All around rifle...PEASE HELP

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readyme

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I am searching for my first rifle...and I want one that covers as many bases as possible.
The AR format seems to rule the modern rifle scene, but I think the .223 is just too small for an all around rifle. My buddy loves his AR-15, but I personally think the .223 is simply not enough power for people, deer, and paper.

I am new to rifles, so I know pretty much nothing going into this.

My gut says I should find a .308 rifle. There are AR's and M1A's...and I am sure there are others as well.

Please share your thoughts and ideas.
 
You're leaving it WAAAY too wide open! :eek:

We can talk you into almost anything, but we have got to know what you might intend to use your rifle for.

.308 IS a wonderful, multi-use caliber. The AR platform is a great one to build on, but maybe not so useful in 5.56 if any of your possible uses involve creatures larger than groundhogs.

See...you need at least three rifles...

(this is how it begins) :D
 
You said animals, people, and paper.

Ok. What sort of animals? If it's nothing much bigger than deer, then .308 may not be necessary, depending on the range you plan to be hunting at. How good a shot are you?

For people, well... we're more fragile than deer, and in a defense situation, you might want to think about penetration and the available backstops in your home. .308 might be overkill for that too (though most intermediate and full size rifle cartridges carry this risk with housing materials like drywall).

For paper, do you mean you want to shoot reasonable groups on range days when you practice with your "all around rifle," or do you mean you want to use this weapon to shoot competitively in matches?

For a durable gun that fires an intermediate cartridge larger than .223, you might consider an SKS. It is inexpensive. It is tough and reliable, so you can toss it in your truck/trunk and remain confident that it will function properly in the field. It fires easily available ammo (7.62x39) from a fixed 10rd magazine. It has been proven to be capable of taking down deer and feral hogs. It was designed to take down people. In the hands of most shooters, it's better on paper than an AK-style rifle.
 
Abby-
I know it is open...that is my problem. I am thinking the 308 is the round (very versitile).
Now about the platform:
AR - (major downfall is the gas operation i.e. dirty and prone to failure?)
AK - (know nothing about other than hearing that it is reliable as "rain in Seattle", but inacurate as all getout)
M1A - (older design but still in use in the military)

Any others?

Ready-
I think the Garand is pretty cool, but not an all around rifle. Pretty big and heavy...and I think there have been some advancments in technology since that was cutting edge.
 
Spiroxlii
The SKS sounds like a winner....one problem. Is there a version that has removable magazines? Not a big fan of the strip fed design.
Thanks for all the info, that is great.
 
I have handled rifles in .223, and I own two in 7.62x39. I also own several rifles that fire full size rifle cartridges, including one chambered in .308/7.62NATO.

"All around" may mean something different to you than it means to me, but when I think about reaching for an "all around" rifle, I think of something that fires an intermediate cartridge, and when I think about which intermediate cartridge I prefer, I tend to agree with you in thinking that .223 isn't my favorite. That's why I recommended the SKS, which fires 7.62x39.

.308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO is good for many things. If it seems like the right cartridge for YOUR definition of "all around" use, then go for it. Ultimately, you're the one who has to be happy with what you shoot. Not me or anybody else.
 
Patriot-Brewer
My gut says 308 and something about the M14 is just amazing.
What is the LRB?
I would like to keep it around $1000...not sure what that gets me though.

THANK YOU all for the great responses...all of this info at my fingertips in about 10 minutes...I couldn't ask for more.
 
readyme,

There ARE SKS rifles that came from the factory to accept detachable mags (AK47 mags, if I remember correctly). They are scarce, though.

Most of the SKS carbines on the market have the fixed magazine, which I think is fine, since even the best detachable mags can develop problems that the fixed mag is not likely to have. Loading from stripper clips isn't hard once you get used to it, and I think it's a small tradeoff to make for what the SKS has to offer.

If you're determined to use a detachable mag, don't buy junk. The only aftermarket detachable mags that have worked reliably in my SKS are the ones made by Tapco. There's another brand that I want to try too, but I won't report on them until I've tried them.
 
Oh... and if you're prepared to spend $1000, then maybe an M1A/M14 is right for you, though an M1A will cost you a lot more than that in the end. An SKS should run you no more than $300 in great shape, and I have never paid more than $200 for one.
 
30-30 lever gun. It is a great all-around gun for most any cirumstance.
 
readyme said:
The AR format seems to rule the modern rifle scene, but I think the .223 is just too small for an all around rifle. My buddy loves his AR-15, but I personally think the .223 is simply not enough power for people, deer, and paper.
Click to expand...

First rifle, right? So you have an educated opinion about calibers? :scrutiny:

Okay. Let's look at the scrawny 5.56x45 -- still in use by our troops, still putting opposition forces down, still putting lots of holes through paper, so long as you can afford to shoot and maintain it.

Can you take a deer in WA with a sub-.30 caliber round? I know a lot of states have game laws where it has to be .30/6MM, or better. But if you had to, could you? With proper shot placement, the most likely answer is yes.

Your first rifle should ideally be the one that you learn marksmanship on, which doesn't have to be 7.62x51 -- that's some expensive learning. If you're dead set on one rifle, and one rifle alone, the AR is a killer platform, with its switchable uppers. Or, you could drop $180 on a Ciener (sp.?) .22 conversion and bust caps through an AR for pennies, even if it isn't quite as accurate as a dedicated upper.

ARs do run with a dirty system, those that aren't piston-driven, but piston systems tend to introduce some wiggle and flex into the firearm. POF uppers might have reduced this somewhat, but the tendency is there. Really, a battle rifle is a minute-of-chest proposition, so I wouldn't sweat minute accuracy issues. AK platforms have sent millions of people to their maker on every continent -- ask them what they think.

Also, ARs in 5.56 use a smaller and lighter projectile -- not a small thing if you happen to ever have to carry a substantial amount of it around. Bigger cartridge, more weight -- smaller cartridge, less, with an even greater number of rounds. Just something to think about.

I'm a firm believer in 5.45, myself. The round is absurdly cheap, still readily available as surplus, available commercially, and battle-proven. AK-74s will run under just about any condition, and represent a substantial weight savings over equivalent AR and AK-47 systems, given ammo and magazine weight.
 
takhtakaal makes a good point. 7.62x51/.308 Win ammo is more expensive than almost any of the common intermediate rifle cartridges like 7.62x39, 5.56x45/.223 Rem, and 5.45x39.

And if it's your first rifle, you should be shooting a lot to practice. Ammunition cost is one of the things that is going to control how often you can shoot more than anything else.
 
OK, you mentioned Deer....

People, And Paper.

If you're going to hunt big game in Washington, the .223 is not legal. You also won't find all that many AR/M14/Garand platforms in Deer hunter's hands around the northwest. .308, 30-06 or not. I do occasionally pack a 9 pound hunting rifle but it is not my primary game getter.

You don't get to shoot People!

That leaves Deer and or Paper. I've been reloading for some 25 years. Shooting and Hunting for some 31 years. I don't know a hunter that doesn't own a lever action rifle in a hunting caliber. No, I'm not talking a .22 plinker, but something like a 30-30 or 35rem. You should be able to pick a used one up for less than $300. If you still want to punch paper at distance, a bolt action rifle in .243win or 25-06 will reach out just as far and possibly shoot better groups on paper than an AR .223/.308 and is still legal to hunt Deer with here in the Great North Wet. So you end up with one to hunt the brush, and the other as a dual purpose rifle.

And if you are patient with your purchases, you might just be able to get them both, for under $1,000.

-Steve
 
SKS would be ideal .. Stripper clips are EASY and cheap .. they are much better than carrying and loading magazines .. Not to mention faster
 
After you take a serious look at the M1 Garand again...:)

M1A - Will break your $1K budget - but an awesome rifle.

Saiga .308 - You will likeee. The magazines are plastic and hard to find, but the rifle is perfect for your description.

You did not mention competitive shooting at paper. In which case we would be back to the Garand, M1A or poodle-shooter.
 
So you have $1000 set aside for a rifle. How much money do you have set aside for the ammo to feed it? (rhetorical obviously)
 
If this is your first rifle I would recommend a 22 LR. Something like a Ruger 10 22 or a Marlin 60. Once you get you marksmanship skills down, you can look at a larger caliber. There is very little down side to this because you can always use the 22 for economical practice.
 
Go to a pawn shop and acquire a Marlin 60, usually $65-75, and buy two bulk packs (550 count) at Wallie World then practice. Once you feel good with the .22 lr then move up to a Rem 700 or CZ in .308. You will learn life long skills with the .22, like squeezing the trigger evenly, not putting to much finger on the trigger, and breathing. You can easily acquire both rifles, and they will give you diversity in game choice for under $1000.
 
Thank you for bringing to the forefront the most expensive part of owning a gun...rounds.
I am looking at starting to do reloading, so that should help a little, but rounds still cost a fortune. I have not put in enough research into the cost of the different calibers....looks like a field trip to the shop to price rounds, and see what it will really cost to get the practice I need.
I have been shooting pistols for a little while, so I am hoping that some of that will carry over (steady hands and hand eye coordination).
To be honest, I do not have $1000 set aside for a rifle...I simply figured that is what it would cost, so I threw out that number to get the most options as possible.
My wife has no qualms about saying that I am cheap, so getting the most bang for the buck is my biggest priority.
What I talked about uses, I should have been clearer. I will say that 98% non-competative shooting paper, 1.9% shooting deer, and the 0.1% chance that it will get used for defense (that is what pistols are for).
Again, thanks for the input.
 
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