AK questions

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Ruger745

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Hi everybody,
I've noticed that many people cherish the AK-47 and AK-74 rifles. I've never had the chance to be exposed to them and I have a few questions.
1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?
2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.
3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?
4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?
5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc

Thanks for the info
 
All on the netz for your consumption with a little thing called
'Search'

both here and on the Interwebz...

many opinions will vary, and YMMV
 
1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?

It doesn't matter, milled receivers were made because of the inability to produce the designed stamped receivers in the late 40's early 50's. Some countries continued to produce them this way as it requires less machinery.

2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

Russia BY FAR! Izhmash AK's are capable of 1 MOA accuracy with good ammo.

3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?

Cheap AKM's (WASR-10) with cheap ammo will be around 3-4 MOA, quality Russian AK-100 series are around 1 MOA with quality ammo, expect 2-2.5 MOA with Wolf. Can't vouch for Polish AK-74's but heard they are great too.

4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?

Just check your rifle before you buy it. A lot of AK's are of a certain age, and some weren't handled that good before they went to your store. Look for the Tex Grebner tips on buying a WASR-10, they apply for every firearm IMHO.

5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc

More than you'll ever would want to do to it. Izhmash tests their AK's by freezing them, running over them with trucks, smashing them, ... AK's are tough as nails. If you really want to abuse it, the milled receivers might be better though. If you want the best, go with Izhmash.
 
Hi everybody,
I've noticed that many people cherish the AK-47 and AK-74 rifles. I've never had the chance to be exposed to them and I have a few questions.
Howdy! Yeah, these are pretty over-hashed questions, opined on in thousands of threads on hundreds of forums. But everyone's gotta hear it somewhere...might as well get it right the first time! ;)

1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?
Neither.

The original design was a version of a stamped receiver. Russian industrial tech wasn't quite up to producing that in consistent quality so they adopted the milled version for the first 10-12 years as it was easier to build. When the design was modernized into what most of us know as the AKM, an improved stamped design was the result, and constitutes the majority of Kalashnikovs in the world today.

The milled guns are heavier. Many shooters believe they are more accurate. They aren't vastly or consistently more accurate than the stamped guns (both are hampered much more by poor quality cheap 3-rd world ammo and sights which are not the easiest to use than they are by inherent mechanical accuracy deficiencies). Some examples of either design may put rounds into a ~2" group at 100 yds, with good ammo, if the shooter is up to it.

Some believe the milled guns are more durable. This is hotly contested. Neither design will fail before the shooter gives up trying. And either design would consume wear items like barrels long before the receiver itself failed.

The two things the milled receivers do have, heads and shoulders above the stamped guns are, 1) weight, and 2) price. If you are looking for a heavy and expensive Kalashnikov, by all means search out a milled gun.

2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best Kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.
Romania's probably at the bottom. Russia is probably at the top. I guess I'd put them in order otherwise as East Germany(2), Bulgaria (3), Yugo(4), Poland(5). But that's just my opinion -- they all work great. China's in there too, as is Egypt, and others.

Many are more expensive due to rarity, more so than quality.

3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?
Again, it mostly depends on the shooter and how well he/she can handle the sights and the fact that the carbine design doesn't lend itself easily to good bench-rest form. Next, you'll be hampered or helped by the quality of the ammo you're using. US-made commercial stuff? Handloads? Brown Bear? Norinco from the '80s? Russian surplus 5.54x39? I generally believe the 5.45x39 guns to be a hair more accurate, for me, than the 7.62, but individual guns, and results, vary. Some inexpensive ammo works surprisingly well. I've shot real Russian surplus steel cased 5.45 into 2" groups with my AKS-74.

4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?
Sure. Bent, damaged, or out-of-spec magazines happen, just like with any autoloader. The good thing is with AKs, those problems are rare as the mags are built tougher than the rifles, and they're so cheap, if you get a bad one you just toss it out.

As almost all of these rifles which exist here in the US are RE-MANUFACTURED on US-made receivers out of demilled gun parts kits (you should look into "922(r)" so you understand why this is), very few of the common examples were actually assembled in their current version by the original manufacturer. The quality of the assembly HERE varies all over the place. You do see some that were put together sloppily or with crooked front sight blocks, for example. It is still pretty rare to see one that actually doesn't work, though, considering how very VERY many of them there are out there.

5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc
A lot. That's not something that can just be told to you in numeric quantities. They work well under a lot of conditions. Probably, and generally, for longer than most other automatic rifle designs under worse conditions. But they will stop if abused too badly.

Why does it matter to you? Do you treat your guns like that? Very very few of us will ever put our guns under such poor maintenance conditions that we have to trust them to keep running when frozen in a block of muddy ice, or whatever. We aren't taking them to war. Folks who have, generally managed to keep them going. (Just like they have done with the M-16/M-4 family of rifles.) That should be enough of an endorsement, I'd think.
 
@sam1911 and 9-ball

Thanks for the info guys! Nice to know actual information versus hunting down a bunch of it. Never knew that they were pretty accurate, from what I've read there's been many, many complaints about the accuracy. I've also read some about their reliability and was wondering how much it can take, and it appears to be a considerable amount considering Izhmash freezes and runs them over. Is there a reason to why they have to be re-manufactured? Import restriction, or legislation targeting it like in the late 80's with the SG 550 (so I've heard)?

Thanks again for the info guys!
 
@sam1911 and 9-ball

Thanks for the info guys! Nice to know actual information versus hunting down a bunch of it. Never knew that they were pretty accurate, from what I've read there's been many, many complaints about the accuracy. I've also read some about their reliability and was wondering how much it can take, and it appears to be a considerable amount considering Izhmash freezes and runs them over. Is there a reason to why they have to be re-manufactured? Import restriction, or legislation targeting it like in the late 80's with the SG 550 (so I've heard)?

Thanks again for the info guys!
Assault rifles cannot be imported into the United States, and the AK is classified as such. In order to have a legal AK imported, it needs to be in a sporting configuration, such as the Izhmash Saiga rifles (that are easily converted to an AK-like state, or are professionally converted by Arsenal to be a true semi-auto AK-100) or imported as a parts kit, like the Wasrs and pretty much most other things on the market. If it is imported as a parts kit, then the kit has to be demilled and remanufactured.
 
Thanks for the info guys! Nice to know actual information versus hunting down a bunch of it.
No worries! This the kind of place for that. Lots of opinions around, of course, but we're pretty solid when it come to facts! (Now, if we could only decide which ones are which! :D)

Never knew that they were pretty accurate, from what I've read there's been many, many complaints about the accuracy.
Well, picture a couple of generations of American shooters, raised on Winchester M70s and Remington 700s. Big, long, stable, very-well-made and well-finished rifles with huge scopes that sit just beautifully on a rest and/or sandbags on the bench. Now put those guys behind a mass-produced very small carbine with a short length-of-pull, designed to be shot in a completely different setting and with an effective range that was never EVER intended to reach beyond maybe ~300 yds. ... and at that range just to hit a man, anywhere, and with sights that were just barely good enough to be up to the task. Put that rifle in a varmint hunter's hands -- or a "bean field" deer hunter's hands -- and they'll complain to high heaven that it isn't accurate.

But, put a trained shooter into a course of fire that has him engaging close to mid-range targets in a fast-paced dynamic situation and the little carbine SHINES. It is very good at its job. The Soviets understood the idea that "good enough" really WAS good enough, and they could produce lots more guns that were good enough to do the job than they could rifles that were far better than 99.999% of their soldiers would ever need.

I've also read some about their reliability and was wondering how much it can take, and it appears to be a considerable amount considering Izhmash freezes and runs them over.
They are pretty much THE STANDARD for reliability by which every other gun is measured. Ever heard someone call Glocks the "AK of pistols?" That's why. Because a Glock will probably run at least 1/2 as long, under 1/2 as bad conditions as an AK ... and that's pretty darned good.

Is there a reason to why they have to be re-manufactured? Import restriction, or legislation targeting it like in the late 80's with the SG 550 (so I've heard)?
Again, look up the phrase "922(r)." That's the bit of the US Code that says that certain semi-automatic guns aren't quite up to the standards for "sporting" uses, according to the BATFE, and so they cannot be imported. (Also, most were full auto, so not importable or legal for sale here anyway.) However, such guns are perfectly legal to build, buy, sell, own, and use here in the US. Just not IMPORT, or to import all of the parts of such and build it here. The only silver lining to that assinine cloud is that those PARTS are legally importable -- ostensibly to repair guns already in this country. AND, as long as no more than 10 of a very specific list of parts on a gun are made overseas, a gun so assembled is considered to be "Made in the USA."

SOoooo... some smart fellows a good while back realized that we could very easily make an AK receiver shell, a new trigger group, and a couple of other parts. And then we could swap onto that new receiver all the remaining bits and pieces from a Kalashnikov that had been surplused in Bulgaria or Romania or whatever. Those guns were either used and discarded, or often never even issued, but had their receivers cut into bits and all the other parts salvaged. We import the salvaged parts, swap them onto our "NEW, MADE in the USA" gun, and have a working rifle that was based on a Bulgarian, Russian, or whatever rifle, but which was legal to assemble, own and use here.

It is stupid. It is absurd, really, but that's the way it is. So, when you buy many Kalashnikov pattern semi-autos, you're usually buying a gun that was disassembled and rebuilt on a new receiver here in the States.

(There are one or two other ways around the law (like "converting" a Saiga) but I'll let someone else explain those...I'm tired! :D)
 
Out of a box best AK for the money RIGHT NOW,
Siaga sporting rifle, in pretty much all the popular calibers

It IS the russian AK, But from the same factory that made and makes the Russian AK's, just with BAFTE's 'sporting features'

922(r) means you MUST have less than 10 parts of foreign manufacture on the rifle, if you replace the trigger group with a US on, use US mags and furniture, or aftermarket piston in the S-12, you are legal. You can buy one that is already converted, but the $450 AK is now 700+
 
1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?

Stamped, as lighter is better given the rifles purpose. If milled is inherently more accurate it is not by enough to justify the weight given these are not SDM rifles.

2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

Its hard to say as much of what we get in the US is reassembled parts kits. Therefor how they are put together is extremely important. In regards to whats available today the best bet is to go with a Russian or Bulgarian rifle that was imported in a "sporter" configuration and then altered to to be closer to a military configuraiton. In general though i read a comment by Marc Krebs that Russian is best although Bulgarian is just about equal.


3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?

AK74s tend to be more accurate. My Arsenal Russain AK74 has no trouble holding groups under 2" with Russian surplus. It actually shoots much better than Hornaday although neither are anything close to match ammo. On the other hand i have a Yugo M70 underfolder that shoots groups so tight that i can hardly believe although there are occasional flyers. This gun does however have an american made barrel and a type of railed forend that theoretically may improve its accuracy.

4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?

No platform is 100% reliable but an AK is about as close as you can get.

5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc

Extreme heat isn't likely to be an issue. Cold either unless your lubricants freeze. An AK is far less likely than most other designs to be impaired by sand, mud, etc.

I'm a big fan of the AK platform and would highly suggest you get one if possible.
 
If you enjoy some light gunsmithing, I'd suggest picking up a Saiga sporter in your caliber of choice, then "converting" it to the original AK design.

I've got just over $500 ($380 for stock rifle, $140 in conversion parts) into this basic conversion:

saiga_converted.jpg


If you really want a more realistic AKM clone (AK handguars, bayo lug, threaded muzzel, cleaning rod, etc), I'd just drop the cash on an Arsenal SGL series as converting the front-end of a Saiga sporter is labor intensive and will possibly end up costing more in the end...
 
1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?

Stamped, as lighter is better given the rifles purpose. If milled is inherently more accurate it is not by enough to justify the weight given these are not SDM rifles.

2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

Its hard to say as much of what we get in the US is reassembled parts kits. Therefor how they are put together is extremely important. In regards to whats available today the best bet is to go with a Russian or Bulgarian rifle that was imported in a "sporter" configuration and then altered to to be closer to a military configuraiton. In general though i read a comment by Marc Krebs that Russian is best although Bulgarian is just about equal.


3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?

AK74s tend to be more accurate. My Arsenal Russain AK74 has no trouble holding groups under 2" with Russian surplus. It actually shoots much better than Hornaday although neither are anything close to match ammo. On the other hand i have a Yugo M70 underfolder that shoots groups so tight that i can hardly believe although there are occasional flyers. This gun does however have an american made barrel and a type of railed forend that theoretically may improve its accuracy.

4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?

No platform is 100% reliable but an AK is about as close as you can get.

5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc

Extreme heat isn't likely to be an issue. Cold either unless your lubricants freeze. An AK is far less likely than most other designs to be impaired by sand, mud, etc.

I'm a big fan of the AK platform and would highly suggest you get one if possible.
After reading the info that I've been receiving, I'll definitely have to get one once some money starts coming in.

Thanks again for the info!
 
If you enjoy some light gunsmithing, I'd suggest picking up a Saiga sporter in your caliber of choice, then "converting" it to the original AK design.

I've got just over $500 ($380 for stock rifle, $140 in conversion parts) into this basic conversion:

saiga_converted.jpg


If you really want a more realistic AKM clone (AK handguars, bayo lug, threaded muzzel, cleaning rod, etc), I'd just drop the cash on an Arsenal SGL series as converting the front-end of a Saiga sporter is labor intensive and will possibly end up costing more in the end...
Beautiful rifle. Out of curiosity, i was on the Izhmash website and noticed that most of their Saigas have wooden "furniture". Just wondering how durable is the polymer on them, it looks tough as nails.
 
Beautiful rifle. Out of curiosity, i was on the Izhmash website and noticed that most of their Saigas have wooden "furniture". Just wondering how durable is the polymer on them, it looks tough as nails.

Thanks, it's a fun project. The stock hardguard feels nice, good contour for the "thumb forward" hold. I went with a warsaw-length, Kvar stock which seems rock solid. It's a bit more than the Tapco version but I believe it's well worth the extra cash (no experience with Tapco, just going by what I've heard on saiga-12).
 
1. Milled vs Stamped receiver. Which one is generally better, and why?

Sam already discussed why there are stamped and milled receivers. However, I've noticed that most of the milled rifles imported into the US tend to have good fit and finish. The same cannot be said for stamped receiver AKs; there are nice stamped guns and some real clunkers.

2. The Con Bloc countries made, and still produce, AK rifles. Which country would you say makes the best kalashnikov in terms of quality? Poland, Russia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria etc.

It's a toss up between Russia and Bulgaria as to who makes the best AKs. As previously noted, the Romanian guns tend to rank towards the bottom in fit and finish, but most of them work just fine.

3. What kind of accuracy can be expected from the AK-47 and AK-74?

The limiting factors for AK accuracy are usually the open sights with a short sight radius, and quality of the ammunition. Most AKs in 7.62x39 will ground into about 4" at 100 yards. Those in 5.56mm or 5.45mm are usually more accurate.

4. probably a stupid question, but I'll throw it out anyways. Reliability, ever seen, had or heard of a problem? If so, what would cause it?

Genuine military AKs are very reliable, though with enough neglect or abuse even they will malfunction. Most AKs produced for the American market are also very reliable though even the best will sometimes fail. I've seen a well-maintained Bulgarian AK go down at a 3-gun match due to a rare type of malf, in which the empty case somehow bounces back inside the receiver behind the bolt carrier.

5. What can it take on in terms of abuse? Extreme heat and cold, ice, mud, sand, water etc.

The AK will stand up to extreme environmental conditions as good or better than any other autoloading rifle. Things that can cause stoppages include excess dirt or mud in the magazine or the receiver.
 
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