Am I just getting old here?

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It's funny reading threads like these. I have been an avid car enthusiast for years and I see the same sort of "factions" arising there.

There are the guys who like to buy/own their vettes/camaros/whatever and leave them completely stock. They wash and wax them 3 times a week (with the proper 100% cotton non-marring washcloths and expertly formulated cleaning/polishing waxes). They laugh at the kids/youngins/whippersnappers who put thousands upon thousands of dollars into their cars to make them look/sound different and/or go faster/stop faster/turn faster/etc. Especially since in the end they generally look uglier and become less reliable.

The same goes vice-versa of course. The hot rodders laugh at the "waxers" because what's the point of having such a fine car if it's not faster/louder/flashier than anyone elses?

So on and so forth. The firearms guys are the same way. The Zumbos laugh at the new-fangled ARs (designed over 50 years ago is "new" apparently) and their incessant need to have everything black and tacticool. The younger guys just scratch their heads and wonder what the fascination with wood stocks is all about anyway.

Humorous I guess. I happen to like them all (cars and guns alike, well except Mustangs - uh oh! ;) ). Anyone who disparages the "other" side is probably just an elitist jerk who feels the need to feel superior to everyone else. There are an awful lot of people like this in this thread.

Dope
 
I understand a lot more than some might think

If a shoot is good, its good.

Problem 2 I know about, and over the years Sensory Input has affected Jury's of one's peers.
Just like it has politicians, and news reporters.

During the voir dire, they really do ask if folks watch, or have watched CSI.
CSI Syndrome does occur and is a concern with trials.

Contact Mas Ayoob, John Farham and others, that have been asked to be expert witnesses.

Zundfolge reminded me of the "The Gary Fadden incident", recently, do an Internet search.
Do take note of the $45,000 "part" of legal fee...

Everyone needs to attend a Jury Trial, and really see what all goes on.

I have assisted in investigation, gathering information, been a witness, character witness, "experience witness", on the jury, Foreman of a Jury and other Courtroom related matters.

If it is a good shoot it is good.

Still one has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are innocent.
This costs not only money and time, also emotions, mental stresses, taxes family stability , and job security.

Civil action still may be filed against you, if are not found guilty.

You may win and survive all this, still it costs money, and it may cost a job, the ability to get another job, divorce, seeing your kids, and so much more.

Cut to the chase:

I am going to name names, as an example, I know these folks won't mind.

Shotgun trigger is slapped, in a defensive situation:

Larry Correia, 3 gunner, competitor, business owner Saiga is used.
Now he has credentials, he is married, college educated and a respected member of the community.
Jury may see a black semi auto shotgun, still with all the witnesses, and Professionals that can testify ...

Okie , just a SxS shooter, Professional in the Medical Field, he too, has credentinals, and...

Armchair Commando, has a Ultimate Shotgun, no creds, no professional life, no real shooting experience.
This person posts pictures on the Internet and all sorts of false BS.


They can and will get your computer, and check with ISP and find your posts.

Correia and Okie, they get all this evidence, get a case prepped and go to court and there is that Saiga and SxS...

Armchair's Ultimate is in a courtroom too, with his pics, posts, You-Tube video acting a fool and not very safe.

One is responsible for what they do, and perceptions in a courtroom are real, and real damn serious.

Nothing wrong with a black shotgun and stuff hanging off of it, just the true responsible firearm owner with this set up - is responsible.

That is why some of us are not against such responsible folks, instead the Armchair folks, and we do not mean to paint with a broad brush, anymore than you do, that paint older, traditional folks as being Fudds, or other stereotypes.

I am serious, if one of these Armchairs show up for court, and has not heeded attorney's advise on dress code and appear dressed as they normally do...
They are screwed blue and tattooed in the first 5 minutes of a trial.

Juries are reading everything! Every little detail of a party, not just the words, tone and inflection, but every time they move a hand to face, fidget, close eyes, turn head, reach for a pen/pencil to write something down, attorney whispers in their ear, and they the attorney's - every and anything is being read in response to anything going on in the trial.

Oh we can all have fun, interact, agree to disagree, just we have many young folks that have not lived as long as others, that do not have the upbringing as some, do not have experiences as others do and not mature at all.

This immature behavior reflects badly on all responsible firearm owners, and add to the expense of responsible firearms in a courtroom, reflects badly with Politicians, and MSM.

Something to think about...
 
Sm, that is one of the best posts I've ever seen on an Internet gun forum. It might even be the very best I've ever seen. It's the real goods. These lines, especially, sweep away all the nonsense:

If it is a good shoot it is good.

Still one has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt they are innocent.
This costs not only money and time, also emotions, mental stresses, taxes family stability , and job security.

Civil action still may be filed against you, if are not found guilty.

You may win and survive all this, still it costs money, and it may cost a job, the ability to get another job, divorce, seeing your kids, and so much more.
Click to expand...

I don't know how many people will recognize their debt to you for that, Steve, but it's a real debt. Reality has ugly ways of correcting fantasy.
 
Robert,

Call me Steve please.
You and I are from a different era, and raised as we were.

Dammit to hell, we have some folks cycling into Firearms and Forums that need a dose of reality, whether they want to read it or not.

I don't meddle, except when safety and some other "right things" have to be done in life,
Just like sharing with a new person to not mix Parson's Ammonia and Clorox bleach together is a responsible thing to do, for safety reasons and not meddling reasons...

This firearm business is serious business too!
 
a further questions as to impressions with juries?

Sirs and Ladies-
I currently clerk for a criminal defense attorney, so I realize, or rather I am beginning to comprehend, how important perceptions in shaping jurors minds as to guilt or innocence. My question to Mr. Hairless and Mr. SM, along with any other members of the board who would like to chime in, is this- would a Remington Marine Magnum be considered too "tacticool" in court- it is the same implement used by many police forces, only with the nickle plating. I appreciate any and all comments, so long as they are constructive.

Thank You in advance for your time.
 
Cato,
A Marine Magnum IME, is not a negative thing to a jury.
Granted , some of my experiences I base this on go back a few years, and some of the brainwashing of the masses is not as it is today.

It will depend on the intent of the user, and again my experiences were of law abiding folks, that were being responsible firearm owners.

Same gun used by criminal, would have changed perceptions due to criminal's intent.

A law abiding person, being responsible, and taking prudent steps any person would do in a same situation , is going to have his /her attorney bring up, and out in the open, this shotgun is finished to resist the weather, and exposures to elements consistent with use around water.

Quote the mfg's specs and why that Nickel finish is offered and recommended in certain environments . Continue with letters with letterheads from agencies that issue that gun for wet enviroments.

Have a witness perhaps.
<swear in>

"Yes I a am J.Q Public and I am a catfish farmer in Small Town , Mississippi.
I use a Rem Marine Magnum on the farm. I have a depredation permit, and have assistance from the local Game & Fish.

See we have pests that come to eat the catfish and do damage to the fish farm, which is a special lake if you will. I am out in a boat, and dealing with water, feed, and other things to keep my catfish crop healthy and safe.
I chose that nickel finish to protect my gun, in these conditions and being shiny, it adds a safety feature, as it is seen easier being mounted in the boats as we do..."

"Re direct?"

"No questions your Honor"

"You may step down Mr. Public".


This still costs money...
 
Cato the Younger, I'm not a criminal defense attorney or even a criminal, so all I can offer is the opinion of Robert the Older. I don't think the nickel plate should matter much one way or the other.

What I think Steve is talking about is in part cultural symbolism. Let's get past the "Don't judge a book by a cover" phase. Yes, it's wrong to judge a book by its cover. But people do it anyway. I doubt that there's anyone within the sound of my voice who doesn't do it.

You're in an ideal position to recognize that. Surely your criminal-defense-attorney employer has at least some clients who don't always wear a suit, white or blue shirt, and necktie when they come to his office, or are always clean shaven and well groomed and look like choir boys on the way to church.

How does he dress them for court? Does he advise them to wear their "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet" or "Molon Labe" or "Protected by Smith & Wesson" T shirt there? My guess is that he tries to have them look neat, clean, and non-threatening. Do likewise.

First impressions are sometimes all that anyone has. Sometimes they're hard to overcome. And sometimes they're impossible to overcome.

Anyway, I don't understand why some people want to look like what they're not. Someone who is Rambo, capable of beating all challengers, and interested in proving it at any moment is at least the real goods. That man is looking for trouble. I'm not Rambo, consider myself only minimally competent, and don't want to hurt anyone at all. I'm not looking for trouble. And I grow old very well indeed. It's part of my skillset. :)
 
I think sm's post falls into the sad but too often true category. The other day I ran into the "liberal" Marine. I had heard about him and wanted to chat with him about some of his views. Seems he wanted to ban assault rifles because of "what they can do". I tried to get him to explain what the difference was between the legal mini-14 and the illegal AR-15 and the legal versions of AR-15s in his home state of California and well... of course he couldn't. So after a bunch of circular talking I laid my rifle on the deck (Marines hate that) and said I wanted to see it.

Him: "See what"
Me: "See what they can do"
Waiting a minute.
Him: "---"
Me: "It is not doing anything. I would really like to see it do something."
Nudge it with my toe.
Him: "---"
Me: "It is still not doing anything. But I know in my heart that the gun is evil because it can do evil things right?"
Him: "That is pretty good...."

So long as people are convinced the tools are evil based on the way they look than that is an issue. But it still won't keep me from using the best tools to defend me and my family.
 
Well, if nothing else I can whip people into 5 pages, so I still have it.
Okay, one more gem from my experience. There are 11 guys that I shoot with consistantly. I've known most of them since high school. Seven of them have HD shotguns that look an awfull lot like their feild guns. If trouble were to hit I would feel warm and comfy having any of them taking my 6. The other 4 have these objects at home that look like something out of a Sci-Fi movie. Three of those are real nice guys, we play poker alot, they take my money. But they can't shoot. In the field, a rabbit bolts and the only thing safe is that rabbit. The fourth is different. He's been places and done things that most internet folks only pretend they'd like to do. He's been in situations where it was okay to identify threats with a weapon mounted light, because everything was a threat. We talk alot late at night because he doesn't sleep. His dreams are filled with nightmares of jammed weapons, empty mags and holding back blood from wounds. He dreams of these things because he's lived these things. He talks to me because he knows I don't sleep either, we all have our dreams. In a scrap, he won't have my 6, I'll have his. He's used to rushing head first into nastiness. But you know what? I still make fun of his decked out SG.
 
In a perfect world, self defense would remain self defense regardless of the tools used for it. Unfortunately, the masses out there are tool stupid and perceptions sometimes need to be taken into account. I wouldn't lose sleep over keeping a short barreled, high cap pump in the house for self defense, but I don't know if I'd want something with a 50 round drum mag and a pistol grip for the reasons you worry about. A SAIGA? Nah, not me. I can do the job of safe room defense just as well with a normal shotgun. I keep my coach gun at the ready, but I have a 500 and if I thought 2 rounds weren't enough, I'd load the magazine and live happy. Of course, I'd have to pull the plug or I'd be at no advantage, LOL. I don't even know if I'd bother with a shorter barrel, no need, really. It is a camo model. Wonder what a jury would think of that? LOL!
 
I don't see anything wrong with an 870 pump, with a Surefire light. I don't think putting a light on the end of a home defense shotgun makes it disco. If anything, it makes you a more responsible gun owner because you can more easily identify your target.
 
There is not.

Do a search for those reviews of Awerbuck's defensive shotgun courses.
Awerbuck will go over the pro's and con's of each shotgun make, and model.

He reminds students, he will not be at their gunfight, and he does not specify a particular make, model or gauge of shotgun has to be used for defensive use.

He will suggest, a shorter LOP, gun fit to shooter, patterning the gun, shooting for slug groups, reliable ammunition, the shooter knowing how to run the gun, keep it fed, deal with any problems that might arise, a sling for transition drill and a light.

He will access a shooters specific concerns about where they live, environment they may find themselves having to use a shotgun for defensive needs, loads and all.

He carries a double barrel shotgun for defensive use on his travels.
He knows this gun, is one with the gun, it is easy to transport, easy to break down when traveling through areas not kind to firearms and firearm owners and it is more 'Politically Correct and Anesthetically Acceptable" to Police, Judges and Juries.


There is no Holy Grail in anything, one must access for themselves what jurisdiction they are in, political flavor they are in , or will be in, and know what they can do with any choice they make.

It does not make a tinker's damn what a Police Dept, LEO Agency, Coast Guard, Military branch or sub branch of issues, uses or has for special tasks if that gun is not legal, is in negative flavor with where one lives with judges, juries and legislation, the shooter cannot shoot it, and other factors such as never shot the thing, much less had any lessons, or is aware of legal use of force where they are, or might be.


WE got a bunch of ijits that own a firearm/shotgun doing more harm to responsible firearm owners, and freedom than tyranny does .

Matters get serious, I want the lady or gent with the well worn SxS in 20 bore, well worn Model 10 with standard pressure loads and Case pocket knife with patina on CV blades watching my six!

I and lady or gent are going to run the opposite direction of TEEM TACK-TICKLE dressed like Rambo, with a Ultimate Extreme Shotgun loaded with Exotic shotgun shells, Less Lethal, and Dragon's Breath rounds with the thigh holster with the Deagle , and $200 whoopie-doo knife they cannot open without acting like Bruce Lee on Meth- that does not know come here from sic 'em.

Sorry man, but dead is forever and forever is a long damn time!

WE are not speaking of persons with maturity, common sense, some lessons, training and all having a syn stocked shotgun, with a side saddle, or light, we are speaking of folks that strut and parrot BS from TV, Movies, Video Games and teh Intrawebz

You a Cop, and have training to use a short shotgun for breeching, - fine, having one you own for quality training makes sense.

You in the Military, and were trained to use the breeching shotgun, again no problem if you have one and keep skills up, you may indeed go back to the sandbox.

You a armored car guard and the issued shotgun is PGO, and you have to shoot qualifications, fine, makes sense , and I have suggested to guards I assisted in training get one when they could and practice with light loads working up to issued 00 buck.

Responsible Firearm Ownership means passing forward what is true and correct.

Not this BS some waste bandwith posting about.

Investigate & Verify.


Steve
 
trbon8r:

I don't see anything wrong with an 870 pump, with a Surefire light. I don't think putting a light on the end of a home defense shotgun makes it disco. If anything, it makes you a more responsible gun owner because you can more easily identify your target.
Click to expand...

I have no quarrel with what you've just said. If there's a problem with this thread it's the possibility of confusion about its central point.

That point is that hardware does not substitute for ability. The question always is "Can you run the gun?" Can you operate it, move with it, and hit with it.

If you're not one with that shotgun--if it's not part of you--and if you fumble the controls, need to look at them, must think your way through each shot, can't load or reload it smoothly, or are preoccupied with its mechanics, then you can't run the gun and that's a problem. No accessories will solve or reduce it. What several people here have explained is that accessories can even retard your progress or prevent you from getting where you need to be. Have you ever gone to the range and watched somebody keep fiddling with his shotgun between every few shots? He's not there. He can't run that gun and it's useless for serious work. In contrast have you ever seen someone in constant motion (right, left, in, out, behind cover, from one point to another, here one time there another) while shooting his shotgun well beyond its magazine capacity without unnecessary delays and always moving and always hitting? Better believe that he's there and don't argue with him about it or he'll ignore or sneer at you.

If that second person has a light on his shotgun it's there for good reason and he knows how to use it. But whether it's a bare shotgun or one with modifications, there's a reason for everything and nothing is aspirational, presumptuous, non utilitarian, or merely decorative.

So the point is not that the presence of a Surefire forend signals incompetence. It doesn't mean anything at all in and of itself. But if you can't run the gun and can't make the hits, not one of these guys will respect you because you have the Surefire, a Speedfeed stock, Sidesaddle, Vang-Comp, Vickers sling, or anything else. Mere stuff doesn't transfer basic competence or simulate it. The old guys here are talking about competence and skill. It's easy to judge: either you can do whatever is required or you can't, and it's not a matter of opinion or merely a way to put other people down, and it's not a surefire kind of thing.

There is some reverse snobbery at play in this thread, but it has been earned and my own sense is that it's a way to reject basic incompetence and the tendency to acquire things to disguise lack of competence. But there's real truth in it and in any event it really doesn't matter. If you can do what I've described, you don't care what anyone else thinks. You keep watching for information and tips so you can continue to learn and improve, and words are no threat to your self esteem. If you can't do what I've described, though, start listening hard, closely, and carefully. Only hits count. Everything else is a problem to be solved, an evasion to be removed, or an excuse to be ignored. Louis Awerbuck is a kind man and a gentleman. I've never heard him say "You miss great." Don't miss great.

There's are a couple of other things at the heart of these comments. First, I think that Dave McCracken wrote one of his small essays on the nature of shotguns and posted it in this forum. I read it some time ago, remember that it's good, and if my memory is accurate it reflects the basic orientation shared by people who commune with shotguns used in serious work. Second, and infinitely more sensitive, I know that it is fashionable to believe that young people know more than their seniors and much better too--about everything. Write it off to Nature's screw up. Nature just wasn't smart enough to have people born old and inexperienced, then get progressively younger and smarter until eventually they vanish in a poof of smoke with ultimate wisdom. Time doesn't roll backwards where learning is concerned. Maybe Nature will get smarter eventually. Until then it would be a real kindness to pretend that people with the experience demonstrated in this forum actually know things worth learning even though they're not fifteen years old, which is the peak of intelligence among human males. It makes the old guys feel better and keeps them out of our hair, or whatever we're wearing nowadays as beacons to keep errant airplanes from crashing into the tops of our heads.
 
a friend of mine actually sold off his knoxx stock and eotech from his 870 infavor of a plain stock and a set of ghost ring sights

he strarted thinking about all the crap he had failing


as for me i hav a remington sxs......with an eotech jk
 
I figure only buy what works and what you need and to hell with the rest. However, if there's something like a new stock that has nothing to break, then go for it. Also, never ever trust the company's claims about their own products. If you want some "ninja crap" then ask the people that bought it. They'll tell you if it works or not.

BTW, I've heard Surefires work and are tough as nails but I've figured out lasers are kinda fragile and thus not suited for a heavy recoiling weapon like, for an example, a .32 auto.

Edit: Sorry buddy I forgot to flame you like you mentioned. Here you go. :fire:
 
Not sure how anyone can say a Knoxx stock that was purchased with the shotgun (as Remington now sells them on their units as stock, stocks) can be viewed as a Ninja toy.

I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.

THANKS - Apology accepted
 
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wileycoyote,

I owe you an apology.

Actually, I agree to some extent with your observation:
I'm new here but one thing I can and will say (I'm sure I will get in trouble for this, but I don't care) people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative.... and they like to trash others.
Click to expand...

And I originally posted:
Hmm out of the mouth of a newbie, perhaps?
Click to expand...
This was not meant as a pejorative to you, but rather to acknowledge an insightful comment by a new THR member. Upon reflection however, I thought my "newbie" comment was patronizing to you and thus deleted it.

By the way, welcome to THR
 
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"Have you ever gone to the range and watched somebody keep fiddling with his shotgun between every few shots? He's not there."

Yeah, me. Well, is wasn't my only shotgun, just my newest and I was fumbling. A man has to practice, you know? If he's smart he practices. ;)


"people on this board are over opinionated, and argumentative"

Don't you ever argue with your brothers, sisters or buddies? Relax.


As much as I've tried shaking the feeling, I still feel like a well-lit target when I have a light on my gun.

John
 
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