Allied World War II revolvers

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Nightcrawler

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What kind of revolvers were used widely in World War II?

Obviously, some leftover Colt and S&W M1917s probably made it. The "Victory" model was basically a model 10, right? Were they all in .38S&W or did .38 Special models see use too?

The British had their Webley and Enfield break-top revolvers, in .38 S&W and .455, right? What specific models were there? Did they use any .38 Special revolvers?

Pictures are always nice, too. :D
 
You've hit the highlights.

The Webley Mk VI in .455 was no longer in front-line service during WW II, having been replaced by the Enfield and Webley (substitute standard) as well as the Smith & Wesson (pre-Victory model would be the best way of describing them).

However, quite a few Mk VIs were carried, especially by officers who had purchased their own.

The British primarily used S&Ws in .38 S&W, but did take quite a few thousand chambered in .38 Spl. for secondary issue.

Commonwealth troops also used these revolvers.

The French used the Mle 1892 Lebel revolver in 8mm, and to a lesser degree (mainly with African colonial troops) the Mle 1873 Ordnance revolver in 11mm.

The Soviets of course used the Model 1895 Nagant Gas Seal revolver in 7.62mm.

In Germany Mauser Commission revolvers were used, mainly issued to home defense troops.

The Japanese still had copious numbers of Type 26 revolvers in 9mm that were issued to both front line and secondary troops.


In the United States the Model 1917s were issued mainly to support troops and, interestingly, Military Police. There's a picture of an MP directing traffic over a bridge across the Rhine and he's got what looks like an S&W Model 1917 in his belt.

The S&W Military and Police revolver in .38 Spl. eventually did become the Model 10. The British used the ones chambered in .38 S&W.

I'm not sure how widely it was issued, but I don't think it made it to many front line units.

I was watching "The Color of War" on the History Channel a few months ago, and one scene showed a beach invasion in the Pacific. The cameraman focused on the Navy officer commanding the landing craft, and it was very clear that he was holding an S&W .38 Spl.
 
So, not a whole lot of the top-breaks in .38 Special, but there were some, hey?

I'd like to see a picture of the Webley large frame, small frame, and Enfield revolvers in comparison.

I've seen the Japanese revolver; They had a review of it in SWAT magazine awhile back.

I'm familiar with the Nagant, as well.

The French revolver...it was double action, but had a loading gate like an American single action, yes?

These Mauser ordnance revolvers...any idea where I can find a picture?
 
"So, not a whole lot of the top-breaks in .38 Special, but there were some, hey?"

No, that would be NO breaktops in .38 Spl.


"The French revolver...it was double action, but had a loading gate like an American single action, yes?"

Yes, both of the French revolvers were double action. The 1873 used a loading gate, but quite frankly, I just can't remember what the 1892 used.


For a picture of the Webley Mk VI, go here:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976371363.htm
 
I found pics of the revolvers over at World.Guns.Ru. Great site!

Thanks for the info, Mike. I figured you'd be along to answer the questions. :D

What was the British fascination with the .38S&W round? I can't imagine a more anemic cartridge to use as a service round. I think it's rivaled in it's weakness only by the 7.62mm Nagant cartridge...
 
Yeah...but the .38S&W round was what, a 200 grain bullet at like 650 feet per second? That's not exactly high velocity.

I find referneces to both British revolvers in .38S&W and ".380". I had thought that these were the same cartridge?
 
No, not high velocity at all.

In British service the round was called the .380/200.

That only covers the EARLY loadings, with lead bullets, though.

By the time that WW II rolled around the bullet had been changed to a 177 (IIRC) gr. jacketed bullet at roughly 700 fps.

It's probable that the British got the idea for the round from Colt's version of the .38 S&W, the .38 Colt Super Police, which used a 200-gr. bullet at roughly 700 fps, and was well thought of in police circles in the United States at the time.
 
The U.S. also used S&W and Colt .38-200 revolvers. Next to the British and their Commonwealth the largest single buyer of S&W .38-200 revolvers was .... The O.S.S! That would be Col. Applegate's old outfit.

They also were the only ones within the U.S. Military establishment to order full-jacketed .38 S&W ammunition - loaded with a 125-grain FJRN going, are you ready? 625 FPS (+ or - 25 FPS @ 25 feet). This from a 4" barrel, which is interesting because all of the revolvers they bought, so far as is known, had 5-inch barrels.

And you thought the "Mother Country's" ammunition was for wimps ....

Colt Detective Specials were ordered. Among many others, General Patton had one.

The U.S. Government also bought revolvers from Iver Johnson and Harrington & Richardson. These were all top-breaks in .32 or .38 S&W.
 
Wasn't familiar with Colt .380/200 offerings - - -

Colt DID, however, make thousands of the Official Police in a military finish, and marked them "Commando." (Not to be confused with the roughly finished version of the Detective Special offered during the late 1970s. Or was it early '80s?)

I don't believe the Commando/OP was ever issued to combat units, going instead to industrial guards and such. It WAS, however, an arm in allied service in WW-II.

Old Fuff, I thought the M41 cartridge used a 130 gr. bullet, the ancestor of the current Winchester and Remington 130 commercial offerings.

Best,
Johnny
 
Johnny G.

You're thinking of the .38 Special, not the .38 S&W. Frankly, I would have thought they would have used the 130 grain bullet, rather then make an odd-ball 125 grain slug.

However the ammunition, intended for the O.S.S., was manufactured by Remington, under two contracts, one of which was No. W36-038-ORD-5644, and the 50-round boxes were marked: "38 S&W 125 Gr. M.C. In all they got around 60,000 rounds. Not a lot, but then ....

Uncle Sam bought a lot of commercial .38 S&W, loaded with 146 grain LRN bullets for non-overseas military use, such as for stateside defense plant guards, etc.

Some strange things happened during the war because they're weren't enough handguns to go around.

Concerning your comments about the (original) Colt Commando. These were also made in .38-200 (.38 S&W) We used them in both .38 S&W and .38 Special.
 
I know some pics were found thru someone's link but .. just to place some on here ..... these are the two Enfields I had once ..... no longer have those. Mike I think previously gave them their correct designations .... one with hammer spur and one without. The latter I fancy was in use by tank corps.......

Enfield1_hr.jpg



Enfield2_hr.jpg


And then, the trusty Webley MkVI .. this in fact was my old one ... but almost identical is the one I have now which I rebuilt and reblued ... not sure where that pic is right now. Cal .455

WebMkVI_hr.jpg
 
The spur-less Enfield was a DAO gun. It had a trigger that took two grown men, a small boy, and a chainfall to pull. A WWII British NCO described it as "Too inaccurate for a pistol and too light to make a good club." :cool:
 
I'm not sure how widely it was issued, but I don't think it made it to many front line units.

There were slightly over 250,000 S&W Victory Models manufactured and they were widely issued to Navy and Marine pilots. Some were issued to military and civilian guards in addition to the Colt Commandos mentioned above. There are documented cases of Marine Raiders using the Victory Model, although they were "appropriated" instead of being issued.

There is an interesting sub-group to the Colt Commando Models. Best guesstimate is that there were around 45,000 4" Colt Commandos manufactured. There were also between 3,000-4,000 2" models manufactured that were nicknamed "Junior Commando".
 
I can assure you the 1917 revolvers both Colt and SW made it to the front lines.

There is a famous Frank Capra photo of a paratrooper in North Africa showing off all his goodies on a blanket. In addition to his non regulation 50 rd drum on his 1927 Thompason (NOT an M1), there is a knuckle duster trench knife and a BIG 1917 on his belt.

In a book about cavalry scouts in WW2, a young seargent reports that when pistols were issued, the officers all immediately seized the COLT revolvers, leaving the grunts with a new-fangled automatic (which he later loses and replaces with a p-38 and a BHP, both captured in Italy). It should be noted, when this guy joined up he was a stable boy for the Horse cavalry in the late 30's, so the revolvers being here should not be a surprise. Apparently the 1917 wasn't that scarce in armor crews:

On the history channel, in a special talking about WW2 tankers, in a letter home voiced over, a young corporal describes having qualified with a .45 cal revolver along with his promotion.

I recall reading one article about a guy cleaning out his dad's "attic" and finding his "war guns". His dad was in the OSS, and an operative. Dad's war guns included a luger and a 45 caliber 2 inch snubnosed revolver. The idiot claims he wants to "yank the firing pins because he doesn't believe in guns". He lets these heirlooms rust. jerk. Anyway, that could only be a Colt, as the SW has the shrouded cylinder pin. A Fitz made for OSS use? Thats GOT to be a collector's item

On other revolvers:

The germans had a number of 38 cal revolvers, which were made or captured. I know because my Aunt Marie took a shot at some bikers with the one her husband brought home. It's a 38 SW, not special, 6 shot looks like a smith but no markings as a smith, it was faded to patina and had some pitting on the outside of the barrel. Also featured a dime sized rusty spot on the cylinder from being stored in steel drawer. Took two hours to scrub the rust off it, but I never did see anything resembling lettering or a logo on the weapon. Shoots just fine last I heard. Was thinking maybe its an Astra?

Band of Brothers, Stepehen Ambrose tells a story of a young GI being sent a SW model 10 as he's getting ready to jump over normandy. That happened in every war up to Vietnam and pre GCA of 1968. Anyone could send a soldier a pistol, and it happened a lot. (Ive heard numerous anecdotal stories, and most guns sent were the SW model 10)

Tales of the Gun told of one Model 10 changing hands 8 times as it went island hopping with the marines.

Pistols were coveted items, and everybody wanted one not just as a trophy.

The Victory model SW revolver spoent most of its time in the hands of MP's and Britsh aircrews, as far as I can tell by reading, as most that come up for sale are marked as such. An RAF marked Victory model isn't that rare, most of them are unissued it seems.

The 38 "Commando" had two offerings a small lot of 2 inch models earmarked for OSS use, and a the 4 inch model which was earmarked for 'homeguard" use, by civil defense personnel and power plant guards etc. the 4 inch is widely available, the 2 inch is scarce. some 50,000 commando models were made for the war effort. All other Colt revolvers it seems were made during wartime, but in far fewer numbers. 12,000 new service models, 6,000 Police Positive Specials, etc.

The .38 cal Webly bobbed hammer modelwas not just issued to tankers but all over then British services where, if i read it right it was universally despised. The tankers were issued different holsters than the air crews and infantry. Lanyards were still standard.

Did see an oddball at a gunshow: Colt New Service 38 special, 4 inch barrel, parkerized with British proofs. Have to bet that was lend/lease era or one of the wartime New Service Models. Biggest 38 I've ever seen, price wasn't too bad either.

You can imagine that some where in some GI's collection is a SW Model 3 Russian, in 44 Russian, captured by the Japanese, or used against them. Wouldn't that be a find?
 
Dr.Rob,

The Victory model SW revolver spoent most of its time in the hands of MP's and Britsh aircrews, as far as I can tell by reading

Check out U.S. Infantry Weapons of World War II by Bruce N. Canfield. The Victory Model did manage to make it to the front in the Pacific.
 
"I can assure you the 1917 revolvers both Colt and SW made it to the front lines."

I don't think anyone said that they didn't. The majority, though, were held back for troops that didn't have to be supplied at the front lines mainly because of the issue of the ammo, and getting clipped ammo to guys who needed the clips.


The German revolvers were very likely Spanish copies of S&W revolvers, given the links between Franco Spain and Germany during the war.
 
A couple of points. There was no "Model 10" S&W in WWII. S&W did not use model numbers until 1958. Prior to that it was just the Military and Police (M&P) model and it is by that term that it was known.

Further, the term "Victory Model" was never used by the military or in any formal contact with S&W. It grew out of the problem S&W had when M&P production went past 999,999 and their numbering machine only had six spaces. The were going to replace the left hand (high order) number with an "A" when some advertising genius decided to make it a "V" and call the gun the "Victory Model". The term was used in S&W advertising, but was never a military term and was never marked on the guns. Technically, S&W M&P revolvers in the military configuration but without the "V" serial number are not "Victory Models".

Jim
 
Jim is correct. The “V†or Victory Model was made from 1942 through 1945. It was a wartime version of S&W’s standard Military & Police.

One version was made in .38 Special with a 4 inch barrel, with a handful made with 2 inch barrels. The 4 inch revolvers became pretty much standard as sidearms for Navy pilots in the Pacific.

A second version was chambered in .38 S&W and had 5 inch barrels. These were known as the “38-200 and originally intended for Great Britain and its Commonwealth. However some were used by the U.S. Military, and a considerable number were obtained by the O.S.S.

Generally speaking the .38 Special guns should be referred to as “Victory Models†while the .38 S&W ones called “38-200’s†to avoid confusion, although both were numbered in the “V†serial number series. Some 38-200 revolvers pre-date the “V†numbers, but all of the wartime .38 Specials are included within it.
 
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