Almost a KABOOM

[243winxb]

When letting grandson fire 223 bolt gun for the first time, before going off to college, this happened.
Had some stored ammo from 1997. Fired as factory ammo, wiped clean, and loaded with IMR4198-20.5 grs., Win 55gr fmjbt, Federal brass. Wilson gaged, ok. OAL 2.244"

He ejected 2 shells because the bolt would not close fully and then rechambered a new round. I noticed he was having problems closing the bolt , a little to late. I was thinking a shoulder wasn't pushed back enough on FL sizing.

When i looked thru the brass he fired, i seen the missing neck. Lucky the bolt didn't close fully.

Had this before with stored vinegar washed brass, that turned brown for ageing. Thought it was the vinegar. Not.

I am almost 100% sure its because my old RCBS FL die over worked the neck area?? The new die set doesn't seem to when taking measurements.

The moral of the story is- Always keep an eye on the new shooter for any problems.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I'm glad all worked out ok.

I can imagine someone I love getting hurt in a kaboom. I'm sure you're the same way.

And thanks for the reminder. We sometimes forget that newbies don't have our experience.

 

[Doc7]

If the bolt didn't close fully how did it fire?

 

[LoonWulf]

Glad no one was injured, and good catch.

Ive had brass come apart like that with a number of my shells after they have had a bunch of cycles thru them. I attribute it to neck hardening from work, or possible over work. Regular annealing usually solves the issue, but i started just tossing out .223 and other cheap cases after 2 or 3 loads (or when i lost them).

 

[243winxb]

If the bolt didn't close fully how did it fire?

A round fired, leaving the neck in the chamber. The next 2 rounds didnt chamber. On extracting the last unfired round, it pulled the neck out of the chamber. The next round chambered normally and fired.

 

[Blue68f100]

Good catch. It would have been a good teaching time for a young shooter.

All my rifle brass gets annealed after cleaning. I've had yet to get a spit/crack neck.

The only way to not over work the necks is with a Bushing die, neck sizing or custom sized sizer.

 

[IMtheNRA]

So, this is only once fired brass? Why do you think the sizing die.caused this problem?

 

[grampajack]

Yikes, that'll induce a pucker for sure. Glad nothing happened and everyone is okay, including the rifle.

 

[243winxb]

Why do you think the sizing die.caused this problem?

The expander was almost impossible to remove from the sized brass. The inside of the necks were lubed.

Remove the expander from an RCBS fl die . Size the brass . Measure the outside diameter of the necks. Some dies will sized down more then needed by .010"

I honed out the old 1979 fl die neck area. Seems to help. Just have to store brass another 20 years to test. (Age 72)

My newer 2010 set is much better.

Can't beat bushing dies. Have one in 243 win.

 

[hdwhit]

243winwb wrote:
Had this before with stored vinegar washed brass, that turned brown for ageing. Thought it was the vinegar.

No matter what the particular acid might be (acetic, citric, oxolic, etc.), it must be thoroughly rinsed off the brass or else the residue will keep working.

 

[z7]

You should see what happens when a 20mm Gatlin gun has that happen, can you say $100,000 repairs for damaged barrels, mounts, motor, and ammo handling mechanisms

Glad nobody was hurt and we all get a reminder to pay attention when shooting and to be cautious whenever things do not go as expected

 

[Slamfire]

Had some stored ammo from 1997. Fired as factory ammo, wiped clean, and loaded with IMR4198-20.5 grs., Win 55gr fmjbt, Federal brass. Wilson gaged, ok. OAL 2.244"

I think it is more probable that you have deteriorated gunpowder attacking the brass . Let's go over some obvious points: twenty year old ammunition loaded with powder that has to be older than twenty years. How old was the 4198?

Most shooters believe powder is immortal. It is not. Gunpowder is breaking down from the day it leaves the factory. As it breaks down it releases NOx. Stablizers are in the powder to sop up the NOx but they get eaten up in time. That is when outgassing NOx becomes a problem. One of the by products of NOx is nitric acid gas. You don't see it or smell it until powder is dangerous, but it is there.

Nitric acid gas attacks brass, such as mid 90's N140 did to these cases.



Surplus AA2520 took a lot of case necks off cases I fired in my Garand. I just pictured one, I had more that came apart like this:

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said above, it's most likely deteriorating powder ate away at the brass. You said it was brown, that is the biggest clue.

I doubt your RCBS die overworked the brass, at least no more than any other die would. If overwriting caused that separation I think you would have had neck tension problems well before the cases came apart like those did.

 

[243winxb]

Vinegar-

No matter what the particular acid might be (acetic, citric, oxolic, etc.), it must be thoroughly rinsed off the brass or else the residue will keep working.

The chemical reaction needs to be deactivated with a rinse in baking soda. This is what i have been told. Have not tested it.
The chemical reaction on the brass has an effect only after many years. Doesn't happen over night.

 

[243winxb]

deteriorated gunpowder attacking the brass

The powder maybe? Purchased in 1979 for loading an M16A1. Last can used just last year. So, its old now. Stored at 60/70 degrees in damp basement.

Or the chemical residue left in the case neck from firing and not cleaning it, attacked the brass?

But...
The vinegar brass turned brown.
The current old brass was wiped with a towel and loaded, its bright and shiny.

The 10 - 1 pound cans of powder did age over many years. The last can had developed the reddish dust, from the metal rusting. Imo.

This old photo of the brown brass doesnt show the color very well. I did try annealing some of the old brown brass years ago. It did not make the brass soft again, even when over done.

 

[MEHavey]

I did try annealing some of the old brown brass years ago....

Hmmmmm....
What technique did you use in that annealing trial?


.

 

[Slamfire]

The powder maybe? Purchased in 1979 for loading an M16A1. Last can used just last year. So, its old now. Stored at 60/70 degrees in damp basement.

View attachment 760225

It is the powder. Shoot the stuff up before it gets 20 years old, then you won't have any problems. Keep it longer than 20 years, and it starts dying.

 

[243winxb]

What technique did you use in that annealing trial?

With the old brown brass, first i tried the head in water method, just making the neck/shoulder glow.
Then i over did it on purpose. Should have been soft enough to collapse the case mouth with my thump and finger. (This happen when i first over did some 243 brass)
Brass remained hard.

 

[243winxb]

Very different RCBS expanders. The old 1979 was almost impossible to pull through the lubed necks, at times. Some neck walls are thicker then others. Felt almost like a donut had formed at the neck/shoulder junction. This would work harden the neck when no annealing was done.

But.....
The brass in the first photo was only loaded 1 time and put in storage.

So, maybe the powder?? I may never know for sure.

 

[Slamfire]

So, maybe the powder?? I may never know for sure.

Sure you will, any brass loaded with that powder is simply going to fail through brass cracking within months of being loaded. Then you will figure out, it ain't the sizing die or the neck expander. I have already been through this with most of my "surplus" powders, of which I will never buy again. I have had to toss out 80% to 90% of the stuff. It is my recollection that these 308 Win cases were loaded for less than one year, with mid nineties AA4064, with caused all the brass cracking.








This is 1960's Norma factory ammunition, you are not experiencing this level of corrosion, but give it time.



You are probably experiencing some in case corrosion, probably some green on the bottom of the bullets of loaded ammunition. Maybe it is just a few dots, but it will get worse.




Gunpowder does not last forever, and it deteriorates exponentially faster in heat.



Old gunpowder will blow up guns. The Pakistani's probably laughed all the way to the bank. Silly American's bought all their old 303 British ammunition, thinking it was "day old bread". One of the nasties of old ammunition is that pressures rise, and once in a while, it blows up guns.



Gunpowder follows the laws of thermodynamics, it is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound. Along the way, to a zero energy state, it gets more dangerous.

 

[MEHavey]

Annealing...

With the old brown brass...just making the neck/shoulder glow....

Bingo ! That brass is now -- in all likelihood -- overheated/burned toast.
(The fact that you're getting those kind of neck separations is classic evidence.)

 

[243winxb]

Annealing...Bingo ! That brass is now -- in all likelihood -- overheated/burned toast.
(The fact that you're getting those kind of neck separations is classic evidence.)

No. I took the already defective brown brass to see if it could be corrected by annealing. It could not. Brass was never previously annealed. It remained brittle.

 

[Bozrdang]

So does this mean it's a bad idea to buy the old military surplus M2 Ball ammo for the Garand?

I was planning to buy a Garand and some ammo from the CMP and was wanting to reload down the road.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So does this mean it's a bad idea to buy the old military surplus M2 Ball ammo for the Garand?

I was planning to buy a Garand and some ammo from the CMP and was wanting to reload down the road.

I bought 4 sealed cans and 2 ammo cans of Greek M1 Garand 30-06 ammo from CMP. I left the sealed cans sealed but I did shoot the ammo from the two ammo cans. I think that was 480 rounds of 30-06. I processed the brass and have loaded each case at least 4 times already, maybe 5x. The original surplus ammo shot just fine in my M1 Garand and the reloads shot even better in the Garand, a M1917 and an 03-A3. It's not a bad idea to buy ammo from CMP IMO.

 

[hdwhit]

win243xb wrote:
The chemical reaction needs to be deactivated with a rinse in baking soda. This is what i have been told.

Passivation of weak acids is not necessary. A thorough rinsing with hot water, three or four times is sufficient. I have brass cases washed with vinegar or polished with ammonia in the 1980-1982 timeframe and loaded with IMR-4198 that have fired perfectly and been reloaded again after their long slumber with no problems.