All handgunners, please take this poll - I have a theory on point shooting...

Which category do you fall into? (Read the definition of point-shooting below first)

  • I can point-shoot reasonably well (without massive training), and freehand sketch at least adequatel

    Votes: 80 31.1%

  • I can point-shoot reasonably well (without massive training), and couldn't freehand sketch to save m

    Votes: 98 38.1%

  • I can NOT point-shoot reasonably well (without massive training), and freehand sketch at least adequ

    Votes: 5 1.9%

  • I can NOT point-shoot reasonably well (without massive training), and couldn't freehand sketch to sa

    Votes: 23 8.9%

  • I haven't done enough point-shooting to know.

    Votes: 51 19.8%
  • Total voters
    257
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J

Jim March

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I have a theory that the ability to shoot without sights, without even lining the gun up at eye level, is somehow tied to the ability to freehand sketch.

If I'm right, some new shooters will know ahead of time whether or not they should get serious about playing with point shooting.

We know that some people can point-shoot. But we also have people like Cooper advocating sighted fire as the sole training regimen, to increase overall hit rates across entire police departments and the like.

I suspect that both camps are right, in that there are people who were just "born to point shoot well" at short fast ranges at least, and some who should not under any circumstances try. Even with a lot of training to compensate, these latter folks will "fall apart" in a real fight (per Cooper et al). I consider myself in this latter group - and I also can't freehand draw. The natural point shooters I've met *can* - one was a published cartoonist.

So please, take the poll - EVERYbody can answer this question. If everybody reading this does so, we'll have moderately scientific data on the subject.

NOTE: "a "flash sight picture" is different - this is when the gun is brought to eye level, but the gun itself (typically an auto) is used as a single large crude (but fast) sight. This is NOT what I'm talking about for purposes of this poll.
 
Interesting idea. I can't point shoot worth diddly - heck, I'm not really all that great a shot with sites, mediocre at best, and I can't draw worth a dang either.
 
I have always been pretty decent at point shooting but I can't free hand sketch at all!

I can't draw, paint and I have bad handwriting but I have better than average hand/eye coordination. I am good at video games, shooting, most sports, foosball, pinball, ping pong, and dealing with delicate intricate things.

Very interesting question!
 
I think you may be onto something here, Jim.

I've done both reasonable well since I was a young lad.
 
Hmm, both are left brain skills?

I took a sketch class in college. I remember the instructor telling us not to look at the paper when we drew, to look at the object instead. However, I never did well in that class. I do point shoot reasonably better than I can sketch.
 
Scientific...? Well..... :rolleyes:

I can point shoot well -- depending on the gun. If it's one I naturally point well with, I point shoot well with it. How do I determine if it points well for me? I point it at a target that's in my peripheral vision area with the gun way to my side and while looking to the side. Then, without moving the gun, I move my head to see where the sights are pointing. If they're on target, chances are very good that I will point shoot that gun well. Glocks don't point well for me, BTW.

I'm fairly good at freehand sketching mechanical and architectural subjects but I have to work at getting proportions of people, animals, etc., right. However, I'm sure that drafting and designing mechanical components has a lot to do with that.
 
I can rub my belly and shoot at the same time--that count ? :D

I point shoot very very well,especially with guns that "fit" me. Understand tho' part of this comes from being taught to shoot anything without sights...Visualization mixed with Zen. " I was learnt this way". I can sketch those things I worked around...designs and such, did well in Mechanical drawing.

With skool I've allowed my penmanship, spelling and vocab to slide. Symbols, Abbreviations and Acronyms...+ spellcheck and word processing tools...Lets just say my targets are easier to read than my handwriting :D

Jim-where on earth did this theory come from?...;)
 
A select few have the ability to use the Force. I for one am not a Jedi Knight unfortunately.
 
Well, it's like this: some people seem to be able to point-shoot the first time they pick up a gun, and some can't no matter how long they've been shooting.

Cooper and company believe that "natural point shooters" are so rare, it shouldn't be taught en mass because a NON-natural will revert to blasting rounds all over the geography under stress.

There has to be some way of predicting who might be such a "natural".

As stated, I can't draw or point-shoot worth a dang. I have met several people now who can point-shoot, and one was a published cartoonist. I started asking people who can point-shoot how well they draw...but I was never able to find enough point-shooters to nail this suspected link down.

The subject sorta came up over in strategy/tactics in a discussion of what cross-dominant (left eye dominant but right handed) people should do in terms of handgun drill. As such a type myself, I discussed my adaptations and one possible answer IS point-shooting - but Cooper's reasoning is pretty solid on trying to teach point-firing to a non-natural.

That thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31739

I keep coming back to the example of FBI agent and trickshooter Jelly Brice(sp?) of the pre-WW2 period. He was personally a superb combat handgunner, quite possibly the best that ever lived...and it was all point-shooting. BUT he was then asked to teach his technique to other agents and...well, "disaster" doesn't even begin. His "FBI crouch" probably killed more FBI agents than we can even count, and has long since been abandoned.

Clearly, there was something physically *different* about Brice that can't translate well into something "normal people" can do. Which is a lot different from the Cooper school, or modern Iscoceles or similar.

Follow? There's something innate going on that can't be taught.

Anyways. If it could be identified and predicted, we could better tailor techniques and instruction to individual shooters.

So is there something to this link?

As I'm writing this, there are 52 replies to the poll questions. NOT ONE IS A NUMBER THREE (can't point-shoot, can freehand sketch). I want to see at least 100 more answers (far more if we can get 'em) but guys, what we've got so far is...VERY interesting. Based on #1 and #2, clearly the link isn't "universal".

But...we've got a problem, because nowhere near enough non-point-shooters are chiming in and admitting such, so we're getting skewed numbers. The thread's been looked at 256 times. I *could* be wrong, but every source I've looked at suggests that the number of "natural point shooters" is very low.

So come on, guys, 'fess up: if you can't point-shoot worth a dang, chime in.
 
Can I skew the thread again-good ;)

About #3...maybe using the mouse and clicking that dot is indication of another problem...( no wonder I can't hit squat)..Hey, no mouse here --got trackball ;)

Theories, Jim I was kidding you--this is interesting. You want a weird theory? Dead Serious, I was told by an anti, that breast feeding was the reason why people liked firearms, weapons and such. :scrutiny: I changed schools next semester. I had a great reply to her theory... you all would have been proud of me. ;)
 
Jim, a definition of what good point shooting is might help. The last time I tried it I did fairly well by my standards, but I have no idea of what you would consider good.
 
I've always been a very good point shooter. I've become much better and quicker the last few years by playing with the CTC laser grips and with really good Airsoft handguns. With the Airsoft guns I can now throw soda cans in the air and hit them a few times before they land. I do need to be able to grip the weapon so that my plam is parallel to the bore (so it's really like pointing). I can't sketch people at all, but can draw buildings and other things better than average.

When I was a young man I was a wonderful baseball pitcher - but no curve. I could quite often knock down pigeons and seagulls with a ball or a rock.

Elliot
 
I have never done enough point shooting to tell. I am not even sure I know exactly what point shooting is. I have pointed a gun at something and fired it. I never did good at all. I use the sights all the time with 90% of my concentration and focus on the front sight or I don't hit anything. I was going through a simulator a week or so ago. I spotted the very top of a pepper popper's head at about 20 yards, hit it with no problem. Took one step and saw a popper around a corner at about three yards. I pointed the gun at it and fired two shots that were clean misses; put the front sight on target = no problem. Over the years I have done enough of this to realize that if the muzzle isn't in direct contact with the target, I better use the sights if I want to hit anything. I have even tried shooting shotguns from the hip and can't hit anything. Now maybe there is some technique to point shooting other than what I have been doing; if so, I don't know about it.
I also can't draw at all. I can't even make a good stick man.
 
Point shooting is just hand and eye coordination like that of any sport. Most reasonably fit person can readily learn it.
Sketching or drawing on the other hand is a talent aquired at birth. It can be refined, but seldom learned later in life.
 
I haven't done enough point-shooting to know...

...but I'm going to start now. I assume that point-shooting is when you keep both eyes open, a-la Mel Gibson in "Lethal Weapon" (except for the constant blinking-when-shooting), instead of the traditional close one eye method?

As far as being artistic; I used to think I could create art, and I was interested in drawing but I never really had any talent. I was okay at one time but now I have an Essential Tremor in my left (dominate) hand. That's what the doctor called it, but as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing essential about it! I can barely write my name, but most everything else (including shooting) is unaffected.
 
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