This is interesting because I was just thinking about this the other day. I've known the definition of an assault rifle but then I was thinking about weapons such as the SCAR or .308 versions of the AR-15 platform. The SCAR for example comes in two chamberings even though it is the same gun. Kind of weird how the same gun can be classified as an assault rifle and also not.
AK47, Assault Rifle or Battle Rifle?
- Thread starter Milsurplover
- Start date
- Status
txhoghunter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2010
- Messages
- 663
If we get into this, then my input is that for military applications this is typically a Sniper Rifle. (M110)
However, as it's civilian AR-15 brother, owned by a civilian it is just a semi auto rifle, designated AR-10
and to answer the OP; the AK is an assault rifle. As stated by others, less power to reduce recoil and controllable** automatic fire
**in the right hands of course
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The AK is the quintessential assault rifle. Not the first but definitely the most iconic and prolific. Not a battle rifle.
Semi-auto civillian versions of assault rifles are NOT assault rifles. We should never accept the terminology of the anti's and correct every post referring to an AR-15 or semi-auto AK as an assault rifle.
Semi-auto civillian versions of assault rifles are NOT assault rifles. We should never accept the terminology of the anti's and correct every post referring to an AR-15 or semi-auto AK as an assault rifle.
otomik
Member
it doesn't even have a spitzer bullet and it's useful range is more like 200 yards rather than the 300 or 500 yards most assault rifles have.SaxonPig said:
think
7.92x33mm
7.62x39mm
there's these full caliber slow loopy trajectory early assault rifles
and the later small caliber fast flat shooting assault rifles
5.56x45mm
5.45x39mm
the Original Poster has confused the early generation of full caliber intermediate cartridges with a battle rifle cartridge. but that's not so difficult if you consider 7.62mm CETME or 7.62mm HOWA or 7.62x45mm Czech.
I believe that the AK47 was the original, or close to it, "assault rifle". Not the assault rifle defined by US politicians, but a true assault rifle, and the full auto ones only.
They/Mikhail Kalashnikov went for reliability, rate of fire, at the expense of range and accuracy. Basically designed it to be its most effective at <300 yards.
They/Mikhail Kalashnikov went for reliability, rate of fire, at the expense of range and accuracy. Basically designed it to be its most effective at <300 yards.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Close to it. The original "assault rifle" (Sturmgewehr or "Storm rifle") was the German StG 44, which fired the 7.92x33mm Kurtz cartridge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The German Sturmgewehr is the original.
It is a rifle... if you assault with it it's an assault rifle, if you battle with it it's a battle rifle. If you just punch paper with it... it's a range rifle. I'll never understand why people get so wrapped up in vague classifications that mean different things to different people.
A Remington 700, is it a sniper rifle? a hunting rifle? a range rifle? That depends... it's how it's actually used that defines it. Until then it's just a rifle.
My $0.02
A Remington 700, is it a sniper rifle? a hunting rifle? a range rifle? That depends... it's how it's actually used that defines it. Until then it's just a rifle.
My $0.02
henschman
Member
I don't think that full auto capability necessarily makes the AK a more effective weapon, at least in the hands of most of its users worldwide. I think most of them would be more effective with it if they did not have the full auto option. I've seen the videos of how some of those Africans and Middle Easterners shoot those things, and it is most definitely "spray and pray." They say that more people have been killed by AKs than any other single type of weapon, but I actually think the kill count would be higher if they were all semi auto. Those who know when and where to use full auto, like for suppressive fire, ambushes, and possibly close quarters room/trench clearing, might be more effective with it, but not the average bozo. I actually wish more of those people who go on shooting sprees did it with full autos. I think they would be less effective and would run out of ammo faster.
Now the '74 may be a different story... that thing has near zero recoil, and you can damn near put them all in one hole on full auto.
Now the '74 may be a different story... that thing has near zero recoil, and you can damn near put them all in one hole on full auto.
Assault rifles shoot an intermediate cartridge and have a full auto capability. The semi auto AKs most of us own don't fit that definition, but the original design they were derived from do.
Battle rifles shoot a full power cartridge capable of hitting area targets at 800M. The AK doesn't even come close.
The semi auto AK isn't either an assault rifle or a battle rifle, but it's closer to the former than the latter.
The term "assault rifle" and "Main Battle Rifle" have definitions that refer to specific firearms types with definite characteristics in much the same way that clip and magazine or bullet and cartridge refer to specific, very different, things.
There will always be those that don't care about conventions and decide that they'll call whatever they want whatever they want though, and they often refuse to be educated.
I've seen people refer to their pistol caliber carbine and even their shotgun as their "MBR". Typically, those people are new or casual shooters or fudds. Most experienced collectors/shooters/owners know the difference and it is a giveaway that you're talking to someone with less experience in those specific types of firearms
Battle rifles shoot a full power cartridge capable of hitting area targets at 800M. The AK doesn't even come close.
The semi auto AK isn't either an assault rifle or a battle rifle, but it's closer to the former than the latter.
The term "assault rifle" and "Main Battle Rifle" have definitions that refer to specific firearms types with definite characteristics in much the same way that clip and magazine or bullet and cartridge refer to specific, very different, things.
There will always be those that don't care about conventions and decide that they'll call whatever they want whatever they want though, and they often refuse to be educated.
I've seen people refer to their pistol caliber carbine and even their shotgun as their "MBR". Typically, those people are new or casual shooters or fudds. Most experienced collectors/shooters/owners know the difference and it is a giveaway that you're talking to someone with less experience in those specific types of firearms
henschman
Member
As for what category to put the semi auto AK in, I have no idea... I guess you could call it a "semi auto assault rifle," though the terminology gurus will jump on you and say that's a contradiction in terms, since an assault rifle is by definition full auto capable. I guess to be more correct you would call it a "semi automatic version of an assault rifle design."
The term "battle rifle" doesn't have as much of a hard, fast definition as "assault rifle." It was used to describe military-pattern bolt action rifles back to WWI times, and has also been applied to self loading or select fire rifles like the FAL and M-14. I agree that it generally requires a full-power cartridge. As for what sets it apart from any other type of full-powered rifle, like a hunting rifle, I suppose it would be that a battle rifle is designed to be loaded quickly, whether it is from stripper clips on a bolt action, en-bloc clips in an M-1, or detachable magazines in a more modern battle rifle. So basically a battle rifle is a rifle in a full power cartridge designed for use in combat. Not a category I would put the AK in because of it's intermediate power cartridge.
The term "battle rifle" doesn't have as much of a hard, fast definition as "assault rifle." It was used to describe military-pattern bolt action rifles back to WWI times, and has also been applied to self loading or select fire rifles like the FAL and M-14. I agree that it generally requires a full-power cartridge. As for what sets it apart from any other type of full-powered rifle, like a hunting rifle, I suppose it would be that a battle rifle is designed to be loaded quickly, whether it is from stripper clips on a bolt action, en-bloc clips in an M-1, or detachable magazines in a more modern battle rifle. So basically a battle rifle is a rifle in a full power cartridge designed for use in combat. Not a category I would put the AK in because of it's intermediate power cartridge.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I'd call it a semiautomatic carbine; it is in precisely the same class as a Ruger Mini Thirty, which is functionally identical.
hiawatha
Member
These classifications are so full of exceptions that they're useless. The M2 carbine is neither an assault rifle nor a battle rifle. In fact, it's a stretch to call it a rifle. It was intended to substitute for a pistol. I'd call it a semi-auto pistol with a long barrel and a shoulder stock. Kind of like a more modern Mauser Broomhandle. An M-16 isn't a true assault rifle, either, because it fires an extremely high-velocity round -- a true rifle round. An "assault rifle" fires what amounts almost -- well, I was going to say an intentional squib, but it's not quite like that. I think Nautilus got it right.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The definition generally refers to a cartridge of "intermediate power", which 5.56x45mm/.223 definitely is. In terms of energy, it lies between 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm, right in that band of energies halfway between pistols and full-power rifles.
As to velocity, 5.56x45mm velocities in military length barrels are not "extremely high velocity" by any means. I see 2733 ft/sec with 77gr OTM's out of 14.5" barrels on the low end, to 3250 ft/sec for the old 55gr M193 out of a 20" barrel on the high end. Fast, but not that fast.
FWIW, you could drive 7.62x39mm at 2800 to 3000 ft/sec if you used a sufficiently light bullet, but that doesn't mean 7.62x39mm isn't an intermediate caliber.
HorseSoldier
Member
+1. Saying the M16 isn't an assault rifle is enforcing a rather narrower definition of that term than anyone else uses. The small caliber, high velocity line of thinking for assault rifles was just the second evolutionary step for those weapons after the initial fielding of the weapons that used the same bore as their full powered rifle relatives.
(And it should be noted that 7.92x33 and 7.62x39 were, in neither case, the preferred caliber on the R&D side of the house. The Germans were initially pursuing a 7mm intermediate round and the Soviets were very interested in something based on existing .25 caliber rounds. The use of the full bore rounds was an artifact of the logistics crowd trying to streamline production during WW2, when the StG-44 was hitting the front and the M43 round was in development and limited combat use in the SKS.)
(And it should be noted that 7.92x33 and 7.62x39 were, in neither case, the preferred caliber on the R&D side of the house. The Germans were initially pursuing a 7mm intermediate round and the Soviets were very interested in something based on existing .25 caliber rounds. The use of the full bore rounds was an artifact of the logistics crowd trying to streamline production during WW2, when the StG-44 was hitting the front and the M43 round was in development and limited combat use in the SKS.)
Don't forget the RPD, according to Wikipedia it was the first weapon to use the 7.62x39 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPD).
- Status
