All purpose rifle

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"...look at the Remington Model 7400..." Discontinued in favour of the M750. Used will do though.
As mentioned, you don't need or want a 300 meter rifle for SD. You are responsible for where every shot you fire ends up. Kill somebody a mile away and you're guilty of manslaughter. You won't want to shoot through a vehicle either. You won't be stopping any vehicle with any cartridge out of any rifle. Shooting the driver means you have a ton or so of uncontrolled projectile.
"...why the forward assist was added to the weapon..." Mediocre ammo in extremely humid conditions.
"...punching through brick walls..." 7.62NATO ball, .30 M2 ball, .303 British ball, etc.
 
@ clance

you mention the recent tradgedies in japan, New Orleans, LA etc...

in situations such as these, a battle rifle should not be the first thing on your mind
defensive tools are a definate need, but so is clean water, food, shelter, clothing, and other vital needs.

being able to shoot through brick walls and cars is really a non issue as far as keeping your family safe and healthy in a disaster zone
 
In a disaster evac a la Katrina and Rita, light weight and portability are far more important than the ability to penetrate cover at 300 yards. Ditto for HD, whether disaster-related or not. You are far more likely to have to maneuver inside your house with that rifle than to need to be shooting through anything three football fields away. And .308 or .30-06 ammunition and magazines is *heavy* compared to .223/5.56x45 and kicks much more. In a hurricane or evac, I'd rather have a PS90 than a Garand....

You might consider attending a 3-gun or USPSA/IDPA sanctioned carbine match and watch what people run. And also consider that a basic 16" AR (or even an AK) and a training class will probably leave you better equipped than a $2000 SCAR-H/Mk 17 .308 and no training.

FWIW, Japan's reactor issues are relatively small potatoes compared to the eighteen thousand dead and millions homeless right now. Whole cities have been wiped out. BTW, for a good inside view of what's going on at the nuclear plants, this is a really good resource.

in situations such as these, a battle rifle should not be the first thing on your mind
defensive tools are a definate need, but so is clean water, food, shelter, clothing, and other vital needs.
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Definitely.
 
Japan is a strong nation, they will recover eventually. The reactors are nothing compared to Chernobyl in terms of damage. As long as the cores don't explode we are going to see some radiation leaks but not enough to kill anyone. Chernobyl put millions of radioactive particles all over Europe and the former SU. Are people dropping like flies? no.

I agree with the above statement, a rifle is good but you need necessites for survival first. A gun is a giant paperweight without game or hostiles near you.

I think you shouldtake into account that 6.8 isn't very popular yet, I would recommend 7.62x39 because it is a common round, has the punch you want and is light that 54r.
 
What ever you decide upon there will be compromises in certain areas. I'm going to try to touch on several areas here without rambling to much.

If the rifle is going to be used for defensive purposes forget about shooting at 300 yards, that is offensive territory not defensive. If you were ever to use a rifle against a person that was 300 yards away plan on spending an all expenses paid visit to your local state prison for a long time. In combat most fire fights are well within 200 yards many are closer than that. It is a lot harder than many think to see a human sized target at 300 yards unless your using optics. Then factor in the pucker factor and adrenaline rush that you will experience that too will factor into your shooting ability. Even then do you think that someone will be in the wide open and in perfect weather and light conditions?... No way, they will be using cover and concealment (provided that they have any brains) and you will never know they are there. Defense with a long gun IMHO is going to be 25 to 50 yards, and I certainly would not try staving off any large hordes either. Egressing is the word of the day in that situation so that you can live another day.

As for the cartridge the OP wants a intermediate cartridge with the ability to take deer sized game and overcome certain barriers. IMHO that leaves out the .223/5.56x45 from the outset. The 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel would be nice however availability for both is not great by any stretch. The 7.62x39 is the next contender and makes more sense to me given the OP criteria. It is pretty common, will take deer sized game, and history has proven that it does pretty darn well at defeating certain barriers. The down side is that it may not be as accurate as the OP wants.

Another cartridge that you should give strong consideration to and has been mentioned already is the trusty ol' .30-30. It will take deer sized game and larger reliably. It can defeat barriers as outlined by the OP, they are accurate, and ammo can be found virtually anywhere. However the compromise with the 30-30 is one of ammo capacity compared to the others.

The OP is going to have to figure out what cartridge meets his criteria the best, then go with the platform next.

Oh and BTW, for those that think the .30-30 is worthless for this type of sceneriao read about how well Sheepdog did with his at a Frontsight rifle course here post #2756. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258000&page=111
 
I would spend my money on supplies before worrying about which rifle to buy.

You live in Michigan (or at least that's what you list). You don't have to worry about floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, and probably not about riots unless you are in a rough part of Detroit. A tornado and FERMI/Davis Besse are the only real big potentials to go down. I have yet to see the rampant looting/killing going on after a tornado strikes. If either of those power plants have a major issue, ammo and rifles are going to be far from the issue at hand.

You want to assess for the worst. What is the worst you see happening where you live? I wouldn't prepare for a Katrina situation living in Michigan.

As for the rifle, I'd go with a 1:7" twist 18" midlength AR of your choice in .223. There are some quality bullets out there in .224" that are great on deer sized game. Sure, shooting 36gr varmint grenades aren't best for penetration, but it all comes down to bullet selection and shot placement, for any rifle. Load up on a case or so of .223 ammo and the mags to hold it and you would be more than ready for anything going on in Michigan.
 
Personally, Home defense and punching through car doors and hunting deer are so extremely different goals that one shouldn't be used to do the other. Home defense is a lightweight pistol caliber weapon thats easy to get to and simple to operate in a hectic moment. Hunting deer and puching through car doors is a medium calibered long arm that can be either lever action or semi auto. I cant imagine ever wanting to shoot through a car door at someone unless you couldn't get to a phone and call police to handle it. Keeping them behind that car door would be my goal until police arrived.
 
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something like this OP would be the route I take.
 
Not sure if there is a "perfect all around rifle" for all the situations the OP discussed??

There are some that cover a lot of bases fairly well though. A Remington 742 woodmaster in 30-06 would be a good choice.

I personally don't feel a home is complete without a Marlin 336 Lever action in a 30-30 hanging over the fire place ready to go.:) I think a few other posters have mirrored that sentiment;).......... and everone should have at least one 22LR:D ....dont think it will be shootin through blocks though ??:rolleyes:

Oh well just another offered opinion?................. I do hope you find what your looking for though....Tentwing
 
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243 winchester is my pick for all around. Light bullet for the critters, and 100 grain partitions can cleanly take deer and similar sized animals
 
Just my two cents worth and free to you but i understand the wanting the universal wepon in the cases you described. First the wepon to shoot threw a brick wall depending on thickness and range would have to be a large caliber 30 or above to get penetration at lon distances,30.06,7mag,ect. Second that situation is 1 in a billion to happen. Third are you planning for the end of the world you quote protect my family,witch most would take as protecting from other ppl. And you spoke of taking der,possibly for food. If this is ur thoughts? Pls calm urself as if the end is coming you wont need or have a chance no matter what gun,how many or how much ammo you have. However on the Flipside for home defence and even a deer rifle a 243 in a youth model bolt action is verry reliable.
 
Mags said:
Good luck to the OP replenishing his supply of his 30 cal AR specific cartridge, 6.8 or 6.5 during a "SHTF" scenario.
[sarcasm]I'm sure someone will have some to trade for his food.[sarcasm]
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LOL!

Like most who have chosen to criticize you shown your ignorance and lack of fore thought on the topic. I’m sure that “IF” a situational scenario should occur, those that are aided by your and your family contribution to their continued survival will be most thankful [sarcasm].
 
clance said:
In the 30+ years of security and the work that I did in it, we always evaluated (risk assessment) what could be the worst case scenario then plan and prepared for it.
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OK, I'm not a security professional like you; but I do share your concern for protecting my family. Now a 7lb load of 7.62x51 in mags is about 140 rounds. You mentioned 7.62x39 was too short-ranged and you also said you like the better ballistics of 6.5 Grendel, which real doesn't come into play until after 300m.

So what worst case scenario have you assessed requiring more than 140 rounds and distances of over 300m in a scenario where the primary concern is the safety of your family? Not being a security professional myself, I'm not seeing that scenario; but I'd be interested in knowing if my limited knowledge of the security biz has caused a shortfall in my risk assessment.
 
Actually Clance, the first part of my last post is very serious and something you should think about. If need be, will you be able to trade for 6.5, 6.8, or whatever 30cal AR specific you end up with?

Do you have a serious answer?
 
Without giving just a one word answer I'd say go with a Kel-Tec SU-16, I choose this rifle (even though I don't own one) due to the fact that the entire design is really simple, reliable, and versatile. The rifle uses AR style mags and leaves plenty of options for any accessories and little nick knacks on the weapon.
 
Since I first got into guns and learned of the AR rifle I had always been skeptical of it and wouldn't trust one enough to ever own one. To begin with, alot of the reliability issues were placed on its DI system and secondly because of its caliber.

The rifle simply never interested me.

When it became available in 6.8spc it caught my attention again, since all the piston driven ARs were completely out of my price range I started looking at the more affordable DI ARs.

As I looked closer at it I decided that it was worth considering and now I own one and its been wonderful and reliable.

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I would consider this my all-purpose rifle, simply because it can do almost anything one would ever ask of a rifle to do. It has the range of the .223 with much better effectiveness. Its effective enough to be used to take deer sized game reliably within 300 meters, that cannot be said of the .223.

It takes high capacity detachable box magazines, a picatinny rail milled into the top of the receiver for any optics you wish to mount, it is relatively light and handy and recoil is negligible.

Its funny when I read these posts about why one shouldn't get a rifle in 6.8spc because that ammo would be hard to find. Then I read that when the SHTF you won't even need a rifle, but a shovel and clean water.

I think it all gets taken out of proportion, the rifle, like a nail gun a framer takes to work, is nothing more than a tool, they take enough ammo or nails they feel "they need" for the job and they're satisfied. When they run out of nails or ammo they simply go get more or find another tool that runs on whatever ammo or nails they can get their hands on.
That's just how Americans roll.
 
Mags said:
Actually Clance, the first part of my last post is very serious and something you should think about. If need be, will you be able to trade for 6.5, 6.8, or whatever 30cal AR specific you end up with?

Do you have a serious answer?
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Yes I do.

I would find it very difficult to believe that anyone with an ounce of brains in a SHTF situation would even consider trading weapons or ammo that could be used against them. So your question is nothing more the a rhetorical hypothesis on your belief that man is a far more noble creature then what he has proven himself to be.
 
One other fact that the OP may need to accept is that with a gun that will do all three tasks (punch through a car door, SD, and take game) there will be down-sides. As of yet, no do-it-all rifle exists. The closest to it is a .308 rifle. It suffers at SD because it is a large heavy bullet going rather fast. You have issues with over-penetration, and your follow-up shots are going to be slow. But, you can reach out to 500+ yards with a lot of energy, and punch through most obstacles that the bullet may encounter. Down-side is heavy ammo, and limited SD potential. Up side is its a do-it-all, and ammo will be relatively easy to find. Hell, every wall-mart has a few boxes of .308 on the shelves, can you say the same of 6.5 Grendel?

5.56 is a good runner up. Its great for SD, like most rifles, will punch through thin sheet-metal with ease, and in a pinch with good ammo and shot placement, you can take a deer with one, but I wouldn't push my luck much beyond that. Ammo is equally plentiful and light. A AR-15 in 20" flavor and 300 rounds of say 64gr bonded JSP will run you about 15lb. If you get out on foot, having a light gun with light ammo is a big plus when you have 40-50lb ruck on your back with all your survival supplies and food.

Honestly, for "emergency" or SHTF rifle, I think having easily available ammo to keep your gun running is going to count for more then having the best cartridge that is only know about on gun-boards. The other question is are you planning on bug out to the in-laws, or bug-out to the hills? Basically, what's your exit strategy(s), are you planning primary on foot or vehicle? Is this for 3 days or until the day Jesus comes? And many more...

All of this will affect what kind of rifle you would like to have, and at the end of the day, having a rifle is the most important part in the first place.

As for DI reliability: Keep it slathered in gun oil or motor oil, and it will not let you down. The worst thing an AR action can be is under-lubricated, the one thing it can never be is over-lubricated.
 
benzy2 said:
I would spend my money on supplies before worrying about which rifle to buy.

You live in Michigan (or at least that's what you list). You don't have to worry about floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, and probably not about riots unless you are in a rough part of Detroit. A tornado and FERMI/Davis Besse are the only real big potentials to go down. I have yet to see the rampant looting/killing going on after a tornado strikes. If either of those power plants have a major issue, ammo and rifles are going to be far from the issue at hand.

You want to assess for the worst. What is the worst you see happening where you live? I wouldn't prepare for a Katrina situation living in Michigan...
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What makes you think that the situation that happens to cause a SHTF has to happen in Michigan to impact the residence of Michigan???

There are several possible situations in the region, on the North American continent or even the otherside of the world that could trigger a SHTF situation that could impact the residence of Michigan.

Locally as I explained earlier we have a main East/West interstate running though my town. In addition we also have a rail line that runs parallel to the interstate. The hazarous material that is transported everyday on both could cause a localize emergency but not I believe to the level of a SHTF.

Then we have not only 3 nuclear power plants on the western side of the state (prevealing winds come out of the west) but several each in northern Illinios and southeastern Wisconsin. Most of these plants were built back in the 1970s with expectations to have a designed lifespan of up to 40 years and they're coming to the end of that with no plans to shut them down or replace them.

The New Madrid fault when it last triggered in 1812 rang church bell as far away as 1100 miles in Boston and New York city and caused damage as far away as Philadelphia. Seeing that most building codes today don't concern themselves with the threat of quakes in the Midwest. It's expected to cause massive damage both to architecture and infrastructure in the region. Experts have track the history of the fault and it cycle of events which occur approximately every 200 years. Do the math.

And how about the Yellowstone Caldera? A super volcano which has a 600,000 year eruption cycle but last erupted was over 640,000 years? Last known super volcano (Toba) to have erupted during the time of man (71,000 years ago) nearly made man extinct due to it's impact on global climate.

While the chance that these things will come to pass during my life time is remote. I'm sure that the people of Japan knowing that they live with the possibility of earthquakes and tsunamis never thought they would be a victim of both on March 11, 2011.

Kind of makes you think now doesn't it?
 
-v- said:
One other fact that the OP may need to accept is that with a gun that will do all three tasks (punch through a car door, SD, and take game) there will be down-sides. As of yet, no do-it-all rifle exists. The closest to it is a .308 rifle. It suffers at SD because it is a large heavy bullet going rather fast. You have issues with over-penetration, and your follow-up shots are going to be slow. But, you can reach out to 500+ yards with a lot of energy, and punch through most obstacles that the bullet may encounter. Down-side is heavy ammo, and limited SD potential. Up side is its a do-it-all, and ammo will be relatively easy to find. Hell, every wall-mart has a few boxes of .308 on the shelves, can you say the same of 6.5 Grendel?

5.56 is a good runner up. Its great for SD, like most rifles, will punch through thin sheet-metal with ease, and in a pinch with good ammo and shot placement, you can take a deer with one, but I wouldn't push my luck much beyond that. Ammo is equally plentiful and light. A AR-15 in 20" flavor and 300 rounds of say 64gr bonded JSP will run you about 15lb. If you get out on foot, having a light gun with light ammo is a big plus when you have 40-50lb ruck on your back with all your survival supplies and food.

Honestly, for "emergency" or SHTF rifle, I think having easily available ammo to keep your gun running is going to count for more then having the best cartridge that is only know about on gun-boards. The other question is are you planning on bug out to the in-laws, or bug-out to the hills? Basically, what's your exit strategy(s), are you planning primary on foot or vehicle? Is this for 3 days or until the day Jesus comes? And many more...

All of this will affect what kind of rifle you would like to have, and at the end of the day, having a rifle is the most important part in the first place...
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While I understand your point concerning the readily availability of ammo and if you read my intial posting, it was one of the criterias that I set for my selection of a "all purpose rifle." But with my decision to go with the AR platform, the ability of changing out upper assemblies (5.56x45, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, & 7.62x39) that more or less alleviates the concerns of not finding ammo if necessary. While the 6.5 Grendel isn't as widespead as say the 7.62x51, it is available at or less cost then commerical 7.62x51. The cartridge is smaller and lighter in size but delivers comparible ballistics as the 7.62x51. Penetration will be determine by the type of bullet that is used and while the 6.5 Grendel isn't perfect, it meet all but one of my criterias (readily available).

As for my strategy I believe from everything that I have seen from past emergencies I'll have a window of opportuntity of approximately 24-48 hours before the shock of the event wears off and people go into survival mode.

My strategy is to move quickly during this time, gathering up family members and head out to a location where it will be easier to defend and find the material necessary for our survival for the immediate period to long-term. This will provide the time necessary to evalute the developing situation and whether or not it will be necessary to move and in what direction to insure our continue survival.
 
Well......I typically don't get into these "when the zombies come" type discussions, but I am really surprised by the number of people here recommending relatively expensive calibers for an "all around" type rifle. The handiest rifle is one you shoot well. Confidence equals accuracy.

The more times you have fired a particular rifle, the more confident you will be in hitting the intended target. The simple fact is that 7.62x39 is still cheap. Cheap calibers mean more practice. No one spends all day shooting 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC unless they have more money than sense. Properly executed trigger time will make anyone a better shooter. If the day ever does come where you need that rifle for more than paper punching, you will be ready.

It's been said already, but the SKS is reliable and accurate once you upgrade from the basic sights. Tech-Sights makes a very well designed set of sights for the SKS. I'm no expert marksman, and even I can shoot 2-3 MOA out to 200 yards with a Norinco w/ Tech Sights.

Box mags don't fall off, and they seldom jam. Don't convert it to a detachable mag system. There's no need. I can load a new stripper clip as fast as you can swap a mag. Buy cheap ammo for practice, and stockpile some good stuff in case you ever need it. Above all, shoot, shoot, and then shoot some more. There is no substitute for practicing with your rifle of choice. Know you rifle like it's an extension of you.
 
I was just thinkin' back when I was like 19 or 20 years old. I wanted a centerfire semi-auto, and was agonizing over the choices. I wanted a HK-91 or FAL, but both were out of my price range. Then a buddy turned me on to the SKS on a shooting excursion and I was hooked. Light enough, accurate enough, cheap to buy, cheap to shoot, and most importantly; fun to shoot.
 
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