AK:5.45x39, a couple of questions

[The Deer Hunter]

First of all I want to let you guys know that I have just read like 4 threads on the bullet.

Now I for a while I was going to get an AR-15 upper receiver for my lower half, until I picked up an AK. I just like the feel of it. It feels a lot more solid, and the sound and feeling of pulling the bolt back and letting it go is just a great thing.

I looked at a couple different versions at a local gun shop They had a Saiga 7.62, WASR in 7.62, a Yugoslavian AK in 7.62 and what I believe is a polish AK in 5.45x39. I didn't like the WASR, it seems like for about $150-$200 I could get the Yugoslavian one. The stock was short and it didn't look like it was made very well. I liked the Saiga, but since I live in MA (the assault weapon ban carried over) if I use 30 rounders I can get in a lot of trouble. I can convert it to pistol grip, but once again I could get the Yugoslavian rifle for about the price of the Saiga and the new parts. I really liked the Yugoslavian rifle, the stock was long enough and it seemed to be put together much better than the WASR.

So in the case, there was an AK in 5.45x39. I think it was Polish. It has never been fired and it has the wood stock. It has about the same feel as the Yugoslavian rifle so I like the fit. I am just having trouble deciding whether or not to get the 5.45 chambering or the 7.62.

Now like 00buck said in one of the 5.45x39 threads, I'm going to be punching paper with this rifle. If I do need to shoot a person, they are going to go down regardless of the size of the bullet. What about deer? I have a hunting rifle in .30-06, but if I wanted to use my AK could 5.45 do the trick? I know the 7.62x39 has the same ballistics as the 30-30. What about availability? I have heard that it is only produced foreignly, if there is some sort of ban will I still be able to get ammunition? Also, I have heard it is much cheaper the 7.62, generally, from a store, how much do you pay? (price/denomination). I don't care how much it is online, I live in MA and would primarily buy locally.

Now one more thing. The Yugoslavian rifle in 7.62, with one 30 round magazine, costs a hair over $650. The AK in 5.45 costs $650. It includes 3 Bakelite magazines and 500 rounds of ammunition. Are either of these remotely good deals for a state that has had the assault weapons ban carried over?

Thanks for reading guys. I hope I made my questions specific enough (and long enough...) to keep things under control. If you have additional thoughts about the rifle, I wouldn't mind hearing about it.

 

[Saleen]

I like the 5.45 round, but you need to get all that you think you need for the service life of the rifle right now. It's cheap as hell compared to other calibers, but not produced domestically, and if import is cut off it will become increasingly more expensive and difficult to find in short order.

The 5.45 will do the trick on a small deer, but it wouldn't be my first choice and I wouldn't trust it out there too far either.


Saleen

 

[sharkhunter2018]

What Saleen said. Around here, a case of 5.45 is about $165, compared to x39 which is about 250ish. I have both, but I'm trying to get as much as possible for both.

 

[Saleen]

Oh, for the days of $119 shipped from Century Arms! I finally had to force myseelf to stop buying it when i got to a point that I figured my great-grandkids were taken care of......and my children are only 6 & 8.

The better part of this last year has been spent acquiring duplicate collections for both of them with representatives from most of the classic battle rifles and calibers. I wanted to do more, but time (and money) ran out on me.


Saleen

 

[The Deer Hunter]

The better part of this last year has been spent acquiring duplicate collections for both of them with representatives from most of the classic battle rifles and calibers. I wanted to do more, but time (and money) ran out on me.


Saleen

Haha sounds like the most us huh?

 

[RyanM]

Well, answering pretty much all your questions comes down to the availability of ammo. Former Warsaw pact milsurp used to be dirt cheap. It's still pretty cheap. $130 plus shipping for a spam can of 1080 rounds, from AIM (though they're out of stock).

The milsurp stuff uses a 52 or so grain steel cored bullet, which tumbles pretty quickly on impact, but doesn't fragment or do anything else. It's a squite bit better than 7.62x39mm steel cored FMJ, but far behind lead-cored 7.62x39mm FMJ, and way worse than 7.62x39mm softpoints. Honestly, I'd feel about as good about shooting a deer with 5.45mm as I would about using a .22 Hornet with FMJ ammo.

Wolf makes new manufacture 5.45x39mm, but it's not a whole heckuvalot cheaper than their new manufacture 7.62x39mm. $230 shipped for 1,000 rounds of 5.45mm from Ammoman, vs. $250 for the same quantity of 7.62x39mm from the same place. Wolf makes 60 and 70 gr FMJ, and 60 gr JHP. None of those perform even remotely on par with decent (or even cheap domestic) .223 JSP ammo. The other brands of 5.45mm are in the same boat.

Basically, 5.45mm is cheaper than .223 to the tune of about $30-40 difference per 1,000 rounds, but its terminal performance in animals and goblins is considerably worse. If you're just punching paper, nothing wrong with it (except for the fact that really accurate 5.45mm ammo just plain don't exist).

For "serious" purposes, however, I'd get a rifle in 7.62mm, and a case or two of Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP. Oh, wait, that's exactly what I did. The Military Classic JHP performs on par with domestic JSPs. Expands to about .65", with 80% or so weight retention, IIRC.

Oh, local availability, all I can say is good luck if you get a 5.45mm. Wal-Mart doesn't seem to stock it (though they do carry 7.62x39mm), and my local gun store only had about a half case worth of boxes of 5.45, compared to several dozen (at least) cases of 7.62x39mm.

 

[HorseSoldier]

So in the case, there was an AK in 5.45x39. I think it was Polish. It has never been fired and it has the wood stock. It has about the same feel as the Yugoslavian rifle so I like the fit. I am just having trouble deciding whether or not to get the 5.45 chambering or the 7.62.

Probably a Polish Tantal kit, though those have plastic furniture and a wire folding stock if they used the original parts. Don't know if MA law precludes that, but wood furniture might also indicate a sketchy builder/source of the rifle.

If I do need to shoot a person, they are going to go down regardless of the size of the bullet. What about deer?

5.45mm is a .22 caliber slightly slimmer than a .223/5.56, so first issue most places would be whether it's legal on deer where you live.

Second big issue would be that there's very little options in terms of bullet selection for 5.45mm, even compared to 7.62x39. There's a definite scarcity of good hunting bullets and such for 5.45mm.

 

[D.A.C.]

I went out shooting, practicing drills with a good friend of mine. We were shooting his Tantal and a Bulgarian style AK. We were having bullets tumbling into the paper at 15 feet. I believe we were shooting russian or bulgarian. I wasn't impressed, but it make traing ammo.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Hmm. It seems like the 5.45 has a lot of potential. The 7.62 is sounding like more practical right now, though.

 

[gvnwst]

If you want to hunt ANYTHING, the 7.62 is the way to go. 5.45 si too innaccurate to hit anything of small size, and bullet selection and size make i ta very bad choice for bigger game.

 

[buzz_knox]

5.45 si too innaccurate to hit anything of small size

Where are you getting this from? 5.45 is generally regarded as being far more accurate than the 7.62.

 

[Pilot]

Where are you getting this from? 5.45 is generally regarded as being far more accurate than the 7.62.

X2. I have AK's in both 7.62 and 5.45. My 5.45's are more accurate, have less recoil and right now, less expensive to shoot. My AK's in 5.45 approach my AR's in accuracy. Less recoil = less receiver flex.

 

[gvnwst]

Yes, i know. I ment things like varmints. I haven't been able to hit things that size at anything over 100yd. the 7.62x39 is also incapable of doing that also, in most guns. Both are capable of minute of deer accuracy, but only the 7.62 is a good choice for that.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Yes, i know. I ment things like varmints. I haven't been able to hit things that size at anything over 100yd. the 7.62x39 is also incapable of doing that also, in most guns. Both are capable of minute of deer accuracy, but only the 7.62 is a good choice for that.

Well considering a wood chuck is about 1/8th the size of the front sight post of most of my rifles at 100 yards, I'm not surprised. But I have a .22WMR for vermin. I just kind of want it to goof around with at the range, I'm not looking for precision.

I have to say, any rifle isn't legal to shoot deer with in my state (I go out of state). And most hunting in new england has a reasonable range of only 200 yards. I know there are instances where longer shots may be taken (like power lines, fields, etc) but for all practical purposes the majority of shooting lanes are 200 yard, where most shots that I have heard of average about 40 yards.

 

[gvnwst]

Then the 7.62 will suit yo fine. It has the edge of spitzer bullets over the 30-30 (now, though, hornady leverevolution) and so is capable fo taking deer at ranges inside 200yd, if you can hit the deer. Better sights or a scope may be in order.... (may not)

For plinking, the cheaper ammo and lower recoil of the 5.45 makes it a better round. For that purpouse only though. Also, there could be a ban of imported ammo, ending the supply of 5.45, while a few (very few) domestic companies make 7.62.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

What about deer?

For deer, I'd strongly suggest the 7.62x39 over the 5.45. I my opinon, a round like the 5.45 should only be used to take deer with neck shots, using expanding bullets. AKs generally don't have the required accuracy, and the 5.45 doesn't have the proper load selection.

Also, I have heard it is much cheaper the 7.62, generally, from a store, how much do you pay? (price/denomination). I don't care how much it is online, I live in MA and would primarily buy locally.

5.45 ammo is cheaper than 7.62, but only when you're talking about corrosive surplus. When you're talking new-production, they're around the same price. As for brick-and-morter availability, again, the 7.62 trumps the 5.45.

They had a Saiga 7.62, WASR in 7.62, a Yugoslavian AK in 7.62

I'd recommend either the Saiga --mine's on order-- or the Yugo. They're both very well-built. The main differences are two-fold: Firstly, the Yugo is built with the 1.6mm-thick receiver of the RPK squad automatic weapon, while the Saiga is built with the AKM-standard 1mm-thick receiver. The other main difference is that the Saiga's bore is chrome-lined, while the Yugo's is not.

 

[RyanM]

Also, there could be a ban of imported ammo, ending the supply of 5.45, while a few (very few) domestic companies make 7.62.

Winchester/Olin, Remington, Federal, Cor-Bon... all the major brands except Speer and Hornady. That's very few?

Oh, forgot to mention before, brass cased 5.45mm ammo doesn't exist, though I've heard of people forming cases out of some other caliber. So brass 7.62x39mm cases are easy enough to get for handloading, but 5.45mm needs some extra work.

 

[gvnwst]

Sorry, didn't know that so many people made it. Last time i checked it was about 3.

I asked the brass 5.45 question, and a person is using .222 rem brass, put through a RCBS 5.45 die, resized .224" bullets (to .221, the bullet dia of the 5.45) and a small poweder charge. it works for about 2-3 reloads.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

The other main difference is that the Saiga's bore is chrome-lined, while the Yugo's is not.

I'm not really concerned about that. As long as I keep it clean and oiled it will be fine. Whats the major advantage of the chrome bores anyways?

 

[Shade00]

If you're serious about using the 7.62x39 for deer hunting, I would suggest the Wolf 154gr (I think it's 150) softpoint or the excellent Corbon 150gr softpoint. Either one will give you performance almost equal to a 30-30. I wouldn't recommend any of the 123ish gr hollowpoints. Only the Corbon and Wolf softpoints are up to speed with the 30-30. No doubt some JHPs have been used to kill deer, but why use them? The Wolf softpoints are the same price as the HPs.

As for rifle choice, $650 for a 5.45x39 rifle with 3 bakelite mags and 500 rounds of ammo sounds like a pretty decent deal. Do you know who manufactured that rifle? Some of the Polish Tantals put together by Century were built with .223 barrels instead of 5.45 barrels, causing serious keyholing issues.

I am personally looking at getting a rifle in 5.45x39 - heck, I'm about to go ahead and buy some ammo for it even though I don't have the rifle yet. Even at $160ish a case for the surplus, it's still a super deal.

That said - I would also probably choose the Saiga over the Yugo. Yes, it'll take a little work to get it converted, but IMHO the Saiga is probably the best bang-for-the-buck in the AK world at the moment. Not much more than a WASR but a MUCH better build.

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

Chromed bores are more durable, mainly when harsh conditions, corrosive ammo, and high rates of fire are brought into the equation. I will say from experience, though, that a chromed bore is easier to clean.

The cool thing about the Saiga is that once you convert it, you can mount any furniture you want. I plan on mounting an M-4 type on mine (Magpul CTR), just for the adjustability.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I went out shooting, practicing drills with a good friend of mine. We were shooting his Tantal and a Bulgarian style AK. We were having bullets tumbling into the paper at 15 feet. I believe we were shooting russian or bulgarian. I wasn't impressed, but it make traing ammo.

Some of the Century built Tantals apparently use the wrong barrel twist and have big issues. On the other hand, I also went through an AK class with a guy with a nice 5.45mm AK SBR from a reputable manufacturer who was shooting Wolf 70 grain ammo and his rounds were keyholing at 25 meters. Issues went away when he switched to 53 grain mil-spec stuff.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

DAC:

I went out shooting, practicing drills with a good friend of mine. We were shooting his Tantal and a Bulgarian style AK. We were having bullets tumbling into the paper at 15 feet. I believe we were shooting russian or bulgarian. I wasn't impressed, but it make traing ammo.

Do you mean keyholing? This is bad.

 

[RyanM]

I'm not really concerned about that. As long as I keep it clean and oiled it will be fine. Whats the major advantage of the chrome bores anyways?

Chrome also has a little bit lower coefficient of friction, so cases may extract a little easier. Not that extraction is usually a problem on AKs.

Personally, non-chrome is a deal-breaker for me, on a zombie apocalypse preparation rifle.

 

[anymanusa]

you can buy 5.45x39 for $120/1080 rounds. I would NOT use it for deer, and it is illegal in many states to use a caliber that small (22 caliber) for deer. I have 4000+ rounds and a rifle (tantal) for plinking with it. Nice combo.