question about so called "battle rifles"

[Neo-Luddite]

MBR has just come to be a handy way of refering to service rifles of traditional size and power.

20 years ago the 'EBR' 5.56 crowd would (on occasion) scoff and show veiled disdane for those of us showing the 'sentimentality' of professing faith in what a solid .30 cal service rifle can do. The debate is on a little different footing now and most people recognize that a full-power service rifle still has a place, often now as DMR.

The handel MBR is a handy shorthand for recognizing and acknowledging that the .30 service rifle hasn't outlived it's combat utilty; new jargon for an old thing.

 

[eldon519]

I think it's a worthwhile term. In traveling and gaining exposure to other cultures, I've learned some languages simply are not as developed as others, especially in a technical sense. There basically is no way to say certain things, so they have to rely on other languages for industry purposes. The Soviet Union is a good example. A lot of the native tongues of the former republics within the SU did not develop technically because industry used the Russian language, and they simply don't have words in their native languages. To me it never hurts to have more vocabulary and the option of saying things concisely. Whether you agree or disagree with the connotations, you know what the speaker is trying to say, and I think Art hit the nail on the head when he said, "Try to figure out the point of what somebody is trying to say, or what is the actual question. Don't get hung up on word usage by others, whether right, wrong or indifferent in your opinion."

 

[H2O MAN]

All of my battle rifles have been enhanced... they wear the EBR moniker.

 

[papajack]

where did the term battle rifle come from? is it just a gun culture term, like "LEO"?. I haven't found any military, government, or firearms company/manufacturer that recognizes the term, in fact some call "battle rifles" (like the G3) assault rifles. sorry if i'm coming off ignorant but I just can't understand how a weapon, like the FAL or G3, can't be called assault rifles, even though they are, with the exception of being chambered for a round that is about 30% larger. as always, thanks if anyone has any sources (besides wikipedia, I don't trust a website anyone can edit )

 

[JWarren]

I've always been comfortable with the terms Main Battle Rifle and Assault Rifle. I believe those terms existed prior to the internet discussion community-- if my memory serves me. And I'm comfortable with the generalization that a MBR is a full-power cartridge platform whereas an Assault Rifle is an intermediate-power cartridge platform.


I think the discussion would be well served if we could define the break where a cartridge moves from being an intermediate cartridge to a full-power cartridge.

As I see it, its always kinda been like pornography as it pertains to Freedom of Speech-- no one can define it, but everyone knows it when they see it.

I'd imagine that the measurement would go in the way of energy delivered. However, since this is often a function of case size, perhaps there could be a "rule of thumb" based upon that in order to be easier to distinguish.

I'm operating on my first cup of coffee at this time, so I may not have thought this through, but I'd almost be willing to propose that a cartridge with a case length of 50mm or longer would qualify as full-power.

Doing that includes cartridges that are undisputed full-power cartridges such as:

7.62x63 (30-06)
7.62x54R
7.62x51 (.308)

But excludes rounds that have a general consensus to be intermediate rounds such as:

5.56x45 (.223)
7.62x39
6.8 SPC
6.5 Grendel
5.45x39



Now to slip into my flame-retardent underoos...

-- John



EDIT:


On a side note.... I really fail to see why we get so emotionally wrapped up in this discussion. It almost seems that the term "Main Battle Rifle" is a value-oriented term to some. It almost seems the there is an assumption that if you don't get to call your rifle or cartridge a "MBR," it is somehow not worthy or battle-proven.

It's kinda idiotic. Consider that the intermediate cartridge was developed AFTER the full-sized cartridge-- in order to address some of the issues with using a full-powered cartridge in roles.

The intermediate cartridge has proven its worth since its creation. Some could say that it severly took a bite out of the roles of both the MBR AND the SMG. Some would say that its practically ended the era of the SMG. And considering that the US uses an intermediate round as is primary rifle platform, I don't think there should be any question as to its effectiveness.

I don't know. I don't let such designations become Value-oriented statements to me. It is what it is. Truth doesn't care if you believe it or not, and the need for distinguising cartridges is makes sense.

I've owned MBR calibers and I know what I need them for. I've also owned intermediate calibers and know what I need them for.

But I don't get all wrapped up in what they are beyond their characteristics and capabilities.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

my .02
a battle rifle is something we used when we "battled" germany, they fought back and it was a battle
now that we are more touchy feely enlightened we are "assaulting" poor disenfranchised iraqis, you horrible horrible person how can you be so evil as to stand up for yourself and not just die!!! after all you ARE in THEIR country
with that in mind if i am ever using a rifle to defend my person, my country, my home, or my loved ones you better believe its going to be a battle rifle, even if its a pump action .22 its a battle rifle

 

[JWarren]

you horrible horrible person how can you be so evil as to stand up for yourself and not just die!!! after all you ARE in THEIR country

This really isn't the place-- nor the topic--to discuss feelings on the War in Iraq, the War on Terror, or the Politics of War.


But BTW... whether the rifle was used while we "battled" Germany or not is completely irrelevant. We used Thompsons in .45ACP and M1 Carbines in .30 Carbine during that time. Neither of those are "MBR's.

In addition, we are using M14's in a DMR role in Iraq. Because this is "Assaulting the poor disenfranchised iraqis," should we now consider a 7.62x51 NATO an "Assault" cartridge?

Insomuch as it it isn't productive to get emotionally wrapped up in calibers, it is even less so to get politically wrapped up in them.


-- John

 

[FuzzyBunny]

I just love the term

HSR
Homeland Security Rifle

I know it is off topic but it describes all my rifles

 

[H2O MAN]

My favorite acronym for my collection:

HDW = Homeland Defense Weapon

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Assault Rifle is a correct term the Sig 55X series uses it, Stg 500, Stg being Sturmgewehr or "storm rifle" a term that dates back to the first true Assault Rifle the Stg 44 or Sturmgewehr 44 (Storm rifle again) so the first use is usually accepted. (Germanic languages are fun arnt they?)

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

This really isn't the place-- nor the topic--to discuss feelings on the War in Iraq, the War on Terror, or the Politics of War.

jwarren, i was speaking sarcastically, its a joke
IMO the reason for "assault" instead of "battle" is an envrionment of rabid politcal correctness. Assault rifle was a made up term by the media the internet jumped on and used battle rifle to distinguish full power military rifles from intermediate power rifles.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Assault rifle was a made up term by the media the internet jumped on and used battle rifle to distinguish full power military rifles from intermediate power rifles.

Actually the term "assault RIFLE" is very old, used by the Germans in WWII even, maybe earlier but that is the oldest usage I've seen.
The STG44 or Sturmgewehr 44 translated literally means "storm rifle" as in to "storm a bunker".
The English term would be to "assault" so the term "assault rifle" is the English usage of Sturmgewehr.

Assault WEAPON is the media twisted term.

 

[BigG]

Tony Williams said everything. It is a feel good term for .308 owners or wannabes to bandy about. Nobody really firearms knowledgeable listens, recognizing it as purely marketing-speak.

 

[BigG]

where did the term battle rifle come from? is it just a gun culture term, like "LEO"?. I haven't found any military, government, or firearms company/manufacturer that recognizes the term

NRA disinformation publications occasionally use the aurally offending term. Look at Am Rifleman and you'll probably come across it. (insert barf icon).

 

[tpelle]

It's purely a matter of the cartridge, IMHO.

Don't confuse the 7.62 x 51 as being an "intermediate" cartridge - it is basically a "product-improved" 30-06. Look at the specs - the same weight bullet at the same velocity, just taking advantage of the advances made in production of powder.

The "Assault Rifle", as pointed out above, was a German WWII invention - after all, they coined the term - and was intended to fire a shortened 8mm Mauser round. Ever since, the term "Assault Rifle" has been taken to mean a rifle capable of select fire that used an intermediate cartridge.

"Intermediate" means something between a handgun round (submachine gun) and a full power round like the 8mm Mauser, the 30-06, the 7.62 x 54r Russian, the .303 British, or the 7.62 x 51 NATO.

The select-fire is an intrinsic characteristic of a true "Assautl Rifle" - a fact that escapes our legislators and news media.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I gotta say, the GOA guys have managed to blame the NRA for a lot of stuff over the years, but blaming the NRA for the term "battle rifle" is a hell of a stretch.

 

[Magnuumpwr]

I think we should kick all these Battle rifle, Assult rifle terms to the curb and use the default term of War rifles. If used in a conflict as a main deployment rifle, it is a proven war rifle. As far as Legislatures go, most couldn't distinguish a Swiffer from a gun anyways, they would just suggest pushing for laws to ban those swiveling butt stocks!!!

 

[BigG]

I think we should kick all these Battle rifle, Assult rifle terms to the curb and use the default term of War rifles.

How about gun, or weapon, or rifle? All perfectly good, adjective free terms.

 

[AndyC]

"This is my rifle, this is my gun..."

 

[Trebor]

To the military, a rifle is a "rifle." They aren't "assault rifles" or "battle rifles" they are rifles known by their specific nomenclature.

The M-1 Garand was officially known as the "Rifle, semi-automatic, M-1."

The M-16 is known as the "M-16A2"

The term "battle rifle" does pre-date the net, or at least the web. I first saw it in rules tables for the "Twilight 2000" game back in the mid-80's. It was used to differianate the .308 rifles from the 5.56 rifles. I'm sure that usage goes back even further.

It is not military usage though.

 

[eldon519]

I'm not sure why everyone is so excited to destroy the nomenclature. The term "battle rifle" is not an inherently offensive one. The only people who seem to get bent out of shape about it are those who do not seem secure with their intermediate-round rifles. It is what it is, no need to get touchy about it. I have both "assault rifles" and "battle rifles". One is not better than the other. They each do different things well. Make no mistake though, they are not the same, hence why different terminology is appropriate.

Repeat after me:
I am not threatened by the term 'battle rifle'.
I am not threatened by the term 'battle rifle'.
I am not threatened by the term 'battle rifle'.

Feel better?

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't usually hear "battle rifle" in connection with bolt action rifles. I call those "war rifles" instead.

I can see some utility in "battle rifle." There is a real difference between the heavy select fire weapons firing .308 class cartridges and the much lighter select fire weapons firing an intermediate cartridge. They feel different both before and during shooting, and they perform differently.

 

[Cosmoline]

Battle rifles - 7.62x51
Skirmish Rifles - 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 Spc
Scrimmage Rifles - 7.62x39
Assault Rifles - 5.56, 5.45

Badinage Rifle
Fracas Rifle
Bruehaha Rifle
Strong Language Rifle

 

[DMK]

I always felt the term Main Battle Rifle had it's roots in the term Main Battle Tank. It's a very manly and satisfying term.

"Sure you can plink at that gong out there with your little poodle shooter AR if you want, but stand aside while I ring it with my Main Battle Tank.. er, I mean Rifle."

Yeah, we don't do battles anymore, we do assaults. After that it might be engagements/confrontations(?)..

Ooh, I like that term. "This here's my Confrontation Carbine."

"Engagement Rifle" would sure be a confusing term. Has a sort of "Shotgun Wedding" vibe.

 

[Dave R]

An old marine I grew up with explained to me in about 1988 that the U.S. Military had shifted policy in Vietnam, from using battle rifles to using assault rifles. When I asked him what that meant, he explained that a battle rifle is implemented to dominate a much larger piece of real estate than an assault rifle. The cartridges being used currently were intended to be short to medium range, meaning that the military no longer intends one soldier with a rifle to be the factor that controls a large piece of real estate. He also reluctantly agreed that if the military was no longer willing to take the time necessary to train soldiers to shoot further than 500 yards, there wasn't much point in using a cartridge that was effective further than that.

Ding! Ding! Ding! I think there's your answer.

And Art, its a fact. The .223 IS a varmit round.