Alan Gura Begins Attack on "May-Issue" Carry Laws

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chuck pullen said:
I still find it hard to believe that my home, Alabama, a very conservative state, is still "may issue."


I have never had a problem with my CCW -- I even renew it by mail. For all intents and purposes, atleast here in Morgan Cty., we're a "shall issue" area.
I wish we were truly "shall issue" but nothing is perfect.... Except Big Bob Gibson's BBQ.
 
I find it sickening the government continually links my ownership of a weapon to the ILLEGAL carrying and use of firearms by criminals. I will never understand what ignorance leads them to believe that disarming me or people like me stops criminals from committing crimes with firearms.
 
Thankfully, for all intents and purposes, the vast majority of Alabama Sheriffs are 'Shall Issue' in their approval of CCW permits.
There are a very few AL Sheriffs who deny permits of those who meet the State/Federal qualifications, if you qualify, you get your permit.

Those few who play games do not usually last long come the next Election.

What about those under 21? (I know, we're not *real* adults yet :rolleyes:)I am 20 and meet all state and federal requirements (no min age for issuance of a permit per AL state code), as well as maintain 2 other CCW permits from different states, yet my county Sheriff (Hale of Jefferson County) won't issue me a permit. Thankfully I've only got a few months of this left, but its the principle of the matter that really irks me. I can carry in 20+ other states without issue, I just can't carry at home.

To keep this on topic, I can't wait for a supreme court ruling on Shall/May Issue. By the time it actually happens, I'll probably already have my AL CCW, but it will be a nice moral victory.
 
If the Supreme Court is to rule in favor of "shall issue" against "may issue," the effect of the ruling must be to either eliminate CCW permits altogether or else impose a national standard on CCW permitting from which no state may chose to except itself.

It's just as likely that the court will never hear or decide gainfully on a CCW case because there is no special virtue to concealment protected by the second amendment.

All states may be required against their "states rights" to permit 'open carry,' but nothing in the second amendment protects a right to carry a concealed weapon.

I don't believe for a moment that any majority in the supreme court would rule that the second amendment protects bringing powerful and deadly weapons to meetings with the president, and therefore it is impossible that the supreme court would rule that all restrictions on the carry of arms are protected.

If some restrictions are permitted, then the door is open for restrictions on concealed carry, carry in court rooms, etc etc.
 
Which said, gun enthusiasts owe more to Alan Gura as their champion in Heller than to almost any other person in the history of the country.

The result of his law suit was the most profound pro-gun change in the history of the country's laws.

Everything after Heller, (including even McDonald if you have even the faintest belief in states rights) is just icing on the cake, frill on the sides.
 
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A federal judge has upheld a New York law that requires an applicant to show "a special need for self-protection" before winning a license to carry a handgun.

Seems to me that just living in NYC would qualify for a need for self-protection.

I will never understand what ignorance leads them to believe that disarming me or people like me stops criminals from committing crimes with firearms.

Because it's not about crime and it never has been. It's about control. The criminal element is a small percentage of the population. The masters are willing to accept the collateral damage caused by these types, but the thought of all the subjects being armed makes'em nervous. The armed man also tends to be more self-reliant. The masters want him to depend on government for everything...including protection.

I find it amusing that these people are so arrogant as to believe that none of us ever, ever went armed until the states started issuing concealed carry permits...that we wouldn't dare to carry a gun without their permission. This lends insight into the mind of a big government liberal. Men have been packin' since before Lexington and Concord. It's just that they've been taken a little aback that there are so many of us who want to exercise a right that we actually shouldn't have to have a permit for.

Whether we realize it or not, by applying for a carry permit, we're admitting that RKBA is a privelege granted by the government rather than a right that need not be granted by anyone. Therein lies the paradox.
 
It's just as likely that the court will never hear or decide gainfully on a CCW case because there is no special virtue to concealment protected by the second amendment.
Disagree.

Most locales that bar most CCW by specifying a "need" or "proper person" requirement also bar OC, so that they are preventing most people from carrying for self-defense. The SCOTUS has already determined in Heller that the right to self-defense is fundamental, so that states (thanks, MacDonald!) must now allow some form of carry for SD, barring clear reason that a given individual is not allowed to carry, or that carry in a "sensitive area" is not allowed.

To rule otherwise would require a fundamental reversal of Heller...which is what the antis will hope for (and likely get) if we lose a conservative Justice, or Kennedy.
I will never understand what ignorance leads them to believe that disarming me or people like me stops criminals from committing crimes with firearms.
You may want to re-read Breyer's dissent in Heller. He used standard Brady stats on how much "gun crime" there is, and the "of course" assumption that outlawing guns = no guns = no gun crime to conclude such laws advance the "compelling government interest" of public safety.

Rulings do not require logic or data; assumptions will do.

That is why some folks are hopeful about the recent SCOTUS ruling that said that CA minors could NOT be prevented from buying violent video games, because there was no scientific concensus that playing those games was harmful to kids. If the SCOTUS adopts that reasoning in gun cases, then gun control laws cannot be held consistent with public safety unless there is "consensus" that limiting guns as per a given law (or limiting guns generally) improves public safety.
 
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This whole argument misses the roots of gun control, the rationale back in the day that gun control was started was based in class, race or anti-immigrant prejudice. Gun control in large cities starts, and continues due to fear of the power class in these cities.

Want an example of this power at work? Reagan first implimented the 7 day waiting period, Reagan backed the Brady act, Reagan as governor signed the Mulford Act in 1967, which made it practically impossible to move a gun off your property. Nixon wanted guns banned.

This continues to this day, practically speaking only the rich can afford automatic weapons, a situation that suits some in power just fine, and that was all done with laws, having nothing to do with the real world price of the weapons. Once again Reagan signing the "Firearms Owner`s Protection Act" a lie if there ever was one - on May 19 1986. Guess what day an automatic weapon has to be registered by to be transferable between ordinary citizens?

So it wasn't just Clinton and the Democrats that screwed over your second amendment rights, for some real world class screwing look to a Republican working for the "public good".

Both NYC (about 80% reduction in violent crime in the last 20 years) and Chicago (60%) are resistant to gun freedom, both being large enough to shape what happens in their state. Go ask southern Illiinois or upstate New York what they want and you will find it's overwhelmingly for a right to carry. It wasn't gun control that reduced crime in NYC or Chicago, in both places the criminals are better armed than ever - it was better and smarter policing. To continue to deny people their 2nd amendment rights in these cites isn't a crime issue - although it is portrayed as such both places - then what's the purpose? Who is it that wants this? Not the residents, despite being bombarded with media messages advertising what a great idea gun control is. If not them then who? I have my opinion.

Alabama still may issue? You have no problem getting a permit? Really? Are you African-American? The thing about second amendment rights is they are rights, held by all citizens even folks you don't want to have the right. And that's what makes the right so scary to some in power, and what makes this right so powerful.
 
1911turner,

I carried without a CCW permit when i could not legal purchase a firearm or get a permit (too young at the time), but did so due to specific threats at the time. Sad thing is it is impossible to get a permit to carry in my state (there is a "system" to get one) but it is publicly know that all permits will ne denied (unless of course you the right people $$$). Anyways being a minor at the time and with threats against me i decided to carry for protection, I figured getting caught was worth the risk. I will add that the "threat" did end up being arrested, and I never had to use that gun in self defence but the option was there if needed.

Now i do think it is insane that i can not legally carry especially since i am in a very dangerous area in the state. I also see the effects of criminala that shoot each other up, which happens very frequently here. This indicates that making it difficult to legally obtain a gun and nearly impossible to carry a gun legally has NO impact in obtaining a gun and even increases the carrying of guns by criminals as they know "victims" will be unarmed and an easy target.
 
This whole argument misses the roots of gun control, the rationale back in the day that gun control was started was based in class, race or anti-immigrant prejudice.
Immaterial in court, unless you expect a court to say, "Hey, this was all began as racially motivated--so all gun laws are outta here!"

Certainly, the origins of gun control have not changed since Heller. The only mention of race in that opinion is this one:
Blacks were routinely disarmed by Southern States after the Civil War. Those who opposed these injustices frequently stated that they infringed blacks’ constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
As Scalia chose not to use the "origin" of gun control laws as a basis for striking down the DC law (his mention above was only used to establish that blacks' service in the militia was not at issue in Jim Crow gun laws; personal use of arms was) I don't think we will see it ever used in any 2A case.
 
But even that’s not a complete fallacy - sometimes a criminal won’t carry if it’s illegal, won’t risk arrest when they don’t see a need to be armed. Anti’s argue that any reduction is better than nothing.

No its not a complete fallacy, criminals will sometimes not carry because of the risk. But it doesn't stop them from carrying when they want to commit a crime.
 
Disagree.

Most locales that bar most CCW by specifying a "need" or "proper person" requirement also bar OC, so that they are preventing most people from carrying for self-defense. The SCOTUS has already determined in Heller that the right to self-defense is fundamental, so that states (thanks, MacDonald!) must now allow some form of carry for SD, barring clear reason that a given individual is not allowed to carry, or that carry in a "sensitive area" is not allowed.

To rule otherwise would require a fundamental reversal of Heller...which is what the antis will hope for (and likely get) if we lose a conservative Justice, or Kennedy.You may want to re-read Breyer's dissent in Heller. He used standard Brady stats on how much "gun crime" there is, and the "of course" assumption that outlawing guns = no guns = no gun crime to conclude such laws advance the "compelling government interest" of public safety.

Rulings do not require logic or data; assumptions will do.

That is why some folks are hopeful about the recent SCOTUS ruling that said that CA minors could NOT be prevented from buying violent video games, because there was no scientific concensus that playing those games was harmful to kids. If the SCOTUS adopts that reasoning in gun cases, then gun control laws cannot be held consistent with public safety unless there is "consensus" that limiting guns as per a given law (or limiting guns generally) improves public safety.

I think quoting the whole context of what I wrote would have addressed your objection, don't you?

"It's just as likely that the court will never hear or decide gainfully on a CCW case because there is no special virtue to concealment protected by the second amendment.

All states may be required against their "states rights" to permit 'open carry,' but nothing in the second amendment protects a right to carry a concealed weapon."

Also I think you may also have misunderstood the Brown v EMA case and the court's decision. You've sort of got it backwards, actually.

The court decided that video games were protected speech under the first Amendment and declined to consider whether or not they were "harmful to children" or any other similar consideration or consensus.

On the contrary, as you can see in the opinion, the court rather made a point of eschewing "consensus" or considerations like "public good."

Here's what I'm talking about, the holding in the ruling, from your link:

Video games qualify for First Amendment protection. Like protected books, plays, and movies, they communicate ideas through familiar literary devices and features distinctive to the medium. And “the basic principles of freedom of speech . . . do not vary” with a new and different communication medium. Joseph Burstyn, Inc. v. Wil-son, 343 U. S. 495, 503. The most basic principle—that government lacks the power to restrict expression because of its message, ideas,subject matter, or content, Ashcroft v. American Civil Liberties Union, 535 U. S. 564, 573—is subject to a few limited exceptions for historically unprotected speech, such as obscenity, incitement, and fighting words. But a legislature cannot create new categories of unprotected speech simply by weighing the value of a particular category against its social costs and then punishing it if it fails the test. See United States v. Stevens, 559 U. S. ___, ___.


ETA: I can see how later on when the court brings up the lack of evidence that violent games cause kids to be violent that it might be construed, outside its full context, as a rationale, but it is not. The opinion is complex and subtle, and that part of the holding sets up the significant part that follows, that "Since California has declined to restrict those other media, e.g., Saturday morning cartoons, its video-game regulation is wildly underinclusive, raising serious doubts about whether the State is pursuing the interest it invokes or is instead disfavoring a particular speaker or viewpoint."

I hope that clears things up!
 
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posted by Loosehorse:
You may want to re-read Breyer's dissent in Heller. He used standard Brady stats on how much "gun crime" there is, and the "of course" assumption that outlawing guns = no guns = no gun crime to conclude such laws advance the "compelling government interest" of public safety.

Normally I'm impressed by the opinions of the justices on the Supreme Court but the dissenting opinion on the Heller case was the dumbest bunch of drivel I've ever read. They spent paragraphs sighting historical documents to "sound" smart then they would say it didn't really apply to the point they were making then they wouldn't provide any documentation for the point they actually WERE making. The arguments in the dissenting opinion had NO basis in history or fact but were twisted to try to fit the ideology of the gun grabbers. I laughed out loud several times reading it.
 
Breyer's dissent was a hoot; As I read it, I was wondering if Breyer was beginning to show signs of age-related mental difficulties.

I wish Alan Gura all the best, knowing that he'll win some and he'll lose some, but that he will always keep trying.

As far as reversals of Heller and McDonald, I am not too worried. These decisions are fairly recent and very far-reaching. Heller determined the Second Amendment guaranteed an individual right and McDonald said the Second Amendment was binding on the states. This requires an opponent to argue against a now-established civil right or to argue the Fourteenth Amendment does not cover products that clearly do move in interstate commerce and citizens who travel freely from state to state. The Justices themselves are not prone to overruling themselves, especially on recent decisions, as it brings their indpendence, integrity and wisdom into question.

Unfortunately for both sides, the Second Amendment does not address how the people may keep and bear arms, it just says their right to do it shall not be infringed. However, all sorts of infringements have been tolerated by the Supreme Court, including Jim Crow laws. Some of the state constitutions clearly say the state government does have the right to regulate the carrying and use of weapons in that state.

It seems to me that a case based on the Tenth Amendment would have to be made, saying the Second Amendment recognized that the right to keep and bear arms is reserved to the people, not the states. This would mean those articles in the state constitutions contravene the federal Constitution and, as such, are null and void; the states have no authority to regulate Second Amendment rights. Good luck getting that one before the court and arguing against 50 state attorneys general and a huge body of law and prior court decisions.
 
It's just as likely that the court will never hear or decide gainfully on a CCW case because there is no special virtue to concealment protected by the second amendment.

I think you're missing a very important part of this is, which is that NYS forbids a person from OWNING a handgun, unless they have a CCW. Not even locked up, unloaded and disassembled, not even if you inherited it from your grandpa, not under any circumstances. So it's not, in fact, a concealed weapons permit. It is a permit to own a handgun (and colloquially referred to as a "handgun permit", even by officials). Indeed, one of the easiest types of handgun permits to get here is a premises-only permit, which means you can't take the gun out of your home or place of business... it beats me how that makes it a CARRY permit at all.

Also, I would argue (as some people in this thread have) that not being allowed to carry concealed (even if open carry is allowed) is an unreasonable impediment to a person's ability to exercise their right to defend themselves outside their home.
 
The simple remedy for that is to overturn the provision in new York requiring all gun owners to have a ccw, or else force new York to become shall issue.

As for the second part, you and many other people might indeed argue that, but I have the gravest doubts you'll be successful.
 
I think you're missing a very important part of this is, which is that NYS forbids a person from OWNING a handgun, unless they have a CCW.

I think you are wrong about ny law. You do not need a ccw

The real Constitutional question has nothing to do with the Second Amendment.
The question is whether a Constitutional right can be limited at the discretion of a government official.

For example:

"Miss so and so, please explain to me why you think you need an abortion."
"Mister so and so, please explain to me why you think you need a lawyer"
 
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I was giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.

On consideration I suspect his premise is as flawed as his conclusions.
 
I find it funny that the generalization is that "liberal" people are so up-tight about freedoms related to guns.

Well, if it looks like a duck...............

RSNN0414A_227492a.jpg
 
All states may be required against their "states rights" to permit 'open carry,' but nothing in the second amendment protects a right to carry a concealed weapon.

I was unaware that the Second Amendment made a distinction between open and concealed. Last time I read the sentence, it simply said "keep and bear arms."

Perhaps I am missing something. Why would the 2A only protect open carry? Did the word "bear" in 1791 only imply to "bear openly?"

I don't believe for a moment that any majority in the supreme court would rule that the second amendment protects bringing powerful and deadly weapons to meetings with the president, and therefore it is impossible that the supreme court would rule that all restrictions on the carry of arms are protected.

If some restrictions are permitted, then the door is open for restrictions on concealed carry, carry in court rooms, etc etc.
I don't think many people would argue that you could bring a gun into a meeting with the President in the oval office. The Supreme Court was very clear that the ruling did not give us the right to carry a gun anywhere, in any manner whatsoever.

Just like the SCOTUS did with the 1A and 4A, over the next few decades the Court will decide exactly what the extent of 2A protection is. After a body of cases, we now where where and when we can exercise our free speech rights, and where and when we have a right to privacy free from unreasonably search and seizure.
 
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The fact that it doesn't make a distinction is what dooms the prospects of a "right to concealed carry." Being able to carry arms openly unambiguously fulfills the right to keep and bear arms protected by the second amendment, whether or not you can conceal them is extraneous and unrelated to the second amendment.

The 2A is not a license for people to do anything they want with weapons, it is a guarantee that they can keep and bear them.
 
Can you imagine the courage it would have taken a Cathy Seibel to rule otherwise? She would have been unwelcome at her own friends' Christmas parties. This decision was made before the case was submitted. That's the problem, these judges are the product of that government school system that a previous poster mentioned and a corrupt political system that believes they are the top of the pyramid, and not the people. It will not change until we demand change.
 
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