AK/AR Progression thread got me to thinking...

[JWarren]

As I mentioned on the thread, I spent a year's project working on an accurate AK with limited success. One thing that I felt that I could have done to improve the project was to rework the trigger better. I did a trigger job on it, but it was manual starting with a Tapco G2 Trigger. I feel that a better trigger would have shown improvements.

So here is the two-part question that I have for you guys to ponder...

The basic generalizations regarding ARs and AKs are that:

AR's are accurate but not reliable
AK's are reliable but not accurate.


From my experience, the truth on each of the above is not as extreme as we see. ARs are reasonably reliable and are accurate. AKs are reasonably accurate and are reliable.

But neither steal the strengh of the other.

So...


Here it goes:


1.) If you were to attempt to build a significantly more reliable and maintance forgiving AR, what would you do?

2. If you were to attempt to build a significantly more accurate and consistent AK, what would you do?


Please disclose if you think that any steps that you'd take may affect either the accuracy or the reliability of each platform respectively.

For instance...

One may say that a piston-driven AR would enhance its reliabilty. Some have asserted that this adversely affects its accuracy. Others say that they haven't seen a difference.

Or...

One may say add a Red Star Adjustable Trigger to an AK. Would this affect the AK's reliablilty? I don't know.



You see where I am going with this.


Please add your ideas or theories, and I'll add mine.



-- John

 

[Dumptruck]

Yeah this thread has brought up something I was thinking about awhile back. Many experts believe that the Sako RK95 is the best the AK design can produce. The gun is supposed to be unusually accurate for the design etc.

With that in mind, what makes the gun head and shoulders above the other AK designs in accuracy?

 

[gcrookston]

If you look at the progression of these families of rifles, you can draw the AK47 down to the Sig556. The problem with the AK doesn't lie so much in the weapon as with the 7.62x39 bullet. Not a spectacularly accurate round with ballistics barely equaling the 30-30 Winchester round. This was remedied with the AK74 and the 5.45, ballistacally on par with our 5.56.

I like the 7.62x39 because it is cheap. Beyond that, I've not much to say for the round. I've never killed anything with it, and don't intend to.

The AR gets a bad rap about reliability. BS, I say. My son and my brother have carried these weapons and bet their lives on them and won. I hate the AR, myself, but only because everyone seems to have them and they get tacticooled out the butt...

I've owned both types of weapons off and on for 30 years. Until recently, I'd never had a failure in 10's of thousands of round (I currently have an issue with a bushmaster, which is being remedied by the factory -- a fluke, a defective chamber -- pitty, other than choking every 50'th round or so, it's a tack driver).

 

[gcrookston]

And yes, those AKs are not AK47s. The black one is an AK107 and the wood stocked one is an AK84

 

[Deer Hunter]

I do not like comparing a 7.62x39 AK to a 5.56 AR. Many times that's what I see compared. The AK may be a WASR, Yugo, or Maadi, but I always thought that it would be easier to compare a .223 AK to a .223 AR.

And to be honest, I've done a little of both. When I first bought my Saiga I figured I would never be as accurate as the gun is capable of. However I decided to put a 4x POSP scop on it, just to make it more versatile, since I could use the irons or the scope. I have been very impressed with the accuracy I have gotten from the platform. The design does not lend itself to be extremely accurate, but I feel that a good barrel and the correct ammunition go a long way.

When I was building my first AR the last thing I wanted was an unreliable range-toy. I picked the parts according to the research I had done: M4 cuts in the upper as well as barrel, mid-length gas system, chrome-lined barrel, etc. Once put together it seemed solid enough. I have yet to have a reliability issue and all I've ever shot out of it is cheap steel-cased ammo.

So in the end I have been impressed with the accuracy you can squeeze from an AK and the reliability of a well-built AR. My go-to gun is the AK simply because I am more comfortable with it and I only have one magazine for the AR. I wouldn't feel undergunned with either, though.

We'll see what the AK can do with match loads.

Edit:

The Trigger on my AK is lighter than the trigger on my AR. The AR's trigger, however, is slightly crisper.

 

[gcrookston]

Deer Hunter: The closest I got to compairing the AK and AR platforms on reasonably level ground was with my CMMG Mod4 and my AK84, both are 5.56, both are carbines, both shoot very well. Neither malfunction, and both are smacking their targets out to 300 metres very well.

I've been wanting to put a scope on the AK107, but haven't found one yet...

 

[trbon8r]

I've heard it said that the 7.62X39 is not an accurate round. I'm not so convinced of the mechanical inaccuracy of the round. Instead I think the problem is that most people are using Wolf or other Comblock ammo as their basis for comparison for the overall accuracy of the cartridge itself.

I admittedly have zero experience with an AR chambered in 7.62X39, however I am willing to bet that a 7.62X39 AR and a .223 AR are pretty close for accuracy if we were to assume the same quality of ammo or handloads were being used. In other words, the AKs reputation for poor accuracy has much to do with its design, but also much to do with the quality of the ammunition that most folks are using. It wouldn't surprise me to see the .223 have a slight edge in mechanical accuracy, but I don't think the difference would be all that much.

As far as building a "more reliable" AR, I don't think there is much that needs to be done besides making sure you buy a Colt or other brand made with Mil Spec components. Alternatively, you can buy Stag rifles (as I have), and realize you may need to spend a couple extra bucks to bring it closer to Mil Spec, if you want the utmost in reliability. For some extra insurance I had my Stag bolt carriers restaked properly, and had the Crane bolt upgrade done to them. I also have a spare MP inspected bolt I can drop in if need be.

When it comes to building a more accurate AK, I don't know. My guess is, by design each gun varies so much by tolerances, you never know if you will get lucky and get a good one, an exceptional one, or like the majority of folks get a mediocre or poor example.

 

[JWarren]

Ash has some interesting ideas on the AK platform. I hope that he comes here and put his input to this thread.

As for me, I think that the following would assist the AK in accuracy:


- Crisp Trigger.
- Insuring that barrel/front trunnion alighnment is good.
- Use optics or good iron sights.
- POSSIBLY a milled receiver would help.
- Quality Match or Handloaded ammuntion.
- Semi-Free-Float on Barrel-- nothing you can do with the gas tube, but I think that forearm pressure can be reduced.
- Good Lenth-of-Pull on stock. I shot better with a NATO length.


For a MORE reliable AR, I am still thinking about that.


-- John

 

[nalioth]

And yes, those AKs are not AK47s. The black one is an AK107 and the wood stocked one is an AK84

Can you pretty please take some pictures of the reciprocating recoil reducer on your AK-107 and show them to us?

Thanks

 

[Z-Michigan]

More reliable AR:
-chrome all action parts (already common)
-lube with FP-10 (personal experience)
-get away from having bolt carrier slide on inside of receiver - instead have it slide on one or two round steel rods, like the AR-18
-skip the existing 7-lug bolt and go to a 3 or 4 lug design
-increase bolt carrier mass (also seen in AR-18)
-replace conventional 3-piece gas rings with Mcfarland one-piece gas ring

More accurate AK:
-match grade barrel
-stiffer receiver, preferably forged
-carefully match bolt lugs to locking recesses (like you would on a bolt-action)
-change from separate receiver/trunion design to one integrated piece, preferably a forging, that has both those functions and a built in scope mount (rail) directly atop the trunion area
-match grade trigger

 

[stubbicatt]

For those who decry the accuracy of the AK, give the PSL a whirl. Shoot some 7N1 ammo through it, and take your time. I think you will be surprised at what an AK can do, accuracy wise.

 

[Onmilo]

I believe JWarren and Z-Michigan got it right.
A milled receiver
A fitted bolt carrier.
A heavier, longer, RPK type barrel assembly
Aligned trunnion.
Solid gas tube made intregal to the gas block.
Eliminate the upper handguard.
Use a semi free float lower handguard similar to what is used on the Saiga rifles.
A solid optic platform machined intregal with the receiver using a rear hinged access door for cleaning and field strip that eliminates the top cover.
This would make for an even stiffer receiver and would also allows an apeture type rear iron sight to be fitted along with allowing for greater structural integrity for mounting optics verses the side rail mount.
Caliber 6mm PPC or better yet, 6.5 Grendel verses 7.62X39 or 5.45X39 which were never designed to produce match grade accuracy.

 

[H2O MAN]

I modernized one of my 7.62 AKs just a bit and find it to be very accurate.
I now have no reason to own an AR and no reason to alter my AK any further.

 

[MIL-DOT]

I thought the Finns and the Israelis had already pretty much dialed in the AK thing with the Valmet and the Galil, at least as well as could be expected without major reworking.

 

[lathedog]

I'll start with your #2 question regarding the AK:

I think what I consider to be accuracy (mechanical or practical/useful accuracy) diminishing features of the AK are the short barrel, short sight radius, open rear sight far from the eye, and the cartridge.

I think a solid rear peep close to the eye, especially with click adjustable adjustments, would help with practical accuracy.

Looking at cartridges with inherent potential to be accurate, they typically look different than cartridges that are designed for reliability. A more accurate cartridge would probably have less case taper and a sharper angle on the shoulder. Look at the 6.5 grendel and all the PPC cartridges.

I'm not sure what sort of bullet selection there is in .311 for great accuracy. I don't recall ever being able to buy any myself. Selecting a new cartridge that allows use of .264 or .308 bullets (for example) would help.

I would build my accurate AK with a custom barrel from a high end maker. I don't know much about AK barrel manufacture, but I suspect they are made with an eye to speed of manufacture rather than precision.

I suppose you could look into the same accuracy improvements that are in any good gunsmithing book: bedding of action, barrel resonance and contact points, lapping the bolt lugs, tight chamber dimensions, etc.

Someone mentioned trigger work, and I concur that the trigger pack could use some help.

All these modifications would either add cost or reduce reliability. An individual user could spend the money to accomplish most of this through custom work.

I'm not sure how much accuracy is eaten away by the gas piston design. There is a lot of metal moving up there, and I'm not sure how to isolate it. This is one area where tweaks and replacement with similar but better parts might be difficult. Maybe its not a big deal. I would focus first on a custom heavy barrel that extends past the gas port housing far enough that barrel whip is not so closely linked with the cycling of the action. Maybe a BOSS type tunable weight would help.

Sounds like a good project. I wonder if someone out there has already gone down this road. I know Valmet and others have made very high quality AK's with better barrels, but I have never had the pleasure of owning one.

Ruger went through a bunch of accuracy improvements on the new mini-14. There have been a couple of good (but not great) articles on what they did. I think they added a BOSS to a special version to really allow a meticulous owner to dial it in.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem with the AK sights?

The ideal for an AK would be something like a milled AK in 5.45x39. You'd get the lighter round with a heavier gun. Does anyone have experience with a VEPR in one of the lighter rounds (5.45 or 5.56)? That's a thicker receiver (RPK).

 

[Deer Hunter]

I grew up shooting an SKS. I'm very used to those sights as well as the sights on the AK. When I first handled an AR-15, I was impressed by the sights and could see that they were better suited for longer-range shooting.

However, if someone who has shot an AR all their life picks up an AK and shoots horribly with it, it's not the "lousy sights" or the "commie POS gun", they just arn't use to it.