AK74/5.45mm Would you Recommend ?

[beerslurpy]

Sedated pigs are good model of human wound trauma because they have the same types of tissues in about the same amount as us. If something doesnt damage a pig gut, it isnt going to damage ours. If it doesnt damage a pig's lung, guess whose lung is similar?

You also need to realize that Fakcler went into these experiments already knowing a ton about exactly what rounds produce what effects on the human body. He has a ton more experience treating combat injuries from all the military rifle calibers than nearly anyone else on the planet.

He has capped his long and distinguished career as a battlefield surgeon by discovering artificial medium and animal tissue models that reproduce the results he observed in the battlefield. Not only is he incredibly intelligent, but his wealth of knowledge on this subject is going to be hard to equal without spending a lot of time patching up soldiers. Being a civilian trauma surgeon isnt going to help much because rifle and pistol terminal ballistics are very different and very few civilians are shot with rifle rounds, relatively speaking.

And he has shown that Glaser is a crappy round. Very light penetration. Everyone that has tested it has concluded that it lacks sufficient coherence as a projectile to reach the vital internal organs and cause incapacitation.

 

[Kurush]

Sorry guys. You're all right. [various absurd claims falsely attributed to fackler]

No wonder you don't like Fackler, you have no idea what he's said.

 

[PAC 762]

No wonder you don't like Fackler, you have no idea what he's said.

It's not that I have no idea what he said. Half of my comment were a joke, in case you didn't notice the smiley at the ends. I read fackler's stuff a while back (5-10 years,) , and agreed with it. My only serious objection was his lack of using a real-world environment. He does not (at least from what I read) shoot through clothing, LBE's, canteens, barriers, sandbags, baynets, canteens, soldiers death letters, above than average sized ....socks, etc. More importantly, he doesn't take the HUGE advantage that barrier penetration make. Try disabiling a vehicle with that 55 FMJ or 77 OTM and report back . I betcha that awesome 5.56 mm wiz-bang wonder- round was great help, huh?

I just trust 1st hand experience and 2nd hand military history before I trust way too specific lab result that doesn't take environmental factors into account.

I think Fackler is a giant leap ahead of that marshall & sanow (sp?) cr@p, but it's still lab data compared to uncertain field cercumstances.

I will always trust trust bullet that weighs 3x as much and goes the same speed. Mass is constant, velocity is not. Expansion is not. Fragmentation is not. Majic ammo geanies are not. I trust big bullets over small bullets. [/end rant]

Anywho, I shoot paper, not animals or people. 5.45 mm works perfectly for me, as does 77 gr 5.56 OTM, as does 30mm Vulcan and .22 short.

 

[beerslurpy]

Since you didnt read the post directly above the one you just made, I think I should mention this again: Fackler spent years as a battlefield surgeon, including the entire stretch of Vietnam. He has seen his share of real world data.

And 5.45 is a very good paper puncher. My objections are entirely based on terminal ballistics.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

He does not (at least from what I read) shoot through clothing, LBE's, canteens, barriers, sandbags, baynets, canteens, soldiers death letters, above than average sized ....socks, etc.

Well, I can't verify that Fackler himself has; but certainly the people he has trained have. The FBi for example routinely includes auto glass, wood, steel and similar barriers in its gel testing. DocGKR has done gel testing with loaded AK mags in front of the gel.

Try disabiling a vehicle with that 55 FMJ or 77 OTM and report back . I betcha that awesome 5.56 mm wiz-bang wonder- round was great help, huh.

Just a few questions:

1. What relevance does that have to 5.45mm terminal ballistics (i.e. the subject of THIS thread)?
2. Where in this thread did anyone recommend 5.56mm for disabling a vehicle?
3. Where has Fackler ever claimed that 5.56mm was a great barrier penetrator or that it was THE round for disabling vehicles?

By the way, if you can't tie this into 5.45mm ballistics or the subject of this thread in short order, then please be courteous to your fellow members and start a new thread to discuss the OT subject. That way people with an interest in this subject don't have to filter a bunch of OT replies to find useful info.

 

[clange]

So when are we going to get some gel tests of soft point 5.45?

 

[Kurush]

Who makes softpoint 5.45? I checked Wolf and Barnaul. I'd think the bullet is too light to make a good softpoint anyhow.

 

[clange]

Barnaul makes it, I believe under the silver bear line. I cant find any online though. It was all over the place a couple months back.

Edit: Ammunitionstore.com has some.

 

[Preacherman]

To try to get back to the original question of this thread...

Would I recommend 5.45mm. in an AK74? The answer is "It depends" - on what you want the rifle for.

For straightforward paper-punching and fun use, sure, it's a reasonably cheap, reliable round, that is flat-shooting and has very low recoil. No reason not to like it.

For a self-defence weapon? I'm not sure about this. Military FMJ ammo has the limitations referred to above - as does FMJ in 5.56mm. If you can get decent SP or HP ammo, that solves that problem: but you may find it significantly easier to get good ammo in 5.56mm. (e.g. Hornady TAP, hunting/varmint rounds, etc.) than in 5.45mm.

For an all-round SHTF do-anything weapon? Definitely NOT. You will have to hunt with your gun as well as defend yourself, and the 5.xxmm. rounds are simply not up to the task of taking deer-size game with reliability. The 7.62x39mm. is a much better round for this task, as it's ballistically almost identical to the good ol' .30-30, one of the premier hunting rounds in North America for over a century. .308 will be even better, albeit at the cost of ammo load and probably a different weapons platform (i.e. non-AK, unless you go for a Saiga) for it.

 

[Mr. Hankey]

Anyone who feels a need to purchase a firearm in this caliber should realise that ammo is not locally available in most of the country, you must buy in bulk through mail order.

Not made in the USA, subject to importation bans on a whim, if I had anything in this caliber I would keep all the ammo I might ever want to shoot on hand...

I don't know about your area, but I have not been to a gun show where 5.45 was not readily available.
They have cases stacked like cord wood.
Average price is around $110 for 960 rounds.

 

[whm1974]

I don't know about your area, but I have not been to a gun show where 5.45 was not readily available.
They have cases stacked like cord wood.
Average price is around $110 for 960 rounds.

When I got my gun rights back last year and started doing some research after 8 years of not being around guns, I was suprise that we could get AKs in 5.45x39 or even the ammo. When did they started importing them?

I don't know if I would want a firearm in a caliber that will disapeer due to an import ban.

-Bill

 

[Pilot]

When I got my gun rights back last year and started doing some research after 8 years of not being around guns, I was suprise that we could get AKs in 5.45x39 or even the ammo. When did they started importing them?

I don't know if I would want a firearm in a caliber that will disapeer due to an import ban.

I think that's a valid concern, but 5.45 can be easily reloaded using cut down .222 brass and resized bullets.

 

[whm1974]

I think that's a valid concern, but 5.45 can be easily reloaded using cut down .222 brass and resized bullets.

Not everyone wants to reload, especially if they have reform brass and bullets.

-Bill

 

[clange]

If wolf was banned for some reason, some american company would start making 5.45. There are enough people with rifles in the caliber now that there would be a decent market. It might cost a lot more than wolf/barnaul, but you'd have it.

 

[Newton]

Thanks for getting my thread back on track, having asked about the Ak-4/5.45mm and finding myself sifting through responses about 5.56mm not being able to stop cars

Sounds like the majority believe the good old AK-47 to be a better buy in many respects, but the lighter 74 with the flatter and lighter shooting rounds sounds like fun, and ultimately that's all I'm looking for.

Thanks

 

[whm1974]

With any bullet, "Location" still rules the day I would think. I don't think One-Shot-Stop works with any small caliber cartridge without proper placement.

How many people just shoot one shot? Most places train two shots to the chest, and one to the head if the first two don't work.

-bill

 

[beerslurpy]

flatter and lighter shooting rounds sounds like fun, and ultimately that's all I'm looking for.

Thanks

It is hands down a better plinker and paper puncher.

I prefer the AK, but it is meant for hitting people, not 10-rings and woodchucks. Shooting at small stuff from > 100m is frustrating.

 

[jobu07]

Shooting at small stuff from > 100m is frustrating.

I think it's more fun than frustrating! Half the fun is the challenge of trying to hit the small stuff.

 

[mr.trooper]

You're really limited in ammo.

No availability of tracers or incendiary.

I'd personally pass. 7.62x39 has more of a variety of ammo types.

No offence man, but the lack of Tracers and incendiarys is a GOOD thing in my book. They are pointless in a semi-auto rifle anyway...not to mention that they have different trajecoties than standard munitions, throwing off your accuracy. But when has accuracy counted for anything right?

 

[Ivy Mike]

I love my Bulgarian.

Arsenal inc SLR-105R

Great build quality, and the ammunition is a real flat shooter.

Terminal balistics aren't that great, but thats why I have 30rd magazines. To be honest, I'd probably reach for my FN Forty-Nine before the AK.
155grn, .40S&W Speer Gold Dots are a great performer.

 

[whm1974]

Shooting at small stuff from > 100m is frustrating.

Why would shout at something more then 100 yard away with an AK? That's why we have bolt guns.

-Bill

 

[Ivy Mike]

Why would shout at something more then 100 yard away with an AK? That's why we have bolt guns.

-Bill

Because its fun!!
I can hit targets at 100 yards with my AK. My bolt guns do it better, but the AK is certainly capable of good accuracy at 100 yards.

 

[whm1974]

but the AK is certainly capable of good accuracy at 100 yards.

I'm aware of this, I'm talking past 100 yards. However most people probley wouldn't be good shots with an AK at that range.

-Bill

 

[ftierson]

Thanks for getting my thread back on track, having asked about the Ak-4/5.45mm and finding myself sifting through responses about 5.56mm not being able to stop cars

Sounds like the majority believe the good old AK-47 to be a better buy in many respects, but the lighter 74 with the flatter and lighter shooting rounds sounds like fun, and ultimately that's all I'm looking for.

Thanks

By the way, Newton, I have some Bulgarian AK-74s and other AKM type rifles...

I like both the 7.62x39mm and the 5.45x39mm cartridges for shooting fun, but I think that I like the 5.45x39mm more... It continues to grow on me.

Many of the Bulgarian AK-74 kits that were sold a little while back were from absolutely new rifles, and rifles built on them are things of beauty. Then again, many of the Romanian AIM (AKM) kits being sold right now are also from new rifles...

The only way to solve your original "problem" is to build up both 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm rifles and see which you prefer...

Of course, as much as I like the AK-74, it's hard to argue against absolutely new Romanian AIM kits for $100...

Forrest

 

[Domino]

If I where to get an AK in 5.45X39 I would get a GP WASR-2...

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Romanian_WASR-2_5.45x39_AK_Rifles.html

I like my WASR-10 soo much I would not see any reason to get anything else unless I just had to have something nicer.