbore]

Observation, while many train to aim center mass what really happens is quite different. When one is attacked aiming, even by “well trained” shooters goes right out the window. Take a look at hit to rounds fired ratios in actual shootings.

And center mass presents the largest target, and the least mobile one.

No, not every round hits its intended target.

 

[shafter]

The human body has timers and switches.

Timers are your circulatory and respiratory systems such as arteries and airways. These will kill but it takes time, anywhere from seconds to minutes.

Switches are connective tissue and the nervous system such as nerve bundles or tendons. These will incapacitate the entire body immediately like flipping a switch such as damage to the brain or spine, or may be isolated to just one limb.

Switches are ideal, but they're difficult to target, especially on a moving threat. That's why we generally train to shoot center of mass with the key word being generally.

 

[Elkins45]

I'll imagine one version of this scenario.
Mr. Pocket Carry is exhibiting supreme situational awareness walking toward his vehicle; however he can't see the assailant until the distance given in OP because of a tall vehicle or van. Mr. Pocket Carry is not walking with his hands in his pockets he is pushing a shopping cart.

Beep. (Imaginary buzzer) two seconds starts.
Mr. Pocket Carry now sees the assailant running toward him with a large knife in hand.
By the time his hand is on gun Mr. Pocket Carry is getting stabbed.

In before revisions, like actions other than trying to draw. I called it. Dibbs on that going like I specified.
Same scenario, someone carrying AIWB has a much better chance of getting off rounds before the assailant makes contact.

Wouldn’t the shopping cart make a fairly effective obstacle to a stabber?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Now the established doctrine is that a handgun bullet can only wound by crushing the tissue directly in front of it.

Your understanding of "established doctrine" is incorrect.

A handgun bullet, in a common combat caliber, can only be RELIED UPON to damage the tissues it comes into direct contact with.

It could cause more damage, but it depends on exact circumstances, which the shooter doesn't control and is therefore unreliable to depend upon.

Fackler identified a handful of factors in which the temporary cavity of a penetrating handgun bullet can cause more damage.

One of them is when the tissues involved are constrained, like intercostal tissues (the tissues between ribs). Intercostal tissues are short, connected to the ribs, and cannot stretch very far without tearing. Over the years I've encountered a lot of folks that post handgun hunting photos showing rib entrance wounds, on the exit side of the internal chest wall, that are larger in diameter than the bullet as "proof" that the temporary cavity of a handgun bullet causes greater permanent disruption than simply what the bullet comes into direct contact with.

The temporary cavity from a handgun bullet has the potential to damage (depending on exact circumstances):

• Soft tissues that do not tolerate being stretched
  • Brain, liver, pancreas, kidney, spleen
• Elastic soft tissues that are tightly bound
  • Unable to stretch far enough to absorb strain and tear/rupture
    • e.g., intercostal tissues
• Size of elastic soft tissues being stretched
  • e.g., individual muscles of the heart
• “Local anatomy”

Whereas resilient soft tissues can withstand the stretch of temporary cavity produced by handgun bullets with minimal damage:

• Lung, muscle, bowel, nerve, vessels

If we assume this is true and that no other phenomena are at play, all the bullets with do is cause tubular wounds approximately the diameter of the expanded bullet. In layman's terms, the bullets will just poke holes.

A penetrating handgun bullet has two different diameters: 1) its actual physical diameter, and 2) its "effective" diameter.

In elastic soft tissues, a handgun bullet's effective diameter is smaller than its physical diameter. This is because elastic soft tissues stretch and flow around the contours of the penetrating bullet. And as the bullet penetrates it slows, allowing elastic soft tissues more time to stretch and move out of the path of the oncoming bullet. As a result, the permanent cavity decreases in diameter the deeper the bullet penetrates. (The Winchester Black Talon-style bullet, with its sharp claws protruding outward, always has a larger effective diameter than other bullet designs because the claws cut resilient soft tissues that flow around the bullet.)

As for shooting a fast-advancing attacker, the tactic is to move laterally off the line of attack (side stepping) while shooting to stop him/her. This causes the attacker to run past the defender.

The aimpoint is the high upper torso, about armpit high on the attacker. This is where the specific vitals we're targeting are concentrated (heart, great vessels, and spine). Because both the defender is moving and the attacker is moving, this makes the attacker's head a challenging aimpoint to target, and bullets fired at the attacker are more likely to miss the head than the larger torso, and those errant bullets will continue flying until they hit something, hopefully not a person.

Yes, the heart and great vessels can be destroyed and the attacker can continue to attack. This is called post-fatal injury activity. John Lennon and Lee Harvey Oswald had their aortic arch destroyed. Lennon was able to walk into the lobby of his apartment building before he collapsed, whereas Oswald was quickly incapacitated.

On a frontal shot, the spinal column lies directly behind the heart and great vessels. Bullets that pass through these vital structures, or narrowly miss them can continue penetrating to hit the spine to disrupt the spinal cord (concussion of the spinal cord) and cause an advancing attacker to instantly collapse from flaccid paralysis.

The heart, great vessels, and spinal cord are all elastic soft tissues. These are the specific vital tissues we're trying to disrupt. Yes, there are other "vital" organs that are inelastic and can be damaged by the temporary cavity, but they do not hemorrhage in the same rate and quantity, especially if the attacker's sympathetic nervous system is activated, which decreases blood flow to these inelastic organs.

 

[shoobe01]

Lot of good responses to a slightly oddly stated query.

A few random thoughts:

• Don't vaguely aim for "center mass" but at something specific. Aim small miss small works.
• You do not have to stop the attacker before they get to you; disabling them so effects such as blood loss for VRI (very rapid incapacitation: loss of blood pressure resulting in unconsciousness in ~6-30 seconds) is fine. I'll fight a guy with a knife etc on me who will shortly pass out over one who will not, any day and twice on Sunday.
• Get out of the easy chair, try robots or other moving targets. Try force-on-force training. Even in the training environment with less stress or surprise than reality it is very hard to get good hits and boy does "hey you!" distance to contact get closed in a big hurry.
• Then, try it low light.
• Stepping offline is critical. This is like the tornado avoidance advice; you can't outrun so get out of the way. You surely cannot out run and defend so you go sideways. As stated, for confounding any charge and also to literally prevent them getting to you. Standing in an open parking lot? Why are you doing that, move to your car, move behind and around your car, etc. etc.
• Yes, shopping carts are great. Try moving one suddenly next time you are at the grocery store. Try moving one sideways to you. Lots of time, and tippy enough that if you catch one at a full run, you are gonna make a mess of the movement.
• And also move around and get in a better position, because you better be looking around and generally making plans to extricate yourself and reduce vulnerability from every azimuth. If you are truly to be subject to a melee weapon attack, there's a reduced chance (vs a firearms attack) that it is carried out by a lone actor. They have friends, cohorts, they may be armed and sneaking up behind or to the side. Do not get laser focused.
• 5 m/s is really fast. Near the peak speed a sprinter or fit person running from a leopard might get to. Won't be going that fast right away or likely when attacking as there's no way to slow down when they get to you. Only in movies or some football fields do people just utterly flying tackle anyone else.
• Most knife-distance attackers will not, in general, charge away madly. They will seek to slowly close the distance. See above for multiple assailants.
• So, this is a thought exercise, a worst-case scenario that lends itself to thinking of other contingencies as I've outlined, but is itself unlikely to occur on the already vanishly rare event you are subject to stranger crime generally.

 

[WrongHanded]

Your understanding of "established doctrine" is incorrect.

A handgun bullet, in a common combat caliber, can only be RELIED UPON to damage the tissues it comes into direct contact with.

It could cause more damage, but it depends on exact circumstances, which the shooter doesn't control and is therefore unreliable to depend upon.

Fackler identified a handful of factors in which the temporary cavity of a penetrating handgun bullet can cause more damage.

One of them is when the tissues involved are constrained, like intercostal tissues (the tissues between ribs). Intercostal tissues are short, connected to the ribs, and cannot stretch very far without tearing. Over the years I've encountered a lot of folks that post handgun hunting photos showing rib entrance wounds, on the exit side of the internal chest wall, that are larger in diameter than the bullet as "proof" that the temporary cavity of a handgun bullet causes greater permanent disruption than simply what the bullet comes into direct contact with.

The temporary cavity from a handgun bullet has the potential to damage (depending on exact circumstances):

• Soft tissues that do not tolerate being stretched
  • Brain, liver, pancreas, kidney, spleen
• Elastic soft tissues that are tightly bound
  • Unable to stretch far enough to absorb strain and tear/rupture
    • e.g., intercostal tissues
• Size of elastic soft tissues being stretched
  • e.g., individual muscles of the heart
• “Local anatomy”

Whereas resilient soft tissues can withstand the stretch of temporary cavity produced by handgun bullets with minimal damage:

• Lung, muscle, bowel, nerve, vessels

A penetrating handgun bullet has two different diameters: 1) its actual physical diameter, and 2) its "effective" diameter.

In elastic soft tissues, a handgun bullet's effective diameter is smaller than its physical diameter. This is because elastic soft tissues stretch and flow around the contours of the penetrating bullet. And as the bullet penetrates it slows, allowing elastic soft tissues more time to stretch and move out of the path of the oncoming bullet. As a result, the permanent cavity decreases in diameter the deeper the bullet penetrates. (The Winchester Black Talon-style bullet, with its sharp claws protruding outward, always has a larger effective diameter than other bullet designs because the claws cut resilient soft tissues that flow around the bullet.)

As for shooting a fast-advancing attacker, the tactic is to move laterally off the line of attack (side stepping) while shooting to stop him/her. This causes the attacker to run past the defender.

The aimpoint is the high upper torso, about armpit high on the attacker. This is where the specific vitals we're targeting are concentrated (heart, great vessels, and spine). Because both the defender is moving and the attacker is moving, this makes the attacker's head a challenging aimpoint to target, and bullets fired at the attacker are more likely to miss the head than the larger torso, and those errant bullets will continue flying until they hit something, hopefully not a person.

Yes, the heart and great vessels can be destroyed and the attacker can continue to attack. This is called post-fatal injury activity. John Lennon and Lee Harvey Oswald had their aortic arch destroyed. Lennon was able to walk into the lobby of his apartment building before he collapsed, whereas Oswald was quickly incapacitated.

On a frontal shot, the spinal column lies directly behind the heart and great vessels. Bullets that pass through these vital structures, or narrowly miss them can continue penetrating to hit the spine to disrupt the spinal cord (concussion of the spinal cord) and cause an advancing attacker to instantly collapse from flaccid paralysis.

The heart, great vessels, and spinal cord are all elastic soft tissues. These are the specific vital tissues we're trying to disrupt. Yes, there are other "vital" organs that are inelastic and can be damaged by the temporary cavity, but they do not hemorrhage in the same rate and quantity, especially if the attacker's sympathetic nervous system is activated, which decreases blood flow to these inelastic organs.

View attachment 1146598

What a wonderfully detailed explanation Shawn. 6 months or so ago, I remember you explaining the potential of handgun wounding very very differently.

Edited to ask: Lung tissue is somewhat elastic, but not (in my experience) as much so as some other tissues such as the heart and great vessels. In fact I have been able to rip and tear the freshly killed lungs of horses after piercing them first with a knife to allow access enough for several fingers. Though it did require serious effort.

As the lungs take up a large portion of the thoracic cavity, and also a major part of the cardio/pulmonary system, would you care to share your thoughts on where the lungs rank as far as elasticity and the potential for blood loss. They are after all very likely to be hit if shooting is directed at the thoracic cavity.

 

[oldschool45]

A couple of my thought about this.
A few years ago I got away from carying a clipped folding knife and went to traditional folders. I am going to change that because it gives me an additional tool in this kind of scenerio. Add to that we're going to look into more holistic training other than just using the gun. Sometimes a brick, streetsign or shopping cart, "exit stage left" may be a more advantageous tools.

Pocket carry- I use the Mantis system and have timed pocket draws against IWB carry. I've quit pocket carry except in a few limited circumstances. I was averaging 3.5 to 4 seconds to first shot with pocket carry in "optimal conditions" against under 2 seconds from IWB.

COM shots. I got to play with a use of force simulator a while back. From playing paintball my default is to go for headshots. I can make headshots on a moving target but at a time penalty whereas I can make COM shots almost as fast as I can decide to pull the trigger. That learning curve took about 4 presented targets. Also the officers I was "shooting" with were also halfway through a mag dump while I'm still trying to figure out ***.

Short of a "Bus" you are not going to stop a moving assaliant in under 2 seconds so you'd better be ready to go the distance.

One last thing that I will throw in here which I can't support directly. I'm hearing about some training changes based on Human Factors data that is going away from moving before engaging to making your first shot(s) count. I don't believe it means not to move off axis or use immediate cover. It also may be more relevant to LEO and body armor wearing crew than civilians out enjoying a stroll. The person relaying this's attitude was "yeah it goes against years of developed training but...the numbers don't lie"

 

[Kleanbore]

Don't vaguely aim for "center mass" but at something specific. Aim small miss small works.

How would one "aim for" something small;,the location of which is not known, while it is moving around rapidly?

5 m/s is really fast.

that is the average velocity that normally fit adults were found to be a able to run for a distance of seven yards, from a standing position. The distance was derived fom hat speed and from draw time averages--time to draw and fire one shot

 

[jmorris]

Yet the established doctrine is to shoot for the COM. Despite there being very little within it that if hit could cause an immediate physical stop. So why is this the recommended target?

I think it’s because a hit (any hit) is better than a complete miss and the furthest away you can get from a complete miss is by aiming at the center of something. The closer to the edge or smaller the area gets, the more likely it will be to not impact the target.

A miss from COM that impacts the pelvis or head will still be better than a miss to either side or above the head, for instance.

 

[wayneinFL]

You push a shopping cart or handle groceries all with one hand and the other in your pocket?

And you walk through parking lots with one hand in your dominate pocket all times?

I get your sentiment of having situational awareness.

With hands full of grocery sacks dropping them and getting a access to my IWB firearm is going to go much better than a person who then needs to get one’s hand in their pocket and draw.

The only person who gets to decide when a criminal act is going to occur is the criminal.

"You push a shopping cart or handle groceries all with one hand and the other in your pocket?"

I usually pull a shopping cart.

"And you walk through parking lots with one hand in your dominate pocket all times?"

Quite often. Especially at night or in a parking lot without a lot of people.

"With hands full of grocery sacks dropping them and getting a access to my IWB firearm is going to go much better than a person who then needs to get one’s hand in their pocket and draw."

You are right that it saves a half second or a second.

In the handful of situations in which I've seen an assault with a knife, I've only seen one in which I couldn't have drawn from a pocket in time. But I couldn't have drawn from waistband concealed in that amount of time. I didn't even register that there was a knife until the first guy was at arm's length, and the guy behind him with the knife was within about 6 feet of me. I didn't even see the guy with the knife leave the sidewalk, because I was focused on not getting knocked on my butt by the first guy.

A gun on my hip would have been faster, but that came so fast it wouldn't have mattered. I do agree there are some situations where shaving 1/2 second off your draw would make a difference. There are so many more situations where you should just run.

 

[Kleanbore]

In the handful of situations in which I've seen an assault with a knife, I've only seen...

With FoF exercises, one can run though a sufficiently large number of trials to allow meaningful conclusions.

 

[rubberduck]

thats why the police empty there gun on you to stop.the threat.

 

[Kleanbore]

thats why the police empty there gun on you to stop.the threat.

What is?

 

[dweis]

Your premise is flawed. Everyone knows that shooting COM at a charging attacker at that range has almost no possibility of stopping the attacker before he reaches you. That is why you move off of the line of contact. We teach shooting COM because that's where you are most likely to make hits under pressure. Shooting COM of what you can see of the target gives you the biggest area to aim at.

As you “move off the line of contact” the perp can adjust his line of attack. You have 3 second to divert so he will be on top of you before you can get far enough away from that “line” to avoid contact.

I learned a different method. You aim for the head, and when the assailant is about 5 feet away you fire with barrel aligned for a hit in the area shown in the red box on the photo below. Even a 22LR stop him. Just get lower than the skull to avoid failure. If you hit him in the mouth there is little to impede the bullet line travel which lead right to the spine in the neck. Get off as many rounds as you can.

We who carried pistols in Nam quickly learned that it was an effective way to stop a man charging you with a bayonet at close quarters. Other option is run away and hope you are faster than the attacker.

 

[Kleanbore]

I learned a different method. You aim for the head, and when the assailant is about 5 feet away you fire with barrel aligned for a hit in the area shown in the red box on the photo below

That would give him just over a quarter of a second to close; much of that target area misses the CNS; the small moving target is unlikely; the stop would not be instantaneous.

Even a 22LR stop him.

I doubt it.

 

[jmorris]

If that red box was about 15-20% the size above, I can show you where you can put .22’s on pigs and drop them in their tracks. That kind of placement is best done while they are standing still in a trap though. Not the shot I take on running ones in the field, even with better stuff than .22’s for killing.