Alittle help from the service rifle community please...

[mtlucas0311]

I know that most service rifle shooters handload their own ammo. With that in mind, I'm buying a Lee challenger single stage press kit for my WOA and WOP service and match rifles. What type of dies do you guys use? I am fairly certain that I want full length, carbide dies; but I also see some that seem to be specific to "match" ammo from Redding and RCBS. I'm looking at the 5.56/.223 dies. Thanks, Mike.

 

[Howard Roark]

Redding dies are pretty much the best there is out there. I would not spend the extra money on competition sizing dies with removable neck inserts for an AR. John uses the Wylde chamber so there is no need for small base type sizing dies. Small base dies will only over work your brass. The competition seating dies are another issue. You will most likely be seating two or more different bullets. With the competition die that has the scale on it you can repeat your seating depth for several bullets easily.

That said I've been using standard Lee dies for ten years. I accuired several seating dies so I set one up for every bullet I load and leave it on the turret press.

Full length carbide and a competiton seater and you will be good to go. Its a service rifle not a long range prone gun.

 

[mtlucas0311]

Thanks for the info Howard, that's exactly what I wanted to know. I keep seeing "sets" of dies that include a full length die and a neck sizing die, does the neck sizing die do something that the full length doesn't? Doesn't the full length die size the entire case?

 

[Maj Dad]

You will pretty much need to full-length resize for any autoloader. There may be some Shootist Monks that do incantations over their chambers & brass, but we of the mortal ilk and chamber dimensions have to worry about feeding and chambering. A lot of the guys use small base dies, but I have never had a problem with my M1s or my M14 (or my fun-gun CAR) using standard dies (and my best Garand is absolute minimum chamber length/headspace). I am not a Camp Perry shooter, but I started high power matches in the 70s and have been around the block forty-seven times now, by my count...

 

[Howard Roark]

The sets you are refering to have a neck sizing die that only sizes the neck and the full length die only sizes the body and not the neck.

The neck sizing dies usually have a removeable bushing that sizes the neck only. By measuring the fired case and getting the appropriate sized bushing the neck tension on the bullet can be controled. This is overkill on a SR or MR.

The reason sets come with both dies is that for a bolt gun the case can be neck sized and loaded two or three times before it needs to be full length sized. This prolongs brass life by working it as little as possible and allows very precise control of neck tension.

For my bolt guns I buy a "S" type full length sizing die that sizes the entire case and has the removeable bushing neck. I get the competition seating die because it is easily repeatable. This is for bolt guns only.

 

[shooterer]

love Lee

I use the LEE "Pace Setter" dies and they work fine.

1x Remington brass
7 1/2 primers
24 gr Reloader 15
75 gr Hornady HPBT

It works for me (on everything)

Jim

 

[P-32]

I have 2 WOP uppers I use to shoot High Power with. 1 upper is about due for a re-barrel. The upper still shoots but the 80gr SMK's are getting pretty long.

I use a Hornaday match bushing die. The bushing is used to set neck tension which holds the bullet. It has worked well for me and there is no doubt if I don't shoot an X every time it's not the ammo or the rifle.

For the seating die I use a Forster Ultra Match seating die. The Redding is simular but there has been plenty of discussion in the past on the National Match reloading section. It appears the Redding match seating won't take the repeated seating of compressed loads. If you are loading 77's and 80 gr SMK's on Varget or Reloder 15 you will be seating compressed loads every time. The Forster Ultra Match seating die is built like a tank and IMHO works very well.

As a tip, the best money I've spent so far is a primer pocket uniformer.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I'd vote for the RCBS FL X-die for sizing - they really do work, a couple of good thread references on the Nat'l Match forum. For seating, the Forster or Redding.

You won't be getting carbide in rifle sets - not needed anyway but a good lube (Imperial or wire pull lube are my preferences) is.
/Bryan

ETA: I agree about pocket uniforming - I use the Sincleair cutter and seat primers by hand with the RCBS gizmo.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

As far as bullets and brass and powder you have many choices and alot of them work very well. the only suggestion I have on the above is use what has been proved to be a winner and you have many, many choices and do not try to reinvent the wheel!

now as far as dies every one I know uses full length dies. now as far as what you do a old saying goes buy once cry once. why buy standard dies when for only a couple of dollars more you can get a good set of competition ones.
All brass is not created equal so I prefer the redding S die for resizing and do it for the following reasons. first off I can play with neck tension to set my loads to get certain pressures. also you should be mesuring the thickness of your neck cases as not all of them will be the same between manf's so by using this die you can be sure to be able to keep a tension that you want from round to round no matter what. good quality you will never be sorry for buying. it the coated bushing also.

the seating die I use is a forster competition die. it works great and WILL not crack like the redding seating dies do. after many friends sending back their redding seating dies for cone cracks just to find out a few loads later its cracked again talked to the reps in person at the shot show for two years straight about changing the design. the fix they suggested is not to do that.
as the cone is a very hard heat treated item and when using long range type of single loading bullets set so it touches into or just off the lands it will crack.

the other items you can get away with untill you decide you want to spend more money but presses and the such you have many choices. since you have spent some long dollars on John's uppers you might consider some other things also.
I use either Lapua or japanese military brass as they are like the same with the primer holes with nice round holes and not punched. buy in large lots of several thousand so you always have more than enough to seperate by how much they weigh. they are easier to find and know they are yours and that way you have less chance of mixing your lake city with someone elses. it even works on rattle battle days. how many folks do you know who uses japanese headstamps? you more than likely will not find them but lupuas work great for that also.
I use a giraud case trimmer and use it on every loading before I weigh and prime. easy and fast. also i do use the hand primer as you always know you have it right and you can feel for loose primer pockets.

I also use a wilson case gage on every piece of brass to make sure its right. easy simple step before priming. you will find a few that made it threw the dies that do not fit. it also helps find the ones that have burrs from the extractor so you can smooth them out for exact proper function.

now for over board I also use a sinclair arbor press when I am out working on loads or travelling away from home (perry). I have a set of wilson dies for every rifle set for the length in each rifles throat. I always will take on trips like above extra long range rounds loaded long so I am able to set them if needed.
those and a scale in a small box gives me a really great back up in a emergency and it usually is not mine. I have seen more than one person go from a colder climit or elevation to perry have ammunition problems. its easy to reload a few rounds for the next day if needed.
also lets you work on loads right on the range when testing.

 

[paul s]

I use plain old RCBS full length dies, One thing you have to remember about Hi-Power, It ain't benchrest!

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

thank GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so how many regionals and state championship matches have you won in highpower? so paul what is your distinguised marksman #.
A few of us here use real names so folks can always see who we are and can find out most anything they want to see if we know what we are talking about.

now I feel my ammunition is almost as good as I can make it and it gets me more cleans on a 200 yard slow prone target in a match than not. even if I have never cleaned a 600 yard target I have many 198's and a few 199's at 600 yards. but that darn wind you know.

Hey PAULy since you just butted in here with a post that does not promote the post are you a TROLL nice just jump in a post with snide comments with out posting any facts and only 4 post.

I will request you the troll be banned unless you contribute and not post items and snide comments without facts.

 

[rskent]

Mtlucas0311
I have been fairly successful using Lee dies. I have been using them for quite a few years now. Sub MOA rounds are not really a problem with Lee equipment. There are certainly better choices out there, but I seem to spend a lot more time working on my positions and dry fire practicing than on loading ammo. Quality ammunition is important. But at my level, it’s more about a good hold and keeping my head together than ammo.
Jon
You clearly shoot high master. Maybe you could do us a favor and start a thread on what you think are the greatest challenges of shooting highpower, and your approach to solving them. Us lowly experts can use all the help we can get.
Thanks
Steve

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

steve
I appoligize for the out burst but alot of folks like to knock the high powder shooters.
There are a whole lot of better shooters out in the highpower community and I do pay my repects to them for what they have done. most of them are very nice folks with many more than willing to help.

you are doing the right thing with practice first. I layed off of matches so far in 2009 so I could put my mind into trying to set myself up to be able to retire from the fed govt. now that is behind me and I now have time to rework on things.

some of my ideals may seem strange to others but they work for me. I believe most of it stems from not really having anything to learn from and what I mean by that is that there were no real books, videos or internet. my learning came from trial and error back in the 80's with the m1a rifles.
Now since I have had a short time away from it I have had a little time to reflect what I want to work on and how to do it. The biggest thing first for me is by starting all over with the basics. Why do this? I feel it is very basic and I will tell you my practices and what I look for and try to achieve out of them and how I do that.

My first plan is to get a good zero in prone position with out working on my position too much since the prone position can really be worked on the least to achieve the most and its more easiely tuned. My first goal is the sitting position and to really spend time on it. now that I have been out of it a short time I can rebuild my muscle memory over from the start to rid myself of any bad habits like position and the such. I will then after I have more of my timing down turn to and start off hand into my practices.

My sitting practice will go like this: No rapid fire to start but many slow fire while building my positions as if you can not shoot X's slow fire you will not do it in rapid fire. you need to walk before you run. Then I will pratice 2 & 2's which will begin the timing aspects by getting slow deliberate two good shots and a FAST clean mag change followed by two good slow follow up shots. The point to that is if you have a close to perfect NPA and a great position the shots will come fast and be very repeatible saving time in the long run.

After I have perfected that to my satisfaction then I will start on my timing. I am in no rush to get to 60 seconds untill it is time. it will go like this at that point, two shots, mag change follwed by eight shots all fired slow and deliberatly for center shots.
After muscle memory sets in you begin to pick up speed and let it come natually untill you have it down.
you may be able to get it down into the low to middle 40 second range with cleans and then start putting in things like checking the target for your first two shots while doing the mag change or wind pickups or let offs. and a big part in knowing when the time starts you do not have to live with what ever position you have put your self in and if you find your npa off and have to steer the rifle back into the middle you have the time without panic to quickly adjust it and continue your center shots.

if shooting a match is 90% mental and 10% physical you better have the positions down.

My advice for the begining shooter is this. the only difference between my score and yours is I just made fewer mistakes. the mental part of the game is great and a good example of it is in slow prone like at 200 yards.
you have to semi break position and rebuild it somewhat on every shot. if you check everything and know it is perfect before the shot you will get great results. you are comfy and your npa is perfect and you break a clean shot you WILL know where it went. I use that as a example because at two hundred you do not have wind or light having great effects on the outcome.

I will stop here as I could actually go into every little aspect of the above but I am not writting a book.

if you like this just let me know what you would like and I would be more than willing to give you my input. there are many ways to get to your goals and these are just mine.

 

[TimRB]

I think the point Paul was making is that high power shooting, especially at 200 and 300, doesn't require the best possible ammo. That sounds strange, I know. But at the shorter ranges the accuracy requirements are low enough that to take all the extra measures (like trickling charges, weighing cases, neck turning, etc.) is, for the most part, a waste of time.

Follow the standard procedures meticulously, sure. But don't sweat the small stuff. Many shooters do take some heroic measures for their 600 yard ammo, if for no other reason than to get the psychological boost of knowing for certain that YOU put that seven there, not your ammo.

Tim

 

[30Cal]

I use a Redding S/B die (tight chamber, otherwise, I'd use FL) a micrometer seating die (which I use because it's quick to dial in). My advice is to find an adequate load and get good with it.

I'm a minimalist at the reloading bench. I do some extra things for safety, but in the accuracy department, if I can't measure a real difference on a target, I'm not going to spend the extra time to do it.

I can't point to any points I've lost in a match due to ammo. Master card and 26pts.

 

[mtlucas0311]

Thanks for all the information guys, I really appreciate all of it. I have to admit that some of what was said was a bit over my current reloading knowledge level. I'm just getting started, so my intent is to develop fundamentally sound loads that will allow me to get the most out of my rifles that John put together for me. I'm not ready to try and make some of the fine tuned loads that you guys are capable of producing, changing neck tension, and shoulders and using the offset shell holder sets I've seen. But I do want to buy the best quality dies I can, so that when I do get some notches on my belt I can start getting into the finer points. I posted here because I'm really only interested in advice from guys who know what the grass smells like at Perry, and have been irritated by a cease fire because some clown drove his boat into the impact area.

My need to start reloading comes from necessity, I shot a local rifle match the other weekend and although I took 2nd place (out of 6 total shooters!), my group for the 200yd prone slow fire was somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 to 5 inches. I'm new to reloading, but I'm not new to shooting. I started shooting bulls-eye pistol with my dad in my early to mid teens and made my first trip to Perry at 18. I did pretty good and even won a few matches. Came close to even picking up distinguished points as a teenager. I joined the Marines at 24 (old, I know) and got my first taste of service rifle there, and earned a secondary MOS as a marksmanship instructor. Now I've been out a few years but really wanted to shoot service rifle some more. So when I shot that 5 inch group I knew I needed to hand load (I shot 69 gr PRVI Partisan "match" loads for the local match). I normally wouldn't be so quick to blame the ammo, but I KNOW it aint' the rifle, and all my fundamentals felt better than any time I can remember, trigger control was almost perfect (I load a "dummy" round in each of my mags for the slow fire to spot check my trigger control), my NPA was really good, I had a 24 power scope on top of that WOA match rifle so not only could I see the bulls-eye quartered, but I had zero bounce from my heartbeat. And like Jon pointed out, wind isn't really a big concern at 200, and the group was relatively round, not left to right oval; on top of that, wind was about a 5 mph zero value and it was overcast. Besides that, I'm too cheap to spend a buck a round for real match ammo.

So now after I've rambled off my life story, I think the standard FL sizing die (for now), competition seating die from either Redding or Forster and a roll crimping die will get me started. I've acquired 2,000 rounds of once fired WCC and LC NATO headstamp once fired brass for 80 bucks, and somebody gave me 3000 pieces of once fired PRVI 5.56 brass. I bought a thousand SMK's (69 or 75 gr., can't remember) and some reloader 15 and 7 1/2 primers. Hopefully hat will get me going and I'll tighten up those groups to under 2 inches at that 200 yard line. Sound good?

 

[Howard Roark]

Don't use a crimping die of any kind. They deform the bullet.

It sounds like you are on the right track. Your recipe should work fine. I just switched from 77gr SMKs to Hornady 75gr BTHP. They shoot as good if not better for me at the 2&300 yard lines than the SMKs. Midsouth Shooters Supply has them for $10 a box less than the Sierras and you get 600 in a box rather than 500.

You are wise to only listen to seasoned shooters. FWIW:
DR# 1778
Highpower Rifle: High Master
Mid Range: High Master
Long Range: High Master
6 trips to Perry
Don't forget Perry cease fires due to eagles and jet skis and for some reason Viale is always slower than Rodrigues! Good shooting.

 

[mtlucas0311]

Thanks for the tip on the crimping dies (or the exclusion of) and the bullets Howard. I was just looking on Midsouth's website and it looks like they have everything I need, and pretty good prices. I think I'm leaning toward the Forster dies over the Reddings, Forster offers their micrometer style benchrest die and a standard full length sizing die together for 90 bucks. To get the same dies from Redding I'd have to buy them separately and spend another 25 bucks. It sounds like Jon has some experience with the Forsters being a little tougher with the heavier bullets too. Not too bad all together, the total is only $210 with a crimp remover/reamer and the Lee case length gauge. I should make that back in the first 500 rounds, thanks again to every one who took the time to share their thoughts, Mike.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

30 cal.
with only one leg left I hope to see you up on the stage this year and I will be standing and clapping loud for you while you get awarded your distinuished medal.

I have not been to perry since 06 but I will be there in 2010 for sure. already making my plans. lets all meet one evening by the canon or tank or behind the church or something.
I will be staying on base in a hut most likely.

howard is correct on all of those things and either buller should serve you fine. If your state team has a person that purchases bullets or someone they go threw alot of times they can hook you up with team discounts or you can go in and buy some on a drop shipment. same goes for powder.
good luck

 

[dzelenka]

Hate to resurrect an old thread, but I just noticed it and was a bit surprised by Jon's reaction to a very commonly heard comment. Highpower isn't benchrest. As Jon says, "Thank God". Jon puts more effort than most into his loading for highpower. I applaud him, but you can get away with a bit less.

My 600 yd loads are Lapua brass sized in a Forster full length die and trimmed on a Giraud. They are not weighed or sorted. Charges are weighed on an RCBS Chargemaster, and bullets are seated with a Forster Ultra BR seater. They will hold 1/2 MOA elevation at 300 yds.

For short line ammo (200 and 300 yd), I do a whole lot less. LC brass, not sorted by year or weight, sized either commercially by Dick Whiting or in my Forster FL die. Trimmed, hand primed and fed into a Dillon for powder and bullets. Powder is charged with a case activated RCBS Uniflow and bullets are seated with a Redding BR seater (with fingers crossed that it won't crack). From a bench with a scope, 10 shot groups run around .6" - .75" at 100 yds.

The above will supply you with adequately accurate ammo for XTC or mid range shooting.

Dan