AK-47 as a trail gun? bear gun?

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I doubt there's any mass-produced military rifle that has never malfunctioned. The 100% reliable automatic rifle has yet to be invented because it never will.

There's a difference between something that has recorded malfunctions and a "jamomatic". The Chauchat... that would be my definition of a jamomatic, though semantics can be subjective.
 
1. Fully automatic weapons are illegal to use on game in at least most states.

2. Seriously? And for the record, any time your weapon doesn't go bang, that's a malfunction. If tools are required to clear that malfunction, it's a jam.

Welcome to THR. You've already started a thread with "AK-47" and "bear" in the title. We're watching.

John
 
Personally, I'd rather carry my Winchester Trapper in .44 mag. With the right ammo in it, I wouldn't be afraid of anything in N. America. It'll handle much hotter loads than my revolver will. And any other people see you carrying an "evil AK-47" on a trail or in the woods, and they're going to assume you're up to no good. You'd be more likely to get called in as a nut with a gun with an AK than any other more "normal" looking rifle.

I understand the guys that own AK's seem to really like them, but it's just not a gun that I'm interested in owning. And there's no denying they have a reputation as the weapon of choice for "the bad guys", such as every Communist and Terrorist on the planet.

Average people WILL associate the AK with "bad guys", no matter how YOU feel about them. Especially the non-gunners you're likely to run into out hiking/camping/fishing in the woods. They'll see that curved magazine, and that's all it'll take.

They've seen curved magazines on TV in the hands of our enemies for many years. This = bad.

They've seen lever-action rifles in the hands of cowboys and John Wayne. This = good.
 
rondog said:
Personally, I'd rather carry my Winchester Trapper in .44 mag. With the right ammo in it, I wouldn't be afraid of anything in N. America. It'll handle much hotter loads than my revolver will. And any other people see you carrying an "evil AK-47" on a trail or in the woods, and they're going to assume you're up to no good. You'd be more likely to get called in as a nut with a gun with an AK than any other more "normal" looking rifle.

I understand the guys that own AK's seem to really like them, but it's just not a gun that I'm interested in owning. And there's no denying they have a reputation as the weapon of choice for "the bad guys", such as every Communist and Terrorist on the planet.

Average people WILL associate the AK with "bad guys", no matter how YOU feel about them. Especially the non-gunners you're likely to run into out hiking/camping/fishing in the woods. They'll see that curved magazine, and that's all it'll take.

They've seen curved magazines on TV in the hands of our enemies for many years. This = bad.

They've seen lever-action rifles in the hands of cowboys and John Wayne. This = good.
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I'm an AK fanatic. I agree with you.

The majority of leftists aren't going to see you strapped with one of the most historically important and globally encompassed firearm of ground breaking design in the AK variants. They're going to see a terrorist. Gun folk know better, but uneducated folk won't understand.

I also think your choice of firearm and caliber are a better choice for bears. While I'll stick to my AKs for SHTF or deer, or even SD over your Trapper...in bear country, my bet is that if we were attacked, you're carrying my carcass out.
 
AK, SKS, AR for bear defense. Wow, that it the latest craze on TFL and THR the last couple of months.

If you want a semi-auto for bear defense, go with the BAR with caliber of your choice over 30-06 as a minimum.

AK-47, no way, not for bear.
 
Geez, we've got another quoting what he's read, with apparently zero personal experience, on the subject of ARs.

Anyway, I thought that the subject of this thread was the use of an AK as a trail gun where it may be used in situations that may involve black bears.

To me, a trail gun is something that you have with you, just in case you need it. It has nothing to do with your primary reason for being on the trail and you have it for the same reasons that you are carrying a knife, compass, paracord, poncho and matches. You just want to be prepared, "just in case."

For me, an AK just doesn't fall into this category. I don't care how short you make it, it's still going to be big and bulky. This is why many carry big bore revolvers and/or lever guns. They are light and easy to pack around. Personally, an AR would be my last choice as a trail rifle as far as that goes.

I may be mistaken about this, but I also believe that there is a pretty big shortage of ammunition selection. I don't know what the situation is today, but my last experience with AKs was that AKs have a bore diameter of .311, as opposed to the .308 bore of American .308 rifles; so shooting the better ammunition out of an AK may be a "no go."
 
An AK-47 is fully automatic.

Just as a M4 is fully automatic/selective.

Just as a M16 is fully automatic/selective.

1 more time: an AK-47 is fully automatic. Further, most AK-pattern rifles are based on the AKM, not the AK-47.
 
Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family? This isnt AR15.com. We should be able to post our observations and experiences freely.

When I talk about AK or AR, I am talking about the semi-automatic versions and derivatives of sold here in the US.
 
I would have no problem taking along my 74 as a saddle rifle. It is light small and slim. I would probly just take one or two 10 round mags.

When I shot my deer with my 308 AK (Vepr which I customized) it was a great time and a good performer.

If I were in bear country, I would take my 16" Saiga 308 loaded hot and heavy. And it would be a very practical option for self defense.

Everyone needs to keep a more open mind of what you are talking about when you talk about AK's. There are some great hunting versions now. You get too closed minded you start to sound like J Zumbo.

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mailman said:
Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family? This isnt AR15.com. We should be able to post our observations and experiences freely.

When I talk about AK or AR, I am talking about the semi-automatic versions and derivatives of sold here in the US.
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I don't think it's so much that you posed an opinion, it's that you did so without having introduced yourself as a new member, And without any post history to go by, none of us have any knowledge of your experience, or if you're just flapping your jaws.

Calling the AR-15 (better Jshirley?) a jamomatics in your very first post was a bit of a bait. Same could be said had you called the AKM (just for you J!) a piece of crap. Then, we are on the subject of bears. We don't know what bears you fear, or why you would pose a question to us as to the usefulness of the AK-variant rifle for ANY bear period, and what relevance that has to another AK vs AR thread, but with bears thrown in.

Start off humble before stirring th pot.
 
I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family
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No, if you'd fully activated the troll alert, you wouldn't have been able to post #3, because you'd be gone already. You have, however, invoked 2 frequently "warmly debated" topics in one single thread. So tread lightly, or you can go ahead and fail the attitude check right now. Your choice. :)

MMM, you crack me up. :D

My personal opinion is that a sturdy 7.62x39mm semi-automatic makes a fine trail gun, as long as you're not in Big Bear country. If you are indeed in Alaska, or a northern state where the game could be of a size to stomp a Volkswagon (moose have been known to!) a slide-action 12 gauge loaded with slugs would be a much better choice. Or a carbine in any of the "handgun" cartridges that are more powerful than 7.62x39mm, such as .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W, to name just a few...

John
 
the common or casual sportsman can see a few more jams with AR's and get the idea that they are jam o matics. The reason is because a guy is buying cheap mags out of a box at the pawn shop, buying the cheapest ammo they can find and feeding it through a rifle never intended for military service. You will see jams.
 
2. Seriously? And for the record, any time your weapon doesn't go bang, that's a malfunction. If tools are required to clear that malfunction, it's a jam.
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transitive and intransitive verb stop something working: to cause a piece of machinery or equipment to stick or stop working, or to become stuck or stop working
"The photocopier jammed."

Another term for jam is stoppage

stoppage: an instance of something being blocked or prevented from functioning
"a paper jam in the printer"


A malfunction does make the gun stop working until it's cleared, thus being a jam.


1 more time: an AK-47 is fully automatic. Further, most AK-pattern rifles are based on the AKM, not the AK-47.
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That's just nitpicking in my opinion. Most people, including gun people, call 7.62x39 caliber AK rifles, AK 47s. I call my Tantal an AK 74.

As for the AR being a jammomatic, that's false. The AR is less reliable but it's not something that malfunctions all the time, only when it gets very dirty.
the common or casual sportsman can see a few more jams with AR's and get the idea that they are jam o matics. The reason is because a guy is buying cheap mags out of a box at the pawn shop, buying the cheapest ammo they can find and feeding it through a rifle never intended for military service. You will see jams.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfaDchth9Q&feature=plcp
Military issue mags, ammo, intended for military service. They have trouble when dirty. This is the truth. I don't have an AR yet but eventually I'll build the receiver that I have and then have an AR 15. It's a good gun.
 
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Oh come on now. I am a troll and deserve moderator attention because I post a valid criticism of the AR family?
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What is it that makes you believe that it is a valid criticism? Lots of guys visit THR because they are looking for good information. What you have posted is not good information and will mislead others that do not know better.
 
That's just nitpicking in my opinion
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Well, you're welcome to your opinion. I never hear anyone who knows anything about firearms call their AR-15 carbine "a M16". :)

Further, I never hear "gun people" call their MAK-90s (for example) "an AK-47". Maybe we hang out with different gun people.
John
 
I have been known to call them an AK, without the designation "47", which to me supplements info to those I'm talking to that I'm discussing a semi auto variant and the family as a whole, not the full auto rifle itself. But I see J's point. I don't go to the range to shoot my Smith and Wesson M-16. Non gun folks would be confused as hell if we called our rifles what they were patterned after, and the leftists do not need more ammo against us. That's why terms like "AK variant" and "M4 style carbine" make sense to us, and not " them".:banghead:

Back on "topic :rolleyes:". OP, what bears do you readily encounter, and what is the average size of this species in its range that overlaps your home turf? No one can tell you what rifle to legally carry for protection, but maybe some one here with more experience can give you insight on a better gun/cartridge combo for the species that frequent your hills and hollers.:)
 
RE: trolling

I know some guys who are not trolling boards who do truly believe the AR family to be unreliable. Granted they don't post two "classic" topics in one on there first post but maybe he is new to gun forums all together not just THR.



RE: AK for bear gun


If I was to keep rifles handy around the home it would be an AR and AK. The AR in the house for it's lower penetration through walls and faster follow up shots. In the house I'm expecting to defend against humans over animals.

My around the mountain property gun would be an AK with twenty rounds magazine. Good hunting ammo will do me just fine for any bear, coyote, or dog pack I run into and still do it's job if called on to handle a two legged threat. Granted a handgun will always be on me and the AK would be on the ATV or in the truck. In the Northeast Mountains of PA the bears are smaller, where not talking Alaskan bears here.

They would both be set up with a nice red dot to co-witness and sling. As it is all the roles a long gun is needed for around my house is handled with a 12 gauge pump action with a variety of shells. The rifles are reserved for hunting, plinking, practice drills and all out mayhem situations.



EDIT TO ADD: several choices for quality hunting ammo in 7.62x39 with multiples different bullet styles from Federal, Corbon, Barnes and there are others out there.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_99_125/products_id/6515

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...wershok-123gr-sp-ammo/cName/762x39-soft-point

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/s...edium=shoppingengine&utm_source=nextag&mc_id=

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...nter-125gr-jhp-ammo/cName/762x39-hollow-point

http://www.gandermountain.com/modpe...n&i=423029&r=view&aID=510P1B&cID=GSHOP_423029

http://stores.nextag.com/store/4857533/product/1085236284/Barnes-Bullets-31012-7
 
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The 7.62x39 has been used to kill brown bear, but it's not exactly the best choice. The one example I know of was a poaching incident and the fella went to jail for it. So certainly it can kill a brown bear. It can kill an elephant. But the bullet weight, sectional density, shape, and composition all make it a poor choice for big game--esp. for defense against attacking big game.

Very few with much knowledge of the contemporary AR platform would agree with your blanket condemnation of it. And in fact there are a number of AR uppers made for cartridges that could be viable against a brown bear. The biggest drawback, other than expense, is that by the time you rig your AR for such a round it's become heavy and cumbersome.

The M4 jams...
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Everything this side of a rolling block will jam. Certainly ALL semis jam. Including the vaunted AK-47. And none of them like to have a bunch of crud in the works. Put sand or mud into a garand or M1A? It jams too. At least the AR's have a dust cover.
 
Yeah, I call them "AK pattern". ('Cuz they are. ;))

I have a "PA rifle"- it's a Remington 7600 in .35 Whelen. A 7600 in .30-06 would be a fine choice for a general "truck gun" or quick protective rifle in most places in the US. I've seen plenty of used but good-shape 7600s and 760s in pawn shops over the years, sometimes at silly cheap prices.

If somebody wanted to carry an AK just because, well, that's their right. If somebody has an SKS, because they bought one when they could be had for $79, and that's all they have, well, okay. But if somebody is looking for a board full of folks to justify why they should buy an AK to carry around on the trail "for bear"...well, that's just silly. :D

John
 
this thread is all kinds of wrong.

If you want to start a new thread to talk about AKs for bears, I suppose that would be ok. Likewise, if you need help identifying MAK90 vs AK, or M16 vs AR15. And if you need assistance with your AR15 malfunctioning, you can open a thread about that.

But let's not do all those at once.
 
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