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America's Great Gun Game--a new book on gun control

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Yup Same ole same ole, just a new printing. His opinions in his letter above show that while he may indeed be a "learned" individual he does not truly understand the constitution or the BOR He is also deliberatly leavine out the KEEP part of the 2nd.(I'd like to say he is also dumber than a box of rocks but that wouldn't be very high road)
 
Obviously your good buddy McDowell is either as naive as a six year old child, living in his sheltered Ivory Tower there in good ol' extremely left wing U.of Minn., or, he is just another smug, self righteous, disingenuous elitist, who kowtows to all the other left wing liberal elitists in his peer group who demand eventual gun confisication. They all think exactly alike, brains in lock step.

Really? You know the man and can make this assumption? If you want to speak in generalities, then it stands to reason that you are a potato growing miltia member that has a llama named Tina.

Look, I am not supporting his book, but it is tactically sound to know what your opponent is thinking. You can bet that they read our literature. Simply blathering back that he is a socialist, an idiot, or just wrong isn't helping anything, in my opinion. Frankly, I want the guy to come here, I want to engage him in a debate, and I want him to leave here feeling that we are high road. Thus far it seems like the bulk of us would rather come across as either militant a-holes or disinterested hermits, and I don't think that is going to encourage the guy to come here and debate with us.
 
TimboKhan,

I agree, and well said.

FWIW, I have several at least twice as many posts on Democratic Underground (including the gun issue) as I do on THR. Not all gun owners are at the right end of the political spectrum. Calling a prohibitionist a "communist" or "socialist" is merely a distraction from the real issue, that of his/her views on Authority--and don't forget that Sarah Brady is a rather conservative Republican, and William J. Bennett was behind the original Federal AWB under Bush I.

We will be much better off engaging opposing academics than calling them names. "You're a poopiehead" and its derivatives have very little cachet in the legislative realm...
 
Ordered it along with Supica's Standard Catalog of Smith & Wessons from Amazingcom figuring my yin/yang balanced out well in so doing.

I look forward to seeing just how exhaustive and analytical 180 pages of rhetoric on Gun Ownership vs Americans Safety can be.

As I posted earlier, I will do so with a jaundiced eye. Life, let alone America, is not "Safe". It has never ever been so. Nor, I suspect, will it ever be.

Unless we are all drugged out zombies doing the hive mind thing, there will always be those who march to a different drummer and also those who will steal, rob and kill that drummer, using whatever tool at hand that can apply force.

(grumbing... americans safety...) Safe: Free from risk or danger
 
For the record, the Second Amendment of the Constitution - "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed" - does not give citizens the right to bear arms. In fact, the intent of the Second Amendment was to protect citizens from a tyrannical government by permitting states to form militias.

Yeah, and the First Amendment guarantees the right of the states to issue press releases.

People who can't read plain eighteenth century English shouldn't try to write.
 
For example, McDowell supports licensing and registration of all firearms, but does not want to take them all away from us.
Well, I haven't read the book and in all likelihood I won't.

But I am curious, however. Since he doesn't want to take all firearms away from us - just which of these licensed and registered firearms does he want to take away from us?

:scrutiny:
 
Americas Great Gun Game: Gun Ownership vs. American's Safety

I'm Earl McDowell. Thank you for your comments. In order for you to understand why I support gun control, please go to iUniverse and write my name. You will be able to read the preface, contents, Chapter 1 and part of Chapter 2 of my book, America's Great Gun Game: Gun Ownership vs. Americans' Safety.

Now that you have read about me and my conversion to support both state and federal gun control, let me tell you a bit more about myself. At one time I owned three guns, but I didn't want them in my house as my daughters were growing up. In addition, I strongly support hunters as my grandfather, father, and brother were all avid hunters. During my teeage years I enjoyed hunting, but I enjoyed target shooting more than hunting small game and deer. My daughter who is a forensic scientist for the Illinois State police also enjoys target shooting. This has nothing to do with this topic, but when I meet someone the first thing I tell them is that I have run 17 marathons.

Let me tell you a little bit more about my book. In Chapter 2, The Second Amendment and National Rifle Association, I cite two Supreme Court Justices, the former president of ABA, and the former dean of Harvard Law School. All of these constitutional scholars state that there is a need to revisit the Second Amendment and to interpret it for the 21st century. For example, former Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger stated, "The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any type of weapon." The best quote in the chapter is James Brady, Ronald Reagan's Press Secretary. He doubted that "...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence, when high powered military-style weapons like AK47s with 30-round magazines are available on the streets, when a 14-year-old can take his father's gun and mow down his classsmates, or when parents leave a loaded pistol around and a two year old can easily fire it."

In chapters three through five I discuss gun movements and gun laws since 1922. I cite Attorney General Homer Cummings several times in my book. He was Franklin Roosvelt's Attorney General and was the architect for the 1934 and 1938 federal gun laws. He said: "Show me a man who doesn't want his gun registered, and I will show you a man who shouldn't have a gun." I spent hundreds of hours researching and writing this part of the book and have only received positive feedback on it.

The last five chapters focus on guns and women, guns and children, handguns, concealed weapons and what I call 'REALITY TIME."

As I indicated above I carefully read your emails. Although some of them seem mean spirited, I was surprised that several said you would read the book, but not buy it. Some seemed open-minded. Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confication. This is ridiculous. Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point? Some also questioned the need for licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms, while other thought I should have used the term "illegal guns."
This was an excellent suggestion.

Why do we need licensing of gun owners and registration of guns?

To prevent bulk sales by "straw buyers." Here is how it works. Typically guns are moved from the legal to the illegal market by criminal entrepreneurs, gun traffickers. But since felons cannot pass the federal background check to purchase guns, traffickers hire people who can pass the background checks to stand in for them to make purchases. Traffickers often accompany their straw buyers into gun shows, point out the guns they wish to purchase, provide cash and watch as the straw buyers make buys. Once the purchase is complete, the trafficker and straw buyer exit the store; the latter receives a service fee and the former takes the handguns to which he cannot be tied, as he was not the legal purchaser. This is how it works folks: The handgun will now be passed from the legal to the illegal market and the trafficker will sell his ill-gotten guns on the street corner to thugs, to drug gang members and on playgrounds to violent teens.

Obviously a national system of licensing gun owners and registration of all guns would help to solve this problem. The results would appear to be fewer deaths by firearms. In addition to preventing bulk sales, states can pass "one gun a month" laws.

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to licensing and registration?

Here is a list of things that could be done to reduce illegal trafficking (each of these points is amplified by Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.)

1. develop a gun tracing database.
2. combine data from different jurisdictions
3. supplement databases with information from police investigations
4. undercover stings of gun dealers
5. increase oversight and inspection of gun deals
7. reduce illegal gun carrying
8. personalize guns
9. encourage use of BATEF's and NIBIM system
10. require gun manufactuers to micro-stamp their guns

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to these methods?

In addition, the NRA constantly states that the judiciary needs to enforce the laws on the books. For example, Wayne Lapierre, executive vice-president of the NRA, has stated before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime that it is reasonable to have mandatory background checks for gun-show weapon sales, that it is reasonabe to prevent all juveniles convicted of felonies from owning guns for life, that it is reasonable to support the federal Gun-Free Zone Act and that it reasonable to expect the full enforcement of Federal firearm laws by the federal government. I don't know anyone who doesn't agree with LaPierre's statement.

This is the part where gun control supporters disagree with gun rights advocates. LaPierre states: "We think that it is reasonable to demand that when a lawful gun buyer passes the criminal background check and purchases a firearm, records of the transaction should be destroyed immediately." This is NONSENSE. Why don't we do the same with cars? The reason is that we want to be able to track the car if it is stolen and to be able to link the car to the owner. Eight-eight percent of women and 73 percent of males agree with me.

My last point deals with guns and women and guns and children. The statistics are overwhelming and easily accessible on the internet. I cite many statisitics in my book, and I am very careful in drawing conclusions. It is obvious we have too many guns in our society. Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated." She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths." She concluded her speech with "A handgun in the home turns so many situations lethal." In fact over 750 spouses each year are killed by firearms. As far as I know no one gave their spouse a lethal injection, but a few were poisoned.

There are over 500 organizations operating to stop gun violence against women and chicdren. Many organizations exist in most states. I am proud to be associated with Citizens for a Safer Minnesota. You can identify organizations in your state by going to the internet and writing the name of your state and "gun violence organizations"

As I wrote at the beginining, I appreciate your emails. I certainly would like you to buy my book. No matter what your viewpoint, I think you would find it interesting and thought provoking. I don't know how many members are in your organization, but you can get excellent reductions by purchasing more that 20 copies. If you do this and don't like the book, you can give the book to the gentleman from Colorado to help him start fires. More importantly, contact your local anti-gun violence organization and make a contribution. I have already made enough money to buy a cup of coffee.
 
This honest man doesn't want his guns registered. I guess it all boils down to the intent of the second amend. If a gun isn't a militarily capable weapon, then it is a toy, for a hobby.

The second amendment doesn't guarantee me the right to have a hobby.

You sir are a masochist for posting here.

Some people see tragedy and think safety, I see tragedy and I think standard deviation.
 
Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point?

Do I get to be the first to remind everyone of New Orleans, Louisiana and Hurricane Katrina?

ETA: Sincerely, though, I thank you, Mr. McDowell for having the courage to post here. I hope my comments have not and will not come across as too flippant, and if they have, or do, I apologize.
 
One of the issues, to me, is that registration and "gun control" makes me prove myself innocent, before there is any inkling that I have done anything wrong.

This goes against everything our laws were founded on; innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And I have a right to do as I please as long as I am harming no other person or others' property. My simply acquiring a firearm does not automatically mean I am any sort of criminal or prone to criminal activity.

Also, you ask, essentially, if firearms owners have nothing to hide, what are they worried about? In the same line of reasoning you must support virtually strip searching everyone at the airport, tapping everyone's phone lines and making everyone present proper state-issued identification upon any demand by a government official whether the request is legitimate or not. I find this all very disturbing.

Essentially, then, what you advocate is total government control over the people. In this, it is forgotten that "they," the government, are hired and work for "us," the general public. Tell me, if you were to hire an employee, would you give them such power? Essentially pay them to be your boss?

I should probably stop here for now. Hopefully this makes sense...
 
former Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger
Ah, yes, quoted in the most elite of peer-reviewed journals, Parade magazine. I believe Dave Kopel once said that particular article was more or less the high-water mark of anti-gun "scholarship."

Attorney General Homer Cummings
I really couldn't..never mind. I'm sorry, this is all just so much unmitigated horse puckey that's been debunked time and time again, and anyone who hasn't been locked in an ivory tower and is even semi-open minded knows it. Absolutely unworthy of my time and I daresay anyone else's too.
 
Dr. McDowell, welcome to THR!

He doubted that "...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence, when high powered military-style weapons like AK47s with 30-round magazines are available on the streets, when a 14-year-old can take his father's gun and mow down his classsmates, or when parents leave a loaded pistol around and a two year old can easily fire it."

As one of those "AK-47" owners (you are aware, I hope, that actual AK-47's are strictly controlled by the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act), this type of hyperbole doesn't exactly reassure me regarding the intentions of the gun control lobby.

Small-caliber self-loading carbines with modern styling, e.g. AR-15 type rifles, civilian AK lookalikes, SKS's, and whatnot, are the most popular civilian centerfire rifles in America, and are rarely misused. Fighting to ban them shows, IMHO, that the gun-control lobby is far more concerned about lawful ownership than criminal violence, in light of the fact that less than 3% of murders involve ANY type of rifle.

Murder, By State and Type of Weapon (FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2005, Table 20)

Maryland (worst homicide rate of any state, IIRC) had 551 murders in 2005; all rifles combined accounted for 4 of them. Illinois had 448 murders, 4 by rifle. Massachusetts had 171 murders, 1 by rifle. New York had 868 homicides, 10 by rifle. My state of North Carolina had 566 homicides, 20 by rifle. You tell me if rifles are a crime problem...

Of the very small percentage of crimes that DO involve rifles, the most commonly used rifle appears to be the lowly .22 rimfire, not any modern looking "assault weapon," per BATFE trace data--and that is despite the Von Restorff bias in the trace data.

I don't agree with banning revolvers and small pistols, but one could at least pretend that such a ban had something to do with concern about criminal violence. That claim cannot be made for rifles, and making rifle bans a priority shows that the gun-control lobby isn't about criminal violence at all. It's people like my wife and I, and other "black rifle" owners, that you seem to be the most concerned about.

(FWIW, civilian AK lookalikes fire the least powerful of all .30 caliber centerfire rifle rounds; they are not "high powered" by any measure, nor are non-automatic AK variants in 7.62x39mm used by any military on this planet.)

Regarding registration, what you are proposing is a system very similar to that used to eliminate most lawful civilian gun ownership in the UK, and round up self-loaders in Australia. Both internationally and domestically, registration doesn't have a very good track record; it seems that the existence of a "Who Has What?" list leads almost inevitably to the question "Should We Let Them Keep It?", and there's the rub.

At the moment, the fact that the government does not know precisely who owns what is the single biggest deterrent to confiscation of various classes of guns. Given the current political climate, and the legislative agendas of those who believe as you do, I would very much like to keep it that way.

Regarding licensure--I can tell you with 100% certainty that licensure would not appease those who wish to ban handguns or modern-looking rifles. How do I know? By looking at their caricatures of American gun owners who are licensed, e.g. holders of carry licenses. The fact that I have passed multiple criminal background checks, a mental health records check, have taken a class on NC firearms law and self-defense law and passed a written test on same, and have demonstrated proficiency with a handgun in live fire, means absolutely nothing to the Bradyites, if you look at the subnormal intellect and gross incompetence they ascribe to those of us so licensed. There is no reason to believe that their contempt for permit-to-possess licensees would be any less evident, were licensure to pass.

FWIW, here is a little piece I wrote after the 2004 Kerry/Edwards loss, which is IMHO largely vindicated by the '06 results, IMO:

http://www.democraticunderground.co...w_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=97165&mesg_id=97165

The gun issue is NOT about hunting, or hunting-style rifles. It's about handguns, modern-style self-loaders, and guns with post-1861 magazine capacities. Forty to fifty million of us own them, and we are not giving them up.
 
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Welcome to the High Road Dr. McDowell!

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to these methods?

Most of us are opposed to these methods because they represent an unacceptable level of government intrusion into our lives.

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to a police search of his home, auto, or person?

Exactly the same reason.

Would you be opposed to random police searches of your home, auto, or person? You are a law-abiding citizen, right? ;)

Your argument, cited above, gains its strength only from its ability to separate gun owners from the general public. In other words, you try to accomplish your goal (passing more gun laws) by trying to convince the majority to impose its will on a minority. This very type of argument is one of the reasons why the Bill of Rights was adopted - so a majority faction could not trample on the rights of a minority.

Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger stated, "The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any type of weapon."

I find it interesting that you chose to quote Justice Burger in a statement he gave in 1990 (or thereabouts), when there has been a large amount of second amendment scholarship in the past 20 years. Was Justice Burger known for his second amendment scholarship? What evidence did Justice Burger base his opinion on? Why did you not include a quote from Lawrence Tribe, one of the most recognzied constitutional scholars who has extensively researched the second amendment and concluded that it does protect an individual's right to own firearms?

My last point deals with guns and women and guns and children. The statistics are overwhelming and easily accessible on the internet. I cite many statisitics in my book, and I am very careful in drawing conclusions. It is obvious we have too many guns in our society. Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated." She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer. It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths." She concluded her speech with "A handgun in the home turns so many situations lethal." In fact over 750 spouses each year are killed by firearms. As far as I know no one gave their spouse a lethal injection, but a few were poisoned.

As a professor of rhetoric, you'll appreciate this argument. In a country where alcohol was widely available during prohibition, and marijuana, cocaine, and other illegal drugs are available in every U.S. city today, why do you think a total ban on guns would be any different? Just like prohibition did not get rid of alcohol, and just like the war on drugs has not eradicated illegal drugs from our society, a ban on guns will not get rid of guns; instead, only criminals will have guns.

I look forward to your response.
 
Beware any sentence beginning with "It is obvious." Truly obvious things need not be stated. For the purposes of rhetoric, however, it is an attempt to present opinion as fact.

I spent hundreds of hours researching and writing this part of the book and have only received positive feedback on it.

You should probably take this as a sign that you should venture off campus. :)

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to these methods?
1. develop a gun tracing database.
Because they fail to reduce crime while infringing on privacy.

2. combine data from different jurisdictions
Ah, yes. The Tiahrt Fallacy. Your gun-banning comrades continue to spread the lie that police departments can't get gun trace data. But it's just that -- a lie. The truth is that it prevents folks like Mayor Bloomberg from pursuing junk lawsuits against legal businesses.

3. supplement databases with information from police investigations
Law enforcement has all the access they need -- they just aren't allowed to go fishing. This is as it should be.

4. undercover stings of gun dealers
This already happens.

5. increase oversight and inspection of gun deals
Well, the current rigamarole does nothing but cost time, money and freedom. Why assume that more of the same would be any different?

7. reduce illegal gun carrying
Amen! Any ideas how?

8. personalize guns
Some people like to get them engraved. I even saw an AR-15 with pink furniture. Oh, wait. You mean "smart guns," with electronics to recognize their owners? Besides adding a great deal of cost and decreasing functional reliability (a good gun will last over a hundred years, but my cel phones barely make it two years), such nonsense would keep me from trying my friend's gun or using my brother's in an emergency, while doing nothing to prevent the misuse of the 230,000,000 without such electronics. How would that help? Or are you really proposing that all the old ones be rounded up?

9. encourage use of BATEF's and NIBIM system
I've heard of the BATFE, but I don't know what a NIBIM is.

10. require gun manufactuers to micro-stamp their guns
Microstamping is a technology proposed in California to make guns microstamp the bullets and casings of rounds fired. See #8. More cost, lower reliability, trivially easy to defeat, and irrelevant to the 230,000,000 guns already n circulation.


And, yeah, and let's talk a little more about rhetoric. The good doctor's post is filled with logical fallacies.

At one time I owned three guns, but I didn't want them in my house as my daughters were growing up. In addition, I strongly support hunters as my grandfather, father, and brother were all avid hunters. During my teeage years I enjoyed hunting, but I enjoyed target shooting more than hunting small game and deer. My daughter who is a forensic scientist for the Illinois State police also enjoys target shooting.

Red Herring. The Second Amendment is not about hunting or target practice.

In Chapter 2, The Second Amendment and National Rifle Association, I cite two Supreme Court Justices, the former president of ABA, and the former dean of Harvard Law School. All of these constitutional scholars state that there is a need to revisit the Second Amendment and to interpret it for the 21st century.

Appeal to Authority

The best quote in the chapter is James Brady, Ronald Reagan's Press Secretary. He doubted that "...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence, when high powered military-style weapons like AK47s with 30-round magazines are available on the streets...

Sigh. And the Founders certainly never imagined digital printing presses or the Internet. The First Amendment should be restricted to hand-set lead type. Next!

I spent hundreds of hours researching and writing this part of the book and have only received positive feedback on it.
There are over 500 organizations operating to stop gun violence against women and chicdren.
Ad Populum (Appeal to Popularity) -- and not even a representative sample.

Obviously a national system of licensing gun owners and registration of all guns would help to solve this problem.

I cite many statisitics in my book, and I am very careful in drawing conclusions. It is obvious we have too many guns in our society.

Begging the Question

By the way, doc, I carry a gun every time I visit your campus at the University of Minnesota -- and it's perfectly legal. In fact, some 45,000 Minnesotans have carry permits, and are on the order of 40 times more law-abiding than the general population of the state.

It sounds like the system is working fairly well here. And your "Citizens for a Safer Minnesota"? We call that an "Astroturf" organization -- the opposite of real grassroots. In fact, the organization seems to have mostly dried up and blown away since they lost their grant funding from the Joyce Foundation. In its current incarnation, it seems to be a single part-time employee who mostly recycles material from the Joyce-supported Mark Karlin PR Agency of Chicago. (Oh, and by the way, doc? Chicago essentially bans handguns. Murder capitol of the country, on years that gun-banning DC doesn't win.)

Contrast this with, say, the Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance and its Concealed Carry reform, NOW!, which managed to get carry passed -- and re-passed, without big-buck help from out of state.




It looks like the doubters were spot on. Nothing new here, just the same old tired, debunked arguments we've heard for years.
 
I don't know where to begin.

First, history has shown registration leads to confiscation, more often than not. You may not want to confiscate all guns, but other people do.

As far as "straw purchases", prove it! I don't believe for one minute that that is how most "illegal" guns wind up in the hands of criminals. I remember a survey of inmates done a few years back in which they said they stole their guns, and they will always be able to get guns no matter what the laws are. The majority also said they are far more afraid of armed citizens than the police. In fact, legally armed citizens, many with carry permits, stop anywhere between 600,000 to 2.5 million crimes each year, depending on whose study you believe. In the vast majority of these incedents not a single shot is fired. The criminals either give up or run away when confronted by an armed would-be victim. This is the reason why there are so few justifiable homicides, it does not mean few crimes are stopped by legally armed citizens. Look up the studies done by Gary Kleck, John Lott, and others and you will see.
Registration will not have any affect on crime whatsoever. In fact crime will increase if citizens are denied the means to defend themselves. Look at England, whose violent crime rate surpasses our own. They have registration, which did lead to confiscation, and many guns are outlawed
there, yet that doesn't stop the criminals.

Also the 30,000 people killed by "gun violence" is an artificially inflated number. Remove the suicides, justifiable homicides, and accidents and you will have around 10,000-12,000 deaths. This is the actual "violent" deaths. Suicide, while tragic, is not prevented by limiting access to firearms. Look at Japan with virtually no guns, yet they have a suicide rate much higher than the US. Obviously guns have little to do with suicides.
Accidents with guns are a very small proportion of deaths involving firearms, and they have been decreasing, mainly due to more education not increased legislation. Which brings us to justifiable homicides by both police and civilians. These cannot be included because they are self defense. I personally don't include them because of that fact. That leaves us with murder, which is truly violent, but people have been murdering each other for ages before guns were even invented. What's to stop the same from occuring if you were somehow to miraculously stop criminals from getting guns?

Your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is also wrong. There are far more Constitutional scholars who believe it guarantees an individual right than there are those who believe it doesn't. Look for yourself, if you can't find them, you aren't looking hard enough or you're looking in the wrong places.

I'll have to revisit this later. I'm going to do some more research.
 
Hey Rothman, what's up man? Great to see you here.:):)

Why is it that no one mentions "South African-style registration." It involves requiring licenses to be renewed and then making the process extremely expensive and denying applications.
 
The best quote in the chapter is James Brady, Ronald Reagan's Press Secretary.
You may find his quote emotionally moving but it is just 1 man's opinion and factually irrelevant.

I cite Attorney General Homer Cummings several times in my book. He was Franklin Roosvelt's Attorney General and was the architect for the 1934 and 1938 federal gun laws.
Perhaps thats telling in itself. Would you take Alberto Gonzales' opinion as the most relevant on civil rights? There are of course dissenting opinions from the officers of other attorney generals though http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.pdf feels that the 2nd amendment asserts an individual right.

LaPierre states: "We think that it is reasonable to demand that when a lawful gun buyer passes the criminal background check and purchases a firearm, records of the transaction should be destroyed immediately." This is NONSENSE. Why don't we do the same with cars? The reason is that we want to be able to track the car if it is stolen and to be able to link the car to the owner.
I've always viewed titles on expensive property as a way to prove ownership but perhaps more importantly provide a link to the party responsible for the annual taxes on it. We have no taxes due on firearms to worry about. I'm having a hard time seeing what finding the last legal owner of a firearm before it was stolen does though. Finding the last legal buyer doesn't fix a shooting victim.

require gun manufactuers to micro-stamp their guns
Alright lets talk about this one. First you're passing a cost increase on to me. If you're want to save lives at the cost of consumers I'd suggest mandatory breathalyzers in cars. Can you cite any examples of states that have existing ballistic fingerprinting programs that have proven to be worth their cost? How would you suggest microstamping itself is going to work? I could easily alter a gun to not make the mark. I could pick up the brass after shooting. I could pick up brass from the shooting range and leave the numbers of 50 different guns at the scene. I could use a revolver so no brass would be ejected. It seems like its a good wish, but as far as actual practicality goes I don't see how it would work.

It is obvious we have too many guns in our society. Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated."
To me it seems obvious we have too much violent crime but I see no evidence that guns existing cause it. Being knifed or choked or poisoned is no better than being shot. Some who treats victims of gun violence is going to be tempteed to make a very emotional appeal like hers, but it doesn't mean the opinion is justified. I suspect a similar appeal from someone who had their life saved by a gun would have little impact on you.

Although some of them seem mean spirited, I was surprised that several said you would read the book, but not buy it.
I don't condone the mean spirited email, but can you blame people for the passion? If you try to take rights from people, you can probably count on catching some heat for it. If you suggested restrictions on the freedom of speech, press, religion, etc I think you could expect even more passionate responses so in some sense at least they're restrained. If I feel like you're presenting new research or a truly solid report I would even buy the book, I don't want any percentage of my purchase price for more of the same going to gun control groups though.

Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confication. This is ridiculous. Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point?
I certainly cannot in this current day. I do acknowledge that humans have a history of doing terrible things to each other though also. I also find it practically unthinkable that fewer than 70 years ago a major western european country slaughtered 11 million people. I imagine most of those people found it unthinkable in prior years too or they might have been traveling. Gradual attrition is what we're already seeing in some states like CA though.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that licensure would not appease those who wish to ban handguns or modern-looking rifles. How do I know?
It very well might not, but its also a step in their direction. I would like to make progress in the opposite direction like lifting the post 86 machine gun ban not give up more rights and hope that someon won't take the next step.

Overall I'm disappointed that you don't seem to have any interest in the real problems of violent crime, but simply a tool often used in them. Such a huge number of homicides are drug related but guns are the problem?
 
Dr. McDowell, thank you for coming here to THR.

Here is a list of things that could be done to reduce illegal trafficking (each of these points is amplified by Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.)

1. develop a gun tracing database.
2. combine data from different jurisdictions
3. supplement databases with information from police investigations
4. undercover stings of gun dealers
5. increase oversight and inspection of gun deals
7. reduce illegal gun carrying
8. personalize guns
9. encourage use of BATEF's and NIBIM system
10. require gun manufactuers to micro-stamp their guns

How do any of these things reduce illegal trafficking specifically? It seems to me that none of these things, either by themselves or together would do a single thing to control illegal gun activity.

For example, how would increased oversight and inspection of gun deals help, when criminals aren't likely to submit to oversight or inspection? It seems that in this case, the law simply makes it harder for law-abiding citizens to purchase guns legally. Also, you say that we should reduce illegal gun carrying in order to reduce illegal gun trafficking. Hmm. Isn't that like saying that we should drink more milk by drinking more milk? The fact of the matter is that these activities are already illegal, and there are already laws and methods in place to deal with them. Opinions on how well/poorly those laws are enforced today aside, I think that it is just easier to say that virtually none of us here on THR believe, at all, that the problem is guns.

As I see it, the problem is that as a society we have developed a very troubling habit of needing to place blame on something, rather than admit the obvious. Kids are too fat? Blame McDonalds. Grades are too low? Blame the system. Crime rates are high? Blame guns. Why can't we just look at the most obvious answers: Parents need to feed their kids healthy chow, parents and schools need to see if the problem is the system, the teacher or the student rather than cast a net, and we need to look at why the crime was perpetrated in the first place and fix that, not take away the tool used in that crime.
 
I'm Earl McDowell.

Hello Mr. McDowell.

Thank you for your comments. In order for you to understand why I support gun control, please go to iUniverse and write my name. You will be able to read the preface, contents, Chapter 1 and part of Chapter 2 of my book, America's Great Gun Game: Gun Ownership vs. Americans' Safety.

So noted.

Now that you have read about me and my conversion to support both state and federal gun control, let me tell you a bit more about myself. At one time I owned three guns, but I didn't want them in my house as my daughters were growing up.

My dear Mr. McDowell, I grew up with my two siblings in a household with a variety of handguns, shotguns, and rifles. It was part of our childhood.

This is a bit off topic, but I respect your right to remove firearms from your household if that's your chosen life style. But you must also equally respect the rights of others to raise their children with firearms in the household. So long as we have that understanding, there's a starting point for discussion.

In addition, I strongly support hunters as my grandfather, father, and brother were all avid hunters. During my teeage years I enjoyed hunting, but I enjoyed target shooting more than hunting small game and deer. My daughter who is a forensic scientist for the Illinois State police also enjoys target shooting. This has nothing to do with this topic, but when I meet someone the first thing I tell them is that I have run 17 marathons.

Well that's an interesting resume, and we've both gone off topic now, so I think we're even.

Let me tell you a little bit more about my book. In Chapter 2, The Second Amendment and National Rifle Association, I cite two Supreme Court Justices, the former president of ABA, and the former dean of Harvard Law School. All of these constitutional scholars state that there is a need to revisit the Second Amendment and to interpret it for the 21st century. For example, former Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger stated, "The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any type of weapon."

Well, I agree and disagree. I fully agree that Justice Burger's statement about the 2A is accurate. I disagree however that there's any need to revisit the amendment and "reinterpret" it.

By "reinterpret", you essentially mean to completely change the meaning of it do you not? In other words, you want to change the meaning of it such that Burger's statement would be incorrect? Is this correct or am I mistaken?

Mr. McDowell I am not a legal expert, but I am a mathematician. Mathematicians do not flippantly change the meanings of their symbology and notation. We do not decide that "+" now means anything other than addition to use a simple example. It stands to reason to me that clearly we know what the 2A means.

Is it not incredibly dishonest to want to just change the meaning without striking it from the Constitution or amending it through the process outlined in that very document? If we just go willy nilly saying "I want to change what this statement says to suit me without going through the legislative process to change the actual law" we are inviting not only tyranny but a complete collapse of the rule of law.

I very much take issue with the idea that you seem to be implying that someone like a Supreme Court justice should legislate from the bench and so arbitrarily change the meaning of a law. And that's not just because it's that particular law, it's because it completely throws the whole structure of our government out the window.

Mr. McDowell, my suspicion is you are clever enough to deduce that "legislating from the bench" or using some other "workaround" method besides actually changing what the 2A says (namely by passing a new Constitutional amendment) is an easier means by which to pursue your agenda. However I completely object to your implied methods and your assertion that "reinterpreting" laws is how we should run our country. That totally defeats the point of having written rules in the first place.

The best quote in the chapter is James Brady, Ronald Reagan's Press Secretary. He doubted that "...the Founding Fathers imagined a time when over 30,000 people each year are dying from gun violence, when high powered military-style weapons like AK47s with 30-round magazines are available on the streets, when a 14-year-old can take his father's gun and mow down his classsmates, or when parents leave a loaded pistol around and a two year old can easily fire it."

Did the founding fathers ever envision a time when thousands of people have their very identities stolen each year, when could have high power computers just like the military uses which process untold bytes per second with hundreds of megs of RAM, when a 14 year old could use his father's computer to launch devastating viruses, or a 2 year old might happen upon an internet browser directed at some highly inappropriate pornography?

Mr. McDowell, the people who wrote this document had just fought a war they would not have won without the military weapons of their day. They had been in a fight which they had intended to win. Had AK47s been around, the Founding Fathers would have wielded them in battle. In fact, in the main body of the constitution itself, there is a provision for privately owned warships.

The 2A was an afterthought, the logic being that if warships were privately owned, no one would dare try to restrict something as piddly as a mere rifle. It's true they didn't know what the future held, but the actual technology makes no difference. The intent is clear.

Check this out.

http://www.ccrkba.org/pub/rkba/general/FoundersQuotes.htm

There's plenty of historical evidence to back the assertion, they wanted the people of their new country to be armed with effective contemporary weapons.

If we follow your logic, the 1A needs to be "reinterpreted" as well since the Founding Fathers could never have anticipated something like, say, the internet. It's far too powerful for mere peasants like you or I to use, isn't it?

In chapters three through five I discuss gun movements and gun laws since 1922. I cite Attorney General Homer Cummings several times in my book. He was Franklin Roosvelt's Attorney General and was the architect for the 1934 and 1938 federal gun laws. He said: "Show me a man who doesn't want his gun registered, and I will show you a man who shouldn't have a gun."

I am a man who does not want his gun registered. Explain to me why that makes me innately dangerous. I doubt very much you or anyone else can.

Also, if you want to really understand gun laws, go back to the Civil War at least not just the 1920s.

http://www.constitution.org/cmt/cramer/racist_roots.htm

Short version: Gun control is a primitive throwback to a racist society. A progressive government should eliminate it.

I spent hundreds of hours researching and writing this part of the book and have only received positive feedback on it.

Nor do I make my claims flippantly.

The last five chapters focus on guns and women, guns and children, handguns, concealed weapons and what I call 'REALITY TIME."

As I indicated above I carefully read your emails. Although some of them seem mean spirited, I was surprised that several said you would read the book, but not buy it.

I'm in that boat. I'll read all evidence available. I've been reading materials from gun control organizations for years. But why should I give money to something that I know in my mind and heart is wrong, and even evil?

I don't begrudge you for selling your book, but what's important here, the message, or making a profit? There's nothing wrong with making a profit of course.

I could bombard you with links of free reports from a variety of sources which show a much more compelling and accurate assessment of the situation, and they all fall firmly on my side of the fence.

Some seemed open-minded. Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confication. This is ridiculous. Can you imagine the U.S. government coming to your homes and taking your guns at gun point?

Why not? It's already happened in several western countries not entirely unlike our own. I doubt a door to door confiscation would be the immediate course of action naturally, but what happened in England and Australia could easily be recreated here.

Some also questioned the need for licensing of gun owners and registration of firearms,

I do. I resent the state assuming that I'm a criminal and forcing me to prove I'm not. That's guilty until proven innocent.

while other thought I should have used the term "illegal guns."
This was an excellent suggestion.

Why do we need licensing of gun owners and registration of guns?

To prevent bulk sales by "straw buyers." Here is how it works. Typically guns are moved from the legal to the illegal market by criminal entrepreneurs, gun traffickers. But since felons cannot pass the federal background check to purchase guns, traffickers hire people who can pass the background checks to stand in for them to make purchases. Traffickers often accompany their straw buyers into gun shows, point out the guns they wish to purchase, provide cash and watch as the straw buyers make buys. Once the purchase is complete, the trafficker and straw buyer exit the store; the latter receives a service fee and the former takes the handguns to which he cannot be tied, as he was not the legal purchaser. This is how it works folks: The handgun will now be passed from the legal to the illegal market and the trafficker will sell his ill-gotten guns on the street corner to thugs, to drug gang members and on playgrounds to violent teens.

Sir your only real point here is that criminals do not obey laws and find ways around them.

Obviously a national system of licensing gun owners and registration of all guns would help to solve this problem.

If all criminals were to start obeying the laws and not circumventing them, then yes you might have an argument. But you just made the point, beautifully might I add, that criminals work around laws or break them.

To paraphrase a quote here, you can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws. That's insane!

The results would appear to be fewer deaths by firearms.

I demand proof. Reasonable demand is it not?

In addition to preventing bulk sales, states can pass "one gun a month" laws.

But that's so asinine and arbitrary.

First of all what I do with my money is my own business. If I wish to buy four guns at a time, that's my call.

Second your guideline is completely arbitrary. Why one a month? Why not two? Or why not only one every six months?

That whole idea is just ridiculous and baseless in fact. It's also harmful to stores which sell guns, and companies which make guns and that means less jobs for Americans. Why should they suffer for making a legal product?

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to licensing and registration?

1. Dignity. I am not a criminal. I refuse to be treated like one.

2. The only person who should have to do this is a criminal. But a criminal has no reason to license or register his guns.

3. The implementation is unfeasible and ridiculous, and so large it's impossible to process all the data efficiently. Canada is a great example of how such a registry is far too expensive, inefficient, and of no real use to law enforcement. There are as many guns as people in the US according to some sources, do you really think it's practical to do this? Furthermore I refuse to pay for it.

4. Privacy and security. Firearms are valuable. Any sort of registry will inevitably be infiltrated. The last thing I want is for a criminal or just any random government employee to have access to all my personal information plus the information about the valuable guns I own. They could be stolen by corrupt officials, or those same officials could sell my information to the black market, or a criminal might crack the security on the registry on his own.

5. Furthermore, in the event of a worst case scenario, I am potentially at a disadvantage if someone else knows I have firearms. I'd much rather have an ignorant violent attacker than an informed one.

I could go on but that's enough for now.

Here is a list of things that could be done to reduce illegal trafficking (each of these points is amplified by Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.)

1. develop a gun tracing database.
2. combine data from different jurisdictions
3. supplement databases with information from police investigations
4. undercover stings of gun dealers
5. increase oversight and inspection of gun deals
7. reduce illegal gun carrying
8. personalize guns
9. encourage use of BATEF's and NIBIM system
10. require gun manufactuers to micro-stamp their guns

Why would any law-abiding citizen be opposed to these methods?

I'll respond item by item.

1. The implementation of this database would be impossible. What if I go sell my gun? Your tracing ends right there.

2. I want my privacy protected.

3. What does this even mean or refer to?

4. Or here's an idea: just let the vending of guns be legal, and that way we don't have to waste millions of tax dollars on undercover stings.

5. I want my privacy protected. Furthermore it's really none of anyone else's damn business what kind of guns I purchase. Also, this measure is easily defeated by anyone knowledgeable of firearms. Many firearms can be altered to different configurations and even calibers, so your database information would be meaningless.

6. There is no item six.

7. We do that now. There are so many laws about where you can't carry a gun. They're obviously ineffective so why continue this practice?

8. Why should I have to personalize my gun? The whole reason I bought certain guns is for the easily interchangeable parts and accessories. Furthermore what form would this personalization take? I would wager whatever it is, I am clever enough to defeat it if I wanted to.

9. Don't we do that now? Once again why continue?

10. Microstamp what? Furthermore this technology is unproven, proven impossible to implement in cases where it's been proposed (such as in California), and easily defeated by anyone with knowledge of firearms and how they work.

In addition, the NRA constantly states that the judiciary needs to enforce the laws on the books. For example, Wayne Lapierre, executive vice-president of the NRA, has stated before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime that it is reasonable to have mandatory background checks for gun-show weapon sales, that it is reasonabe to prevent all juveniles convicted of felonies from owning guns for life, that it is reasonable to support the federal Gun-Free Zone Act and that it reasonable to expect the full enforcement of Federal firearm laws by the federal government. I don't know anyone who doesn't agree with LaPierre's statement.

Well now you do. I disagree very much with it.

This is the part where gun control supporters disagree with gun rights advocates. LaPierre states: "We think that it is reasonable to demand that when a lawful gun buyer passes the criminal background check and purchases a firearm, records of the transaction should be destroyed immediately." This is NONSENSE. Why don't we do the same with cars? The reason is that we want to be able to track the car if it is stolen and to be able to link the car to the owner.

We probably should do the same with cars. The reason why the records must be destroyed I've actually already detailed, but namely because it's my right to buy what I want and not report it to the government.

Eight-eight percent of women and 73 percent of males agree with me.

I don't care. If 90% of people agree 2+ 2 = 5 it still isn't so.

My last point deals with guns and women and guns and children. The statistics are overwhelming and easily accessible on the internet.

They're also skewed. Many of these reports on "children" include 18-20 year olds for instance.

I cite many statisitics in my book, and I am very careful in drawing conclusions.

I can throw statistics at you too.

It is obvious we have too many guns in our society.

How so? Are there actually so many guns in the streets, people are tripping over them? Are people falling into piles of discarded AK47s and drowning in them like it was quicksand?

It's not the number of guns, it's how often they are misused.

Dr. Catherine Christoffel, a Chicago pediatrician and spokeswomen for the fifty thousand members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told the American Medical Association: "Guns are a virus that must be eradicated."

Never mind the Second Amendment Foundation or the late Jeff Cooper, it's obvious the authority on firearms should be a pediatrician. Or how about an accountant? Why not a patent attorney?

Silliness aside, why turn to anybody besides somebody who actually understands firearms, their use, and the implications thereof? This is like asking a plumber how to bake a cake when there's a baker we could be talking to instead.

She went on: "Get rid cigarettes, get rid of secondhand smoke, and you get rid of lung cancer.

I would say that's wrong. Plenty of people who never smoke, who don't live with other people who smoke, get lung cancer.

It is the same with guns. Get rid of guns, get rid of bullets, and you get rid of deaths."

I promise you good sir if all firearms were to instantly disappear, we would all still die eventually.

She concluded her speech with "A handgun in the home turns so many situations lethal."

Lethal for who? The guy that wants to take your six year old daughter away so he can rape her and then strangle her?

In fact over 750 spouses each year are killed by firearms. As far as I know no one gave their spouse a lethal injection, but a few were poisoned.

No, 750 spouses were killed by murderers, not firearms. Your poison example only proves that killings will happen even if the guns aren't available.

There are over 500 organizations operating to stop gun violence against women and chicdren. Many organizations exist in most states. I am proud to be associated with Citizens for a Safer Minnesota. You can identify organizations in your state by going to the internet and writing the name of your state and "gun violence organizations"

But these groups also want to pass laws I don't agree with and they do not share my passion for freedom and sport. They want to take away something which is my right, which I also happen to enjoy. They're also widely considered to be kooks by many people I respect. Why should I join them?

As I wrote at the beginining, I appreciate your emails. <snip>I have already made enough money to buy a cup of coffee.

Why should I give you, or anyone else, money to do something which is directly harmful to me Mr. McDowell?
 
Dr. McDowell, welcome to THR!

I do appreciate and respect your civil and polite postings.
This reflects well not only for THR, also any Internet Fora exchange of differing viewpoints.

I appreciate members of THR who are being civil and polite as well.

It is said communication is the key to understanding and this thread can serve as another example to those for or against Gun Control and/or Registration, or those Sitting on the Fence not sure how they feel, how to effectively learn about one another and have a civil , polite discussion.

Thanks to everyone being civil and polite.

Dr. McDowell,
Personally I am against any form of gun control, and/or registration.
You and I will have to simply agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

Steve
 
welcome to THR , Dr. McDowell . . . .

I hope you are enjoying the give and take we've all come to expect around here.

If I may make an observation, you seem to have arrived at a conclusion and then set about writing a book to support it. I guess I'm OK with that if we were discussing how to make a really good cup of coffee but the issue you've taken on in your book requires a good deal more objectivity than was evident in your original post.

Suppose you set out to prove the exact opposite of the conclusion you arrived at. What information would you gather? What experts, scholars and learned persons would you quote? What historical precedents would you cite? What poll data would you consider relevant?

The subject you've taken on deserves the very best of rigorous academic research. Factual errors and omissions and logical inconsistencies will simply not suffice in this arena. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and you may editorialize as you see fit but as I heard a stand-up comic say once, "This is a tough room!". :scrutiny:
 
Several mentioned that gun control would lead to confication. This is ridiculous.

Before you call this ridiculous....Can you provide one example, in any place, at any time, where gun registration didn't lead to confiscation?

Recent examples wouldn't include Canada, Australia, or the UK, because they disprove your point.
 
You don't have to go overseas of examples. In California they first required (so called) semi-automatic assault rifles to be registered. Later they banned such firearms, and used the registration rolls to insure that they were either sent out-of-state, or turned into the police. :uhoh:

Right now in Washington, DC a case may be brought before the Supreme Court, because the city first required that handguns be registered and licensed, and then once they were registered refused to issue the necessary license, therefore banning them.

Chicago did much the same.

When a legally owned and registered firearm is banned, it is in effect confiscated - usually with no or little compensation.
 
Michigan -- gun registration in Michigan hasn't led to confiscation there.

That said, it hasn't done anything useful there, except be a first step toward possible gun registration -- if one thinks of that as useful. (I don't.)

I read the first chapter of the book, online, btw. It wasn't very good; I don't think I spotted a new fallacy, although I did see the return of a bunch of old ones. And in terms of there being some new argument that wasn't fallacious, it's not there.

Maybe there's a new fallacy or a new argument in a subsequent chapter, but that's not the way to bet.
 
Dr. McDowell,

The idea that registering firearms , microstamping , weapons bans , and other such solutions is the cure for "gun crimes" is essentially trying to treat the symptoms rather than the cause . Whenever statistics are trotted out to support new gun laws , they are derived from areas that are high in poverty,gangs, and other societal ills that have not been addressed . Perhaps looking at areas and states that don't have the above problems(or much less ) and looking at the gun crime data for the same area , you will find that crimes involving firearms are minimal .

My state is a good example of there being no need for registration, microstamping, bans, etc . We have the highest gun ownership per capita , except for possibly Alaska . We have approximately 50000 concealed permit holders . We have the bare minimum of gun laws . We can , and do , own full auto rifles ,suppressors, and "assault" weapons . The population is 1.3 million people . With all that , we had only 19 murders/ neg manslaughter . Only 7 of those involved firearms .

The reason why a state with such lax gun laws has such a low murder rate from fire arms? Perhaps it's the fact we don't have "gangs" . We are not the richest state , but are not a poverty state either . We don't have drug cartels to deal with. And the possibility that an intended victim is armed , either at home or on the street , is a great deterrent to a criminal .

We also have a low firearms accident rate . Perhaps because hunter safety is taught so widely (includes fire arms safety) . Courses are sponsored by school districts, sports clubs, civic groups and others . Educating about , rather than creating fear of fire arms, has produced generations of safe , law abiding gun owners here.

If you really wanted to research and find out the best course to prevent gun violence/crime , why would you not look at maine to see why , having so many fire arms , does not have the same problems that others with less do? All of the proposals you have made do nothing in crime prevention , but rather , punishes the law abiding for acts done by those that would disregard the law in the first place.

At least , within my state , they were smart enough to know that there would be people out there that would try to "re-interpret " our state constitution , so they made our right to keep and bear arms a simple straight forward statement.

Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.
 
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