Here is the deal: I would like to have an Arsenal underfolder AK in 7.62X39, but they are $1300+. I was wondering if I should buy either a sidefolder or fixed stock Arsenal since they cost $200 less and also come with a rail for mounting optics. I have found a used underfolding stock for $50. Would I be able to then replace the fixed or folding stock with the $50 underfolding stock? I didn't know if Arsenals are compatible with all AK accessories or not. Thanks.
AK Dilemma
- Thread starter marineman
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Evil Monkey
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Unless you REALLY like AK's, for more than $1,000, it's wise to look at different platforms.
nalioth
Member
You'd be better off buying a fixed stock rifle if you are planning on installing an underfolder on it.
To go from a side folder to underfolder will require the rear of the receiver be welded up and then milled out for the underfolder trunnion.
After all is said and done, it is probably gonna be cheaper to buy the underfolder in the first place.
To go from a side folder to underfolder will require the rear of the receiver be welded up and then milled out for the underfolder trunnion.
After all is said and done, it is probably gonna be cheaper to buy the underfolder in the first place.
I'm kinda with you on that.
I've owned 3 AK pattern rifles-- one of which was a Polish Vector Underfolder.
The underfolding stock never bothered me to shoot it, but one thing annoyed me...
The thing got kinda loose in an up and down motion. I did a lot of searching and there is really no good way to fix that. The underfolding design looks VERY cool, but there are flaws in the design.
I'd go side-folding if I had to have a folder on an AK.
and I simply would not pay $1,000 for an AK-- unless it was a Tromix Saiga 12 conversion.
-- John
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Thin Black Line
Member
If some of the craziness subsides early next year and some credit card bills
start coming due, keep your eye on the used racks. You might see an
affordable UF come in.
If you chose to convert a fixed stock, as has been said here already, do
not change it to a UF. Get the ACE side folder instead.
start coming due, keep your eye on the used racks. You might see an
affordable UF come in.
If you chose to convert a fixed stock, as has been said here already, do
not change it to a UF. Get the ACE side folder instead.
I am looking at Arsenal simply because I have heard nothing but good things about the Arsenal AKs. I am really leaning towards just getting an ACE skeleton folding stock instead of an underfolder. In the case that I decide to do this, is the ACE skeleton folding stock compatible with an Arsenal fixed stock AK? Can I mount this http://riflestocks.com/catalog/prod...d=352&osCsid=654b231d22885d743f3e90fffb56e5d8 onto this http://www.impactguns.com/store/SAM7A1R.html ? Also, will standard AK mags work in Arsenal AKs? Lastly, if you recommend against Arsenal, what are quality alternatives? Please be specific and provide links if possible. Thanks.
woodfiend
Member
I if I were you I would consider something else, given your budget. If you MUST have an AK though, I would look at a Valmet.
nalioth
Member
As I have remarked before, any AK built in a state factory costs less than $100 to make (this includes 4 mags, cleaning kit, mag pouch, sling, bayonet). Any (and I mean any) Kalashnikov built in a state factory is gonna run as reliably as any other.marineman said:
Arsenal, Inc has an excellent marketing department and this department makes a tasty kool-aid. Their AKs don't do anything different than any other countries AK, except have their marketing department behind them. How else do they get folks to pay $1300 for a >$100 Kalashnikov?
Ace makes a good product. They have adapters so that their stocks will fit any type Kalashnikov.marineman said:
Of course. There have been over 240,000,000 7.62x39 AK magazines manufactured. Any will fit any 7.62x39 Kalashnikov.marineman said:
I don't recommend against Arsenal, I just think there are better uses for your money when buying a Kalashnikov (like buying a less expensive [but no less reliable] model and spending the savings on ammo). These are not hand built Purdeys or Hollands. If you're buying a Kalashnikov because it "looks pretty", you're missing the point (and "looks pretty" is all that Arsenal brings to the table over the competition). These are carbines designed to be made as cheaply and reliably as possible, and not heirloom pieces.marineman said:
Points taken. I have heard that some AKs have bad sights and other defects., but will still go bang when the trigger is squeezed. I want to make sure don't buy some AK that has one of those defects and I end up regretting dishing out the extra dough for an Arsenal. However, from the sounds of it, Arsenal AKs are nice, but not worth the cost of 2-3 other AKs.
What are comprable alternatives that are less expensive than Arsenal AKs, but that are as accurate and refined.
What are comprable alternatives that are less expensive than Arsenal AKs, but that are as accurate and refined.
nalioth
Member
Vector Arms has gone out of business (so much for the lifetime warranty).marineman said:
As mentioned, a Saiga (convert it yourself for best results) will probably be your least expensive and most logical option.
Ironically, the underfolder that I had was a Vector Polish underfolder.
If I recall correctly, some of the Vector AK's in the later years did not have chrome barrels. I would want a chrome barrel on an AK.
Mine was bought directly from Vector and had a chrome barrel. It was well put together, built out of a Polish kit on a Ewbanks receiver. The rifle was parkerized and the finish held up wonderfully. Magazines locked up nicely. My only complaint was that the folding stock had a little vertical play in it when it locked up-- a common design flaw in the underfolding design.
In the 5 years that I owned the rifle, it never misfed or failed to shoot when I needed it to. It was one of the more accurate AK's that I have seen.
I got rid of mine because I demanded a bit more accuracy out of a rifle, and switched to the AR platform.
You may need to be aware that I don't think Vector is in business anymore. You'd need to get them second-hand now. Warranties don't exist anymore. I think Vector got in some kind of trouble regarding some ammunition sales not long ago.
Truly sad to see such a fine company go...
You may want to look at Lancaster Consulting (dunno if I spelled that correctly) if you want an AK on par with the Vector. Good reviews, seems to be on the mid-range quality of a Vector, and has a lifetime warranty.
But if you want the a top tier quality AK at a bottom Tier price, you'll look at a Saiga. You can convert it yourself if you can program a VCR and have $100.00. Otherwise, you will pay a bit of a premium for a pre-converted one-- but STILL save money over an Arsenal and have an Arsenal quality AK.
-- John
Thin Black Line
Member
Arsenal AKs have chrome bores. I have one, but I bought it long before the
prices went crazy. It has a milled receiver and shoots great groups for an
AK. Would I spend $1k on it now? No. But, you don't have the market I did
so you may not have the choices right now. I would suggest seeing what
else pops up used over the next few months and there have been a lot of
good recommendations given in this thread for what to look for.
prices went crazy. It has a milled receiver and shoots great groups for an
AK. Would I spend $1k on it now? No. But, you don't have the market I did
so you may not have the choices right now. I would suggest seeing what
else pops up used over the next few months and there have been a lot of
good recommendations given in this thread for what to look for.
wally
Member
Not really true, you need to have basic metal working tools and skills, then its straight forward. If you have to buy tools, it'll be cheaper and safer to buy one pre-converted.
I've converted two .223s, a 76.x39, and a Saiga 12. My Saiga 12 lacked the square cutout for the pistol grip so its a lot more difficult than the other three were.
--wally.
Gord
Member
wally said:
Dude, I'm just barely booze-legal and I did mine in my garage with a Dremel, a file and a Ryobi hand drill. It'd take some effort to screw it up, and even then you'd likely just end up with a few extraneous or misshapen holes in your receiver - wouldn't be the prettiest thing, but it'd still work.
I have owned Saigas and Arsenals. I really do like my Arsenals and think they are worth the money. When you compare them to Century AKMs and whatnot, it is obvious why they cost $750+.
If you want an Arsenal, I would go with a straight stock or side folder. I have an SLR-106FR and love, love, love it. A straight stock will do well too. If you want to mount optics on the side rail, and not mount an Ultimak gas tube, then you need to buy one with a side rail mount. I have a Belorussian PK-AS-V scope on mine and it's tits.
If you want an Arsenal, I would go with a straight stock or side folder. I have an SLR-106FR and love, love, love it. A straight stock will do well too. If you want to mount optics on the side rail, and not mount an Ultimak gas tube, then you need to buy one with a side rail mount. I have a Belorussian PK-AS-V scope on mine and it's tits.
OK. So if I stick with the Arsenal idea, can I mount this http://riflestocks.com/catalog/produ...3e90fffb56e5d8 onto this http://www.impactguns.com/store/SAM7A1R.html without any modifications?
Kymasabe
Member
Personally, I'd buy an unmolested Saiga, do the conversion yourself and build the gun you want.
I'm doing that right now, just picked up a Saiga 7.62 for $350 and am just wiating for some of my conversion parts. I had the gun disassembled, rivets drilled and parts out ready for new ones in about an hour. Really isn't all that hard.
I'm doing that right now, just picked up a Saiga 7.62 for $350 and am just wiating for some of my conversion parts. I had the gun disassembled, rivets drilled and parts out ready for new ones in about an hour. Really isn't all that hard.
chris in va
Member
Ditto. For about $700 you can get a Saiga and put anything you want on it. Anything.
Here's mine in a mild conversion, which I like. Total cost, $500 including the rifle.
I have zero metal working skills and did it in an afternoon with a Dremel and basic hand tools.
Here's mine in a mild conversion, which I like. Total cost, $500 including the rifle.
I have zero metal working skills and did it in an afternoon with a Dremel and basic hand tools.
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Thin Black Line
Member
marineman, the rifle you are looking at may have a lower tang with a couple
small rivets which will have to be cut and removed. You have to purchase
the correct internal receiver block from ACE for mounting the folding hinge
and stock.
small rivets which will have to be cut and removed. You have to purchase
the correct internal receiver block from ACE for mounting the folding hinge
and stock.
Here it is.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/SAM7A1R.html
Also, I am not eager to convert a Saiga. A Saiga just does not seem like a classic AK. It seems more like a sporting rifle in 7.62X39 to me. Also, something about the handguards and barrel area are not the same as AKs.
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