All purpose rifle

[clance]

This subject may have been approach before but I can't find it on this forum.

My interest lays in finding a multi-purpose rifle to fill several roles, most importantly if necessary the defense of my family.

The rifle needs to be light in weight, semi-automatic with a box type magazine. I would prefer to stay away from a direct gas system, opting for a piston or recoil operated system for their reliability.

It needs to be of a intermediate caliber that is capable of accuracy out to a minimum of 300 meters but with sufficient energy to drop a deer size animal at that range or penetrate a block wall or car door with most of it's energy still intact. Like the rifle the ammo needs to be of a weight to allow the carrying of sufficient number of rounds to handle most situations if necessary.

Consideration for readily available ammo and spare parts are of importance as well.


Suggestions???

 

[Mags]

This subject may have been approach before but I can't find it on this forum.

That may be because we don't normally discuss hypothetical situations on this fine forum. But I think your title is misleading and will cause strays off topic.

Maybe it should be "Defensive Rifle". In which case there are quite a few threads on the subject. Most revolve around the AK or AR and turn into a VS thread real quick.

But I will play...

I would prefer to stay away from a direct gas system, opting for a piston or recoil operated system for their reliability.

Ok, maybe I won't play with that statement, looks like you are just trying to pick a fight on the board.

 

[txhoghunter]

Okay why do you need to be punching through a car door at 300m? That is a little further than self defense.....

To down a deer at 300m I would say you are asking for a .308 AR10 platform. The direct gas system really is not unreliable, as our soldiers use them everyday.

However, for home defense I would say get an AR (either direct gas or piston) in 5.56 NATO and an aimpoint or eotech

 

[txhoghunter]

block wall or car door with most of it's energy still intact

Or maybe a .300 win mag or .338 Lapua....you really are asking the wrong questions and I am even doubting the legitimacy of this question

 

[TexasRifleman]

I would prefer to stay away from a direct gas system, opting for a piston or recoil operated system for their reliability.

Personally I think your making a mistake with that statement, but if you really believe it that's fine, the marketing department of many manufacturers is standing by to help you

 

[rcmodel]

opting for a piston or recoil operated system for their reliability.

It's an internet rumor that the AR-15 DI gas system is unreliable.
My 1970 vintage Colt carbine has never ever failed to work in the past 40 years.
Not even once.

If the DI gas system was at all unreliable, we would still not be using it in the U.S. military after all these years either.

I'd venture a guess that in a few years, we will find some of the new piston driven AR's coming out now to be breaking more then the DI original design.

However, were it not for the 300 meter accuracy requirement which would probably require a scope sight & excellent accuracy potential for hunting, you might be in the market for an AK-47.

But since you threw that level of accuracy in, get an AR-15 in 6.8SPC, or .30 Rem-AR caliber.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/RS_30remingtonar_200904/

rc

 

[Smaug]

Lots of pre-conceived notions in your post...

I agree with the earlier post that an all-around rifle needs to be able to punch through car doors and block walls without harming the energy of the round. You're pretty much down to just pirate ship cannons at that point. A gun like this would be OK for fantasy scenarios, but not for much else. I'd think a 22LR would be more practical 99% of the time.

As for an all around rifle, my opinion is that one of these three would be great:


1. Marlin 1894 lever action in 44 Magnum. Good out to 125 yds, and enough juice to kill anything.

2. Marlin 336 lever action in 30-30. Good out to 200 yds. Kicks harder than the 44, from what I've read, but has some more range. Not as much "stopping power" since it is more likely go go right through.

3. Beretta CX4 carbine in 9mm. Probably a 100 yd. gun. Great for home defense, fun at the range, can be had in pistol calibers and uses pistol magazines. Will have an extra few hundred fps with the same ammo compared to a handgun.

 

[GCBurner]

Sounds like the OP is looking for something like the Ruger Ranch Rifle All Weather, in 6.8mm Remington SPC.

 

[Adam123]

That may be because we don't normally discuss hypothetical situations on this fine forum. But I think your title is misleading and will cause strays off topic.

Maybe it should be "Defensive Rifle". In which case there are quite a few threads on the subject. Most revolve around the AK or AR and turn into a VS thread real quick.

But I will play...

Ok, maybe I won't play with that statement, looks like you are just trying to pick a fight on the board.

I see tons of threads with "hypothetical situations". You might want to look up the definitions for the words "hypothetical" and "situation".

Also, I have no idea how you are able to gather that the OP is trying to pick a fight. It seems like you are the one looking for a fight. It looks like he has a certain belief in regards to semi-autos and I wouldn't read much more into it. Furthermore, it never ceases to amaze me how people will incessantly nitpick on this fine forum.

Here's what I gather: He's looking for a rifle and, perhaps, needs a little direction/education. Although, I must admit, I did chuckle a bit when I read the part about punching through brick walls.

 

[Ole Humpback]

My interest lays in finding a multi-purpose rifle to fill several roles, most importantly if necessary the defense of my family.

The rifle needs to be light in weight, semi-automatic with a box type magazine. I would prefer to stay away from a direct gas system, opting for a piston or recoil operated system for their reliability.

It needs to be of a intermediate caliber that is capable of accuracy out to a minimum of 300 meters but with sufficient energy to drop a deer size animal at that range or penetrate a block wall or car door with most of it's energy still intact. Like the rifle the ammo needs to be of a weight to allow the carrying of sufficient number of rounds to handle most situations if necessary.

Consideration for readily available ammo and spare parts are of importance as well.

A Barret Model 82A1 in 416 Barret can fill all those requirements, but weighs 30lbs and is gas operated. For a lighter, punch through car door rifle, maybe a BAR in 338 Win Mag. In reality though, these are some pretty unrealistic demands for a single rifle.

First off, HD generally happens at ranges inside of 15yds (45') and the last thing you want to have happen is that your shot overpenetrates. You don't want to miss and shoot your next door neighbors or hit the guy but blow right through him and the partition wall behind him into your kids room.

As far as I know, the only light weight DBM rifle that would work well for HD is the H&K USC. Its a 10rd gun in 45ACP that is blowback operated. Look for pistol caliber carbines as they more closely fit the use of a "rifle" for HD.

Next, 300m deer kill shot or penetration of a CMU wall/car door to kill someone in an intermediate caliber lightweight semi-auto? A BAR in 30-06 MIGHT pull it off, more likely a BAR in 338 Win Mag or one of the more specialized semi's out there in 338 Lapua Mag. Realistically, I'd have a Model 70 Winchester in 375 H&H Mag or 416 Rem Mag for that kind of stuff as the bullets are both big enough & tough enough for that shot to even be a REMOTE possibility. As for ammo carrying capacity, long range weapons tend to carry little in the mag as you're supposed to be well away from what you're shooting at. Again, lighter/shorter ranged weapons designed with HD or CQC in mind carry more ammo.

As for spare parts & ammo, unless you choose to use something chambered in a NATO or Soviet round and made to either spec, generally an AR or AK or some of the more specialized CQC or SOCOM weapons, you'll be limited to your scrounging abilities unless it happens to be a civilian arm that was made for nearly 100+yrs (ie the Browning Auto 5).

 

[jlott00]

socom16 or ruger gunsite scout...my vote.......make sure and get .308 i think

 

[TonyAngel]

clance, I feel that you have unrealistic goals in terms of their being met by a single rifle.

If you have to have a semi auto rifle fed by a detachable magazine with a mag capacity higher than five rounds or so, you're talking something along the lines of an AR in either 5.56 or .308, but I wouldn't consider either to be an "all around" rifle. Although an AR15 can be light, many aren't and I don't think that I've messed with any sort of AR10 type of rifle that can be considered to be light and both are bulky for what they are.

If you can dispense with the need for high mag capacity and the detachable magazine, the best all around rifle that I can think of is a Marlin 30/30 lever action. It carries a good bit more thump than a 5.56 and although it isn't a .308, it's still a .30 cal bullet coming out of the front end.

People with many uses for a rifle usually wind up owning more than one rifle. There is no such thing as an "all around rifle" if you consider the term in its strictest sense. To me, an "all around rifle" would be one that you could make do with in most situations and the Marlin 30/30 covers that pretty well.

On another note, if you believe that a DI rifle is unreliable and that pistons are more reliable, it tells me two things. The first is that you have no experience with a modern, quality DI rifle. The second is that you have no experience with a piston rifle wherein the piston has seized. I'm not trying to make the representation that one is more or less reliable than the other. The only point that I'm trying to convey is that each system has its own strengths and weaknesses; and all actions/platforms have them.

Good luck on the hunt.

 

[M ammo]

Easy,,, the AR-15 parts ammo and mags are easy to find

in .223/5.56

or go for a .308,, if you think you need to,,

I have both,,

 

[AlexanderA]

Considering all your criteria, plus the unmentioned one (affordability), look at the Remington Model 7400 in .308 or .30-06.

 

[Mr_Pale_Horse]

Simonov

10 round strippers are darn handy, and you will be hard pressed to loose or damage the integral magazine.

 

[clance]

I see tons of threads with "hypothetical situations". You might want to look up the definitions for the words "hypothetical" and "situation".

Also, I have no idea how you are able to gather that the OP is trying to pick a fight. It seems like you are the one looking for a fight. It looks like he has a certain belief in regards to semi-autos and I wouldn't read much more into it. Furthermore, it never ceases to amaze me how people will incessantly nitpick on this fine forum.

Here's what I gather: He's looking for a rifle and, perhaps, needs a little direction/education. Although, I must admit, I did chuckle a bit when I read the part about punching through brick walls.

You would be absolutely correct, I am looking for some advice. Most of my experience has been with handguns and shotguns that I used in my line of work. Never have I ever use a rifle while working so my knowledge in that area is a little lacking.

I have had several semi-auto rifles over the years, even a couple of "Black Rifles" that I just used for target shooting and competition (3 guns) but never gave it much thought for practical applications.

Couple of reason that I wanted to stay away from the direct gas system came from my experience with the 2 rifle (AR) that I had. One (Armalite) the bolt shattered in the breech for no other reason then it did. The other (Colt) was because of the tight tolerance I started to have problems with the bolt and bolt carrier locking cause of the direct gas system dumping hot gas into the action causing carbon build up only after a couple hundred rounds. Thus the necessity for a "forward assist" on the AR rifles. Never had this problem with the AKs or FALs that I've owned and probably why they don't come with forward assists.

I would like to get another FAL but the gun as well as the ammo is heavier then I really want to go. The AK platform lacks the accuracy though I think the cartridge has potential seeing it has the same ballistics of a 30-30. I even concidered the AR from Rock River using the piston system and the 6.8 SPC but then you've got the problem with cartridge availability and if you wander away from standard systems then you have issues with parts and magazines availability?

Thus the reason why I came to THR and pose the question to see if any one might be able to provide a answer?

By the way, even I must admit that I gone a little overboard on being able to punch through a brick wall.

 

[Mags]

Couple of reason that I wanted to stay away from the direct gas system came from my experience with the 2 rifle (AR) that I had. One (Armalite) the bolt shattered in the breech for no other reason then it did. The other (Colt) was because of the tight tolerance I started to have problems with the bolt and bolt carrier locking cause of the direct gas system dumping hot gas into the action causing carbon build up only after a couple hundred rounds. Thus the necessity for a "forward assist" on the AR rifles. Never had this problem with the AKs or FALs that I've owned and probably why they don't come with forward assists.

Your reasons have nothing to do with the DI system and that is not what a FA is for.

 

[txhoghunter]

I would say an LWRC M6 in 6.8 SPC (or 5.56 if you wish to have a more available round)

 

[d2wing]

In addition to the 7400 you could look at the FNAR or the same action in the BAR, Winchester SXR semi auto. I know where there is a new SXR in .300 Win Mag for just over $500.00. However with your extreme bad luck with AR's I can't recommend much with confidence. Smart remark deleted.

 

[mshootnit]

Marlin 338MXLR

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/308MarlinExpress/338MXLR.asp

I handled one of these and it really struck me as the rifle you would want if you could only have one.

 

[clance]

Your reasons have nothing to do with the DI system and that is not what a FA is for.

While I have to agree with you on the shattered bolt (it isn't the first time I heard about this happening), you may want to do a little research of why the forward assist was added to the weapon in the first place.

 

[Sky]

Cinder block walls and car doors present a problem especially at that range for a lite affordable rifle...the end all to be all???...AR-15 with grenade launcher with H.E. would work up closer but 300 yards is a bit much and there are other problems with this set up!

If I want a lite easy to use to cover most situations I grab a 14.5" AR and the ammo for intended use. If I want a reach out and touch something at range I grab a 20 or 24" barreled good optic AR....Sounds like I like ARs I know; in truth I am not in love with them but they cover the ground I wish covered and in most of the areas I am interested in they work. I would like the stopping power of a 37mm but would not want the meat after the shot; for walls and cars at 300+ call Arty or air cover. For me ammo selection and a small bottle of Breakfree CLP and I am good to go for many hundreds of rounds in conditions I wonder why I am even there!. Weight, cost of both weapon and ammo, not to mention parts availability the AR is hard to beat in my bias opinion. I really do believe many have thought about the best all around rifle and have concluded the AR is hard to beat on many levels IMO. A 223 because of its popularity, light weight and great accuracy and a .308 with excellent accuracy, a greater range and a more powerful ballistics report are both good starting points.

Sorry you had some bad experiences in the past.

 

[Dreamcast270mhz]

Just me, but I would go with a full power rifle for general purpose, as there isn't a whole lost of difference in weight of 7.62x39 and 54r, not that I've carried any on my back but the spam cans feel exactly the same in weight. My recommendation:

PSL- Not too heavy, easy to find parts (some parts are AK interchangeable) gas piston design, accurate and when fitted with an aftermarket muzzle brake and recoil pad, it is easily controllable.

Magazine size is its achilles heel, ten rounds standard. Some people have added mag catches to lahti/26 magazines (25 rnd) as the rounds are nearly identical.

But it is hard to dedicate so many features to one rifle. BTW Direct Impingement, although obsolete is actually a sound concept. Two rifles use it taht are VERY reliable:

MAS 49
Hakim

The Stoner system has its deficiencies in smaller chamberings due to it being non-adujustable, manufactured to tight tolerances not well suited for the rifle and it being originally designed for a rifle known as the AR-10, 7.62 NATO.

 

[Mags]

OK the FA is there to silently close the bolt or to force the bolt closed on a dirty chamber. Doing the latter will normally cause the AR to lockup. BTW after few sessions totaling a couple hundred rounds without cleaning I have not had to use the FA.

 

[GCBurner]

That's a couple of votes now for the 6.8mm Rem. SPC cartridge. If I was limited to ONE rifle to do it all, I'd be tempted to go that route, with a carbine length Ruger or AR package. It's more powerful than the .223, flatter shooting and more accurate than the 7.62x39, and much lighter, more compact, and easier to carry around than the .308/7.62NATO. The only real drawback is the availability of the ammo where you are; you'd probably have to count on reloading your own, rather than picking it up at the local Wal-Mart.