AMT Hardballer Hollow Point Problems

[MShanahan15]

I know, I know. The name says it all; why would I be trying to feed a weapon with the word "hardball" in the name, anything but the 230 grain, round-nosed, ball-jacketed ammunition for which it was designed? The answer is one that requires a bit of backstory, or so I believe.

First of all, my grandfather, the man who introduced me to the wonderful world of shooting, recently passed away, and amongst other things, he left me his AMT brand Hardballer automatic. It has been nothing but trouble for me, since I went to pick it up. It's been in and out of three different gunsmithing shops, across two states, and still, up until recently, failed to function, even with hardball, encountering a 3-point jam at least once per magazine (factory mag, and CMC shooting star mags). I finally decided that I wasn't going to spend any more money with gunsmiths, and that I'd try to fix the weapon myself. Since having made that decision, I've finger-polished the frame ramp and barrel ramp, lengthened/oblonged the hole in the barrel link, towards the barrel, until the slide stop pin was able to ride the lug, as it was apparently intended to do, in order to retard the barrel's upward camming action, added extractor tension, until it felt exactly as tight as a properly adjusted one that I had felt the day before, when a gunsmith I had talked to was telling me how to adjust the extractor, showed me one he had just finished with (when I got the gun, a cartridge would freely drop straight through the extractor, without being gripped AT all) and installed an 18# progressive recoil spring from Sprinco (I had GREAT luck with their extractor/buffer spring combo for my LR-308 and had read that a heavier recoil spring could "mask inherent desgn problems", so I though hey, that's all I need, right?).

I took it out to the range with hardball ammo, after having done all of this, and it actually jammed even MORE frequently than before, BUT, when put the stock recoil spring back in, I proceeded to have the most reliable shooting session with the gun since I inherited it (only 1 3-point-jam for 100 rounds of PMC Bronze 230 gr FMJ RN). I was pretty damn satisfied with this and decided I'd try to load up some hollow points for it when I got home. After all, it has a factory throated barrel, and brand new a mirror finish on the feed ramp (which I am now aware may have been a blunder on my part, and something that hurt, not helped, but which I then thought was a plus).

I got on my press and threw together some dummy rounds for feeding, according to Bill Wilson's combat 1911 recipe of a 230 Gr. Hornady XTP, seated to have a COAL of 1.23". I loaded them in a magazine, dropped the slide and CLUNK, the slide's momentum was cut off just as soon as it had started, with the nose of the first round jammed between the breechface, and the feed ramp, stubbornly refusing to deflect off of the feed ramp like hardball round.

At this point, I obviously want to make that 1 in 100 3-point-jam with hardball even less likely than it is, and furthermore, facilitate the reliable feeding of hollow point rounds, starting with getting them to actually move up the feed ramp. I'll upload some pictures later tonight to help everyone understand what I am dealing with, but my only additional note is as follows: PLEASE be kind and understanding, within reason (I am aware I may need to be admonished for what I have done to my 1911 so far), as I am brand new to this forum, and the 1911 platform, and mean only to humbly ask for advice.

Thank you so much for your time,

-Shanahan

 

[BBBBill]

Be prepared to get frustrated and pull out some hair as you work through this. The AMT is not highly regarded (for good reason), but it can usually be made to work with a lot, repeat, a lot of effort.
Pics. Lots of detailed close up pics. Be prepared to take more and post as requested. Starting with the slide off and the barrel laying in the barrel bed, show the barrel/frame feed ramp relationship. Be prepared to take measurements as needed. Got a decent dial caliper and micrometer?

 

[MShanahan15]

EDIT: I have no idea how to delete a post, but this was my original attempt at uploading the pictures. I tried using dropbox links and they didn't work, so I made an IMGUR account and then made a new post below using those links. It worked fine other than the pictures ending up HUGE (Sorry about that, I have no idea how to fix it, but there they are).

 

[MShanahan15]

Pictures:

^The Gun

^3-Point Jam I've been experiencing w/ FMJ RN, reproduced w/ A-Zoom snap cap; used to happen 2-3 times per magazine of FMJ, now only once per 100 rounds

^Same 3-point jam, different camera angle

^XTP dummy round hung up on feed ramp

^IF, miraculously, an XTP would get past the feed ramp, I got another of the all-too familiar 3-point jams

^Another picture of the same 3-point jam induced by the rare XTP that managed to make it that far in the feed cycle

^Barrel/frame fit w/ slide stop out and barrel held as far back is it goes

^Another angle of barrel/frame fit

^Barrel/frame fit w/ flashlight in magwell for better lighting (maybe)

^Feed ramp which I hand polished... fingers crossed that I didn't ruin it forever

 

[rcmodel]

I see no major problems with the frame & barrel feed ramps.

1. Replace the recoil & main springs with standard weight 1911 springs.

16# Recoil spring.
23# hammer spring.

2. Then check the bottom edge of the extractor hook for a sharp edge cutting into the case rims as they rotate up out of the magazine.
If there is a sharp edge, polish it off with a needle file or stone.

3. Then, lose the steel case Russian ammo shown hanging up in the first photo's.

rc

 

[MShanahan15]

rcmodel, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my post. First of all, I have a standard weight mainspring and recoil spring. I apologize for not being clear enough about this in the original post, but while I did purchase and try an 18# recoil spring, the gun functioned even worse than before, with that installed, so I switched back to the stock 16#, but still am encountering all of the above issues. Also, I don't have any Russian or steel-cased ammo that I run through that gun; the "ammo" you are referencing is actually an A-Zoom snap cap, something which I did point out in text below the picture, but, given the inordinate size of the pictures, these captions were probably impossible to read when zoomed out far enough on the page to see the photos in their entirety, so the fact that you didn't see that was more or less my fault, as well... sorry.

 

[rcmodel]

Mmmmmm.
A-Zooms!
I see now!

Yes, the huge size of the pictures blew my iPad screen clear out of the water as far as reading the text.

Sorry.
Never mind.

rc

 

[MShanahan15]

Haha, sorry about making it so inconvenient to read on your iPad, I have absolutely no idea how or why the pictures ended up so large, but I am very grateful to you and anyone else who decides to respond, for bearing with me, and looking at the pictures and trying to help anyways, instead of turning away as soon as you see that I clearly missed a day in "Uploading Pictures 101".

 

[Elkins45]

Yeah, those pictures are HUGE.

The Hardballer--the most ironically named handgun ever. Mine wouldn't even feed hardball reliably. The fix I applied was to trade it for something else.

 

[BBBBill]

Someone here should be able to walk you through resizing your pics to a more useable size.
The frame feed ramp appears to be shallow and the top edge is rolled toward the barrel. I've seen far worse, but it ain't right. It should be sharply defined. The feed ramp depth should be a minimum of .360", preferably .420". You can't get that on some frames due to mis-located features. There is a correct angle for that ramp as well (30-1/2 degrees), but it will work within a small range of variation. Gap from the barrel to the top edge of the frame is generally quoted as .030-.033". All pro smiths work toward that. Fred Kart, who makes outstanding barrels, says from nothing to something as long as it works. Before any work is done on this part you need to know more about the rest of the gun. The VIS (vertical impact surface) is the wall in the frame that the back side of the lower barrel lug bumps into when the barrel is down against the frame as in your last few pictures. AMTs are notorious for having an awfully machined VIS. That can and often does result in barrel failure from putting the impact to far down on the lugs.
Before going any further, I recommend that you get Kuhnhausen's book - The Colt 45 Automatic: A Shop Manual - Volume 1 http://www.gunbooks.com/colt45.html Available direct from the publisher, Brownells, Amazon, Midway, etc. Everything works together as a system and there are so many things that need attention on the AMT that you need a well rounded thorough understanding of the whole system.
And AMTs are usually harder than woodpecker lips. Get ready to dull some cutting tools.

 

[Jim Watson]

As BBBBill says, you have rolled the top edge of the frame ramp. It may or may not be salvageable.

I had two friends who bought new Hardballers. One was a determined tinkerer and handtool gunsmith. He eventually got his to work but it had a lot of Colt parts in it by the time he was done, I think including the barrel. He shot it with what would now be .45 +P and was pleased with the strength of the 17-4 PH stainless.
The other guy was a pro machinist. He took the analytical approach and attacked it with welder and mill. He ended up with the oddest looking feed ramp I ever saw, but it worked.

 

[MShanahan15]

BBBBill, thank you for giving me the proper measurements for those features, I'll go break out the micrometer and get back to you all with what everything measures, if I can figure out how to measure it anyways, and maybe a few more pictures, to which I will just post links, I don't want to cause any more trouble trying to embed them. Also, I'm not going to go any further right now, but what would be the correct way to fix the rolling that I created atop the ramp? Just to sand away at ramp with a dowel or something that will maintain a constant angle, to deepen the ramp within spec, until there is a sharp ridge again?

PS: The book is on its way to me as we speak, thank you for the recommendation.

 

[MShanahan15]

I am terribly ashamed to be admitting this, but after posting on my lunch break about getting right home after work and taking the measurements that you prescribed, I must come clean that I have wasted the last couple of hours scratching my head and trying several different methods to measure the feed ramp depth and angle. Unfortunately I have yet to come up with a single accurate or repeatable way to obtain either of these measurements and must humbly ask exactly how one goes about measuring those two things. Thanks again,
-Shanahan

 

[MCgunner]

I had one. It was very OAL dependent, didn't like short loads. I had to load a cast Lee 200 grain SWC out to almost where it wouldn't headspace on the rim because the bullet was that far out of the rim before it would feed, but I got it to feed, finally. I just shot that load in it and didn't worry about hollow points. I couldn't carry back then, anyway, was pre-ccw laws in Texas.

The gun got stolen, I replaced it with a Ruger KP90DC and never looked back. No more 1911s to this day. I actually carry that Ruger and it feeds the flying ashtray Speer 200 grain JHPs which I still have a little stash of, think they're out of production. Hell, that gun is more accurate and will even feed an empty case, did it just to see.

Anyway, I replaced it, is how I fixed it. Probably not an option for you since it's a keep sake. I'd had it worked over by a good gunsmith, feed ramp mirror smooth, too. Good luck!

 

[BBBBill]

Here's a drawing focused on the area of interest - http://forums.1911forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26755&d=1142688436
Note that the slide stop pin hole is the reference point for every other critical surface on the frame. That drawing was one post in this thread - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121954&highlight=feed+ramp
Read the whole thing.

 

[MShanahan15]

Again, those measurements, as well as the others previously posted are fantastic pieces of information, which I am sure could be of great use to me, IF I were competent/knowledgeable enough to actually obtain the current measures of those features on my weapon, alas, I am going to need a little bit of help with that... especially the feed ramp depth and angle. How do you guys measure those when you work on your weapons? Also, as bill and rc both mentioned, I have apparently rolled the top of the feed ramp, where there should be a sharp edge, and I was wondering what I should/can do to get that edge back?

 

[BBBBill]

I will try to find some posts with photos demonstrating the proper method. Give me a day or so to look for them.

 

[osprey176]

I had a Hardballer years ago that with a bit of work would feed anything I fed it. Flying ashtrays,Hornady JHPs ,Sierra JHPs,pretty much anything. I shot informal bowling pin matches with it and suprised myself often. I had a very close friend who was a self taught gunsmith,very good with 1911s and S&W revolvers. He worked it over,polishing the feed ramp and deburring the internals.We also replaced the original hammer with a Commander version,curing the tendency to bite the web of my oversize hands. You might want to consider this after seeing your hand in your pics. We also installed Hogue grips,a mag well flare kit,painted the sights bright since no one made replacements,and added a bushing compensator. It really shot great.Unfortunately, I got home late one night and forgot to bring it inside with me,and got my truck broken into and the AMT stolen.I got it back a couple years later,and didn't recognize it. The gun came back to me as a Longslide,with every thing we put on it gone except the hammer. It only feeds hardball ammo now. My gunsmith friend passed away before it was returned to me,and I wouldn't to be able to duplicate the work we did without spending more than the gun is worth.So now I am in the market for a Commander, most likely a Ruger.

 

[amflyer]

With 1911's, the first step should always be to try different magazine. You look to be shooting a wadcutter lipped mag of extended capacity. I would order a Checkmate industry 7-round Hybrid lipped mag. It will cost around 25 bucks shipped or less. That may fix your problem in its entirety.

Regarding the frame ramp and the barrel ramp: The frame ramp is pretty accurate in name. It's made to give the front of the round the proper handling to get it headed into the barrel. The "barrel ramp" is actually more of a clearance cut. If the frame ramp doesn't have the right specs and the bullet nose crashes into the lower part of the barrel, or with incorrect angle on the top of the barrel hood, you get forward motion of the barrel, locking the action. The latter is also known as excessive stem bind.

You may be in trouble with the rounded edge of the frame ramp, or you may not. Try the new magazine first. The fix to redo the frame ramp is usually an insert or reweld and machining job. But before you despair, try the magazine. I don't think it's much of a exaggeration to say that probably 75% of feeding issues with 1911 are magazine related.

 

[herrwalther]

My AMT backup was notoriously picky with hollow point loads. Parts are hard to come by for AMT and I tried some amateur gun smithing of my own to smooth out the action. I ended up just being conscious about ammo selection. Any tipped hollow point solved feeding issues right away.