Ammunition

[army_husbandky]

OK...............I know this has been brought up a lot in many threads in many shapes and sizes, but this is in regards to hand loaded ammunition for self-defense carrybanghead. I read through some of the posts that were here on THR, and looked up some of the cases that were involved, and I don't see where the use of reloaded ammunition was the case in question, but it was the overall situation of the case that brought to attention the fact that reloaded ammunition was used (if what I typed just made any sense).

I am weighing the facts, trying to break through the myths, but in the end, I am still trying to decide if I should carry reloaded or factory loaded ammunition for self defensive purposes.

I have a load now, with my Taurus PT-145 Mill Pro that gives me 1/4 inch groups at 25 yards, 3.25" barrel, pretty good group according to most, but with loaded self defense ammo, the best I was able to get was 1 1/2" groups, I have had failures with factory ammo, but have never had a failure with my reloaded ammunition.

But on the other hand, I can see where a prosecutor would probably try to make me out to be some evil monster who sat at his home and tried to put together this ammunition so that I could go out looking for Johnny Badguy just to shoot a couple of holes in him (I got names for a lot of stuff, Johnny Badguy, or here in Iraq, Bob the friendly terrorist, you'll see stuff like this sometimes), when all I was trying to do was fine tune this ammunition to be more accurate and reliable to defend not only myself, but maybe also my family if that time comes.

My dad (who will remain nameless) has sat down and talked with me about this and says that using reloaded ammunition is just fine, and he has been a police officer for the last almost 40 years, he carries reloaded ammunition in his duty gun. Still goes in the firearm, still goes bang, bullet flies out the end of the barrel, does the same thing as that factory ammo does.

I have a few ammunition choices selected to test when I get home. All are 230 gr, Remington Ultimate Home Defense Ammunition, Remington Golden Saber Ammunition, Speer Gold Dot Ammunition Short Barrel, and Winchester Supreme Elite Ammunition. Has anyone used any of these rounds? What do you think of them?

I will continue to look into the pros and cons of carrying reloaded ammunition for self defense as compared to using ammunition that from the factory. Any input on this subject to help enlighten me would be of great help.

Thank You THR.

 

[christcorp]

Personally, at the most, I shoot about 1 box of defensive ammo per year, per gun. The rest of the time, it's plinking ammo. So I don't see the need to reload defense ammo. I have a box of hydra-shoks for my 357 magnum; golden sabers for my 45acp; critical defense for my 9mm and 380, and hornady xtp for my makarov. Those are my only self defense weapons, and the average cost per box of ammo is about $18. I can easily pay $18 for a gun once a year. And to be honest, I could probably have that box of defense ammo last for a number of years. I just like to shoot it about once a year just to remember how it shoots. But in the "real" world, in a self defense situation, you're going to be within 25-30 feet. (7-10 yards). At that distance, accuracy isn't that much different shooting different ammo. And as for kick and recoil, you'll NEVER NOTICE it in real life. Your heart will be racing, breathing erratic, brain all over the place. When/if you have to pull the trigger, you'll never even notice any difference in recoil.

Anyway, I just don't see the need for reloading defense ammo. And therefor, why even worry about all the other possible issues that go along with reloading defensive ammo. But there are definitely some people that believe that because they are only reloading 20-50 rounds compared to millions of rounds like Remington, Winchester, and Federal, that their quality is Better than the professionals. I personally trust the quality of remington, federal, winchester, etc... And the cost is insignificant. However, there are also some that believe that you're suppose to be practicing with what you plan on carrying and shooting. I know some people that actually shoot their hollow point gold dot ammo all the time. No fmj or anything else. Yes, they reload, but it's still more expensive that buying or reloading fmj. I think there's no logic to the "Practice with what you plan on shooting" mentality. Not at within 20 feet of the bad guy. But, to each their own.,

 

[Kleanbore]

I have a load now, with my Taurus PT-145 Mill Pro that gives me 1/4 inch groups at 25 yards, 3.25" barrel, pretty good group according to most, but with loaded self defense ammo, the best I was able to get was 1 1/2" groups

If you are hunting field mice with a pistol at 75 feet, that would make a difference.

Seriously, however, christcorp nailed it: for self defense you will be shooting very rapidly and repeatedly at a moving target that is effectively about the size of a paper plate ("center mass"), at a distance at which the target would pose an imminent danger to you when you have no other alternative. Think 5 to 30 feet, and probably on the short side of that. By the way, you should probably be trying to move also. Group size isn't going to matter.

But on the other hand, I can see where a prosecutor would probably try to make me out to be some evil monster who sat at his home and tried to put together this ammunition so that I could go out looking for Johnny Badguy just to shoot a couple of holes in him...

Perhaps, depending upon what you are trying to load and why, in a situation in which justifiability is not reasonably clear, that could tip the scales, but frankly, I think that is a very minor concern. That's a lay opinion. Do not rely on it.

One thing that is a lot less subjective is this: should you happen to get into a situation involving a shooting at short range, where evidence and testimony supporting your claim are lacking or where the evidence and testimony are contradictory, and should forensic trace evidence regarding the characteristics or the lack of gun shot residue on the person you shot become pivotal to sustaining your claim of justifiability, you would be a lot better off had you used factory ammunition. That's because of issues pertaining to the admissibility of forensic trace evidence in court.

My dad (who will remain nameless) has sat down and talked with me about this and says that using reloaded ammunition is just fine, and he has been a police officer for the last almost 40 years, he carries reloaded ammunition in his duty gun.

Hmmm.... That's interesting. Most departments of any size specify a standard load or a list of permissible loads from which officers may choose.

As an educated guess, I would offer that that probably has to do partly with issues of liability (the state, county, or municipality must indemnify its officers, and that is not an inexpensive undertaking); partly with evidentiary considerations (these projectiles were evidently fired by officers, these by subject A, and these by a person unknown); and partly with providing the municipality, etc. with assurance that the ammunition used is effective and does not over penetrate.

Police officers do not fire their weapons in the line of duty very often at all, but when they do, things usually become very serious for them until thorough investigations have been completed, and it will be essential that the evidence shows that they followed approved procedure in every respect.

 

[jem375]

How are they going to know if it is hand loaded or not if you don't tell them?

 

[mljdeckard]

The crime lab can take one look at the brass and know if it was reloaded, not tricky.

Honestly, I'm less interested in the opinion of a veteran cop than I am in the opinion of a current prosecutor.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I'm with post #2. I don't shoot much defensive ammo. I handload plinking ammo a lot for the .40, but when it's on the nightstand, it's full of Remington Golden Sabers. It's the only gun I have now besides shotguns that I have factory ammo for.

 

[jmortimer]

This has been beat to death. There has never ever been a case where the shooting was justified and the reloaded ammunition sent someone "up the river." If it is a good shoot then end of story as long as ammunition was legal. I also agree that carry the best - Bufflo Bore in my opinion - and practice with cheaper ammunition. I try to reload as close the the ammunition I buy - but I would have no problem using reloaded ammunition. The main case relied on by Ayoob was an alleged suicide/murder. Simple - Good shoot - no problem.

 

[Kleanbore]

This has been beat to death.

Yep, and there are always some who do not appear to have understood the issues.

If it is a good shoot then end of story as long as ammunition was legal.

Exactly right--as long it is agreed (or adjudged) that it was a good shoot. The ammunition used will not make a lawful act unlawful.

However, a defense of justification requires the shooter to present supporting evidence, and if the testimony and other evidence are not sufficiently clear and in favor of the shooter, the prosecution will (1) try to challenge and discredit the shooter's evidence and (2) present contradictory evidence of its own.

The applicability of gunshot residue evidence is covered in the leading forensic investigation textbooks; you can get one for about $100. The rules on the admissibility of scientific forensic trace evidence are also rather clear though complex; you can take courses in the subject. I took one some years ago.

Issues regarding mens rea are a lot more subjective.

The way charging decisions, prosecutions, and jury deliberations work in an affirmative defense, the outcome will probably (though not necessarily) be determined by a number of factors and not on any single one, and short of interviewing all of the jurors after every trial, one will never know what led to the final decisions.

The main case relied on by Ayoob was an alleged suicide/murder.

The case revolved around the admissibility of evidence; what the charges were is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[GLOOB]

1/4" groups at 25 yards. Was that a typo? So your pistol is more accurate than most hunting rifles?

That wouldn't even be one ragged hole. It would be 1 pretty clean hole - a deviation of a quarter of the diameter of the bullet in any given direction.

 

[army_husbandky]

GLOOB,

No typos, 1/4" at 25 yards, slow fire, no bench rest. I had a 1LT from my unit that wanted to shoot against me, lost, now I can't get another military officer to shoot pistol against me (not meaning to brag (also got a load for my steyr M40, almost covered the group with a nickel from my pocket), but accuracy is only one thing that would make me wanna carry ammunition that I reload, there is also reliability, I have not had one of my rounds ever fail me, I check, double check, and check one more time for good measure just to make sure that my rounds are exactly as they should be, I have had factory ammo fail me, wasn't the premium stuff, but it wasn't dirt cheap either, I wanna say that it was remington, but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, from being in the military, I have had lots of training in firing while on the move, I have had this training with a rifle (M16A2, not the M4), and shoot more accuratly then most others in my unit. I know a pistol is different from a rifle, but the fundimentals are still the same, so I am pretty sure that if I get enough practice with my pistol on moving targets, and while I'm on the move, then I am confident that my loads accuracy will also help and will also make for a better SD round.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

that's impressive. great shooting.
if I was haraunged for shooting handloaded ammo I'd tell the cops I bought them at the gun show because they were cheap. lie like hell they will.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I don't reload for power or destructive force: I reload for accuracy, to the point of that some of my reloads with jacketed hollow point bullets don't expand in test media. I doubt if a zealous prosecutor could use my handloaded ammo against me if I ever defended myself.

Even so, my bedside table gun is loaded with standard factory ammunition. Remington +P 158gr jacketed hollowpoint.

 

[army_husbandky]

Marlin 45 carbine,

can't lie man. that is something else that the military has drove into my head, integrity, integrity, integrity. if a police officer was to ask me if the ammunition was factory or reloaded, I'd tell them the truth every time, it's just in me. I wouldn't want a soldier to lie to me, and I would not lie to another soldier.

 

[Kleanbore]

if I was haraunged for shooting handloaded ammo I'd tell the cops I bought them at the gun show because they were cheap. lie like hell they will.

I cannot imagine any reason at all for law enforcement officers to "harangue" you for shooting handloaded ammo.

However, should you encounter an issue with the admissibility of evidence, that fact that the loads were assembled by another handloader wouldn't help you at all, unless I am missing something.

Should you lie, that fact may be introduced as evidence to impugn you credibility. That could be very damaging to you indeed. Matter of fact, your post here could be used against you.

 

[buck460XVR]

This has been beat to death.

yep....sure has, but this topic always brings up some interesting views.


The one about lyin' to the cops about where you got your ammo is a new one tho.



BTW....the only ammo I own, I rolled myself.