An example of the use of force issues that are brought up in civil actions

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Jeff White

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The thread on the inapplicability of a specific force continuum to a civilian defensive act got me researching some police training sites and journals.

I found this case which I think almost anyone would agree was a good shoot. However the estate of the EDP didn't think so and raised all kinds of issues at trial.
http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/21foot_rule.shtml
Use of Deadly Force: Pre-Shooting Conduct and the 21 Foot Rule
By Jack Ryan


A circumstance that officers often face is the suicidal individual who, in essence, holds him or herself hostage. These are difficult cases. While such cases require a police response, officers sometimes are caught between a rock and hard place. Much has been written about the concept of “suicide by cop” but the fact remains that officers are often called to deal with these situations and are expected to prevent the suicide without causing injury or death. At times this is an impossible task. A common denominator that runs through this type of case is an attack on the officer’s tactics in approaching the individual. While at the moment the officer shot, he or she was in danger, the theory is that the officer did something that was tactically incorrect in the approach that contributed to the need to use deadly force.

Estate of Larsen v. Denver, serves as an example. On April 15, 2003, Lyle Larsen called 911 and reported that he was going to kill himself or someone else. Officers responded to the scene and found Mr. Larsen holding a knife that was more than a foot long. Mr. Larsen was standing on the high side of a front yard which was above the sidewalk. Officer Murr and Brase both ordered Larsen to drop the knife. It initially appeared that Larsen was about to comply, but then he suddenly raised the knife over his head. The officers reported that his eyes got “as big as the size of quarters” and Larsen turned toward Officer Murr and pointed the knife at him. The officers continued ordering Larsen to drop the knife. As he stepped toward Officer Murr, Murr used deadly force, shooting and killing Larsen. At the time of the shooting Murr and Larsen were separated by anywhere from 7-20 feet.

While there was no question that Officer Murr’s use of deadly force was necessary at the time he fired, the issue raised by the plaintiffs’ was whether Officer Murr’s actions leading up to the need to use deadly force had, in some way, created the need to use deadly force.

The Estate contended “that Officer Murr contributed to the deadly confrontation because he did not wait for and failed to request backup assistance, failed to retreat or take a defensive position behind a truck or light pole, failed to ‘talk Mr. Larsen down,’ placed himself too close to Mr. Larsen, failed to use other means to disarm Mr. Larsen (i.e., with his baton), failed to request for a member of the SWAT team to use less-lethal weaponry, failed to request other assistance from officers trained in crisis techniques, and failed to call for a less lethal weapon to be provided for his own use. In support of such contention, the Estate proffers the opinion of its expert, H. Ellis Armistead, that Officer Murr had other options available other than use of deadly force. ”

The court utilized the three part Graham test in order to analyze Officer Murr’s actions. The court added a fourth prong utilized by some courts. “In this analysis, several non-exclusive factors are considered -- the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect posed an immediate risk of harm to an officer or another person, whether the suspect was evading arrest, and whether the officer's own conduct created the need to use any force. ”

In response to the plaintiff’s allegations that Officer Murr actions before the shooting contributed for deadly force, the court responded: “This may be true, but for purposes of this analysis, the Court does not determine whether Officer Murr's response was the best or most desirable response under the circumstances, only whether Officer Murr's belief and response was a reasonable one. Thus, the question is not whether Officer Murr could have used less- lethal alternatives, but whether it was reasonable for him to use lethal force under these circumstances.” Thus, while the court considered Officer Murr’s pre- shooting conduct, the court judged this conduct against the objective reasonableness standard and reiterated the position taken by all federal courts which indicates that officers are not required to use the “least” amount of force necessary or the “best” alternative, they are required to do that which is objectively reasonable.

After reviewing Officer Murr’s conduct, the court concluded that his actions were reasonable. While there was no need for the court to go any further in its opinion, the court made several instructive comments on other issues raised by the lawsuit. The plaintiff’s alleged that the city’s failure to enforce the “21 foot rule” policy led to Mr. Larsen’s death. The court concluded that the 21 foot rule is a “formula used to aid an officer in an assessment of risk” and is not a policy. The plaintiff also contended that the agency failed to provide patrol officers with less-lethal options at the time of this death, specifically taser, bean bag and pepper-ball. While some other courts have indicated that it is beyond the federal courts jurisdiction to give law enforcement agencies a laundry list of weapons that must be provided to officers, the court here did not take that approach. Instead, the court rejected this claim asserting that there was no evidence in the case to suggest that Officer Murr’s response to Mr. Larsen would have been different if he had these options available.



i Larsen v. Denver, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8316 (Dist. Of Colorado 2006)

Jack Ryan

As you can see, the plaintiffs wanted the officer held responsible for every level of force he didn't use in resolving the situation. They even tried to say the officer was liable because he let the EDP get within 21 feet of him. While the court ruled for the officer, it's a good illustration of what kinds of issues are brought up.

Now imagine that you've been involved in a similar situation and you proudly tell everyone that your use of force was proper because it followed a set force continuum. Do you think a plaintiffs attorney might bring up some similar issues? How about: "Mr THR Member, you state that on the night in question you were armed with Fox Labs OC spray and a 24" Asp baton. You obviously had other means then lethal force available to you. Why didn't you keep the decent at bay with those weapons while you awaited the arrival of the police?"

While such an attempt might not be successful, it could cost you your life savings to litigate it. As my friend El Tejon says, prepare to fight problem 2.

Jeff
 
Jeff: I think this illustrates the correctness of your advice on the gun waving dumpster guy. Keep your ccl chilled, WALK AWAY and call professionals.
 
One other thing, we (LEO) are tasked with the duty to apprehend folks such as the EDP mentioned in this case and to do it within our ability which includes officer safety. The UOFC was modeled to give us a factor vs factor template to use when justifying our actions and very few if any states require or even teach preclusion for its officers. This whole argument does not apply to anyone lawfully carrying for personal protection. The state where you reside has established law which gives you the foundation to defend yourself and those around you. The UOFC has no place in CCW just as Jeff has pointed out it is strictly a LE model and to go into court spouting anything to do with it or to state such to a cop either verbally or in a written statement after a self defense shooting is only asking to have an attorney head down that slippery slope after you open the door for him.
 
This makes me question if I ever watch a license to carry a concealed weapon. I'll probably end up in jail for not being nice and letting the other guy stab me to death.
 
While such an attempt might not be successful, it could cost you your life savings to litigate it. As my friend El Tejon says, prepare to fight problem 2.

Sure, prepare to fight problem 2, but not at the expense of not being able to properly handle problem 1.

Yes, lawyers can and may try to bring up every potential facet. That is their job.

This makes me question if I ever watch a license to carry a concealed weapon. I'll probably end up in jail for not being nice and letting the other guy stab me to death.

There are inherent risks surrounding lethal force events, no doubt, but you make a good point. You must be alive to go to jail.
 
it sounds a lot like at least this court got it right.

with so many blood sucking leeches out there (aka - plaintiff's lawyers) it is not surprising that they would attempt to bring anything into the mix in a case. it is after all, all about money in court. nothing else matters.

there was a case recently in Rockford where cops shot and killed guy. the dead guy's wife was making noises about getting a lawyer. the police chief's arrogant comments to the media did not help any, even though the circumstances of the shooting made it appear about as legit as such things can get.
 
...Officer Murr and Brase both ordered Larsen to drop the knife. It initially appeared that Larsen was about to comply, but then he suddenly raised the knife over his head. The officers reported that his eyes got “as big as the size of quarters” and Larsen turned toward Officer Murr and pointed the knife at him. The officers continued ordering Larsen to drop the knife. As he stepped toward Officer Murr, Murr used deadly force, shooting and killing Larsen. At the time of the shooting Murr and Larsen were separated by anywhere from 7-20 feet...
My opinion:
SPECIAL AWARD
This Special Award is hereby issued to Officer Murr for his bravery, fast response, and accurate marksmanship
Officer Murr, by his actions , did hereby protect his own life, and that of his fellow officer Brase.
In so doing, Officer Murr has helped to keep the streets of our city safe.

This award is hereby presented by the City Council of Denver
I think many police should get something like this rather than a lawsuit. Probably won't see too many of these however.

Before the enthusiastic flaming begins, YES, I am aware that police sometimes make mistakes and/or act too quickly. And YES there should be some sort of review board set up to look at the facts.
 
Hmmm, two cops, guy with knife 20' away. Might he still be alive if one cop had a Taser?

Something for all the Taser-bashers to think on.
 
carpettbaggerr said:
Hmmm, two cops, guy with knife 20' away. Might he still be alive if one cop had a Taser?

Something for all the Taser-bashers to think on.

Likely not. Guy had a knife which is a deadly weapon, by raising it and stepping forward was closing distance. I and many other LEO will not handicap myself with a less lethal weapon in lethal weapon fight.

I love the taser to death. Awesome tool, most effective intermediate weapon, but it's not the end all, be all.
 
carpettbaggerr said: Hmmm, two cops, guy with knife 20' away.
Meet lethal force with lethal force.

Tasers and chemical sprays are useful for bringing a resisting and uncompliant suspect into custody without permanently harming them in the process. They are not the options we ought to expect a Peace Officer to use when confronted by an armed person.
 
OTOH, we only have one side of the story. If it is mostly true, it seems like there was little in the way of safe options for the cops to choose. But you never know what the real facts are when only one side is available to tell their tale.
 
ilbob - This is the Strategies and Tactics subforum. Contributors have very little latitude for political or other off topic commentary here.


If you desire to make some statement about a police shooting along the lines of your last one, it belongs someplace else.
 
The use of lethal force in a situation where officers are attempting to disarm a knife wielding person makes for a tough choice. You are confronted with a person holding a lethal weapon. Knives have been offing humans for millenia and are never to be taken lightly. What the proper response is or should have been is easy to talk about after the fact. Making the right choice before hand is tougher.

The link below shows a similar incident that ended with gunfire involving a person with a knife.

http://www.nearlygood.com/video/droptheknife.html

Was the officer who fired justified in doing so? Absolutely, when he fired he was within a few feet of a man who lunged at him with a knife. The issue in this case was should the officers have approached and closed the distance, should the car have been used to try and block the mans movement? Or
should the officers have held back and tried to use a less lethal tool like a taser or bean bag. Were these tools even available in this instance. These are issues for training and department policy. While an officer facing a knife wielding person has justification to fear for his life and use deadly force it would be nice to see alternative means being employed more often in an attempt to forestall the need for gunshots.

I am reminded of the incident in Seattle where the police had a sword wielding man on the streets. They had Fire use a hose on him to knock him down and a ladder to pin him in place so they could disarm him without shooting him. While the police have a duty to take someone into custody who is waving a knife in the air and making threats they do not have an imperative to do so in an immediate fashion. Waiting for assistance and alternative means of force should always be considered an option if the subject in question is not physically close enough to others to pose an immediate threat rather than a potential threat.
 
Here's another good one where where less than lethal force was used. However my dept has trained us to go with the minimum force needed to get some one to comply.

1.Verbal command, 2. empty hand 3.Pepper spray 4.Expandable batton and last resort Deadly force with a gun.

If someone steps up the ante so are we authorized to do so as well.

but refusing to put a knife down and acting toward an officer will as likely get u shot as if you were carrying an ak47 and pointing it to someone. I remember seeing a video i think in Peru of about 6 to 7 officers trying to get a guy to drop a steak knife as well the guy charged and all officers were caught off guard and he managed to stab like 3 guys very badly before he was shot. So situational awareness always shall be present.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?eurl=h...n-police-deal-with-man-who.html&v=4zfZSyEO230
 
not meant as a political commentary but

someone calls 911 and says "I'm going to kill myself".

Why respond? If you don't, it's not like the police will be held liable ( we're not entitled to a personal level of protection ).

Seriously, they're calling for more reasons than to end their life. Would this make the situation better (no more S.B.C.) or worse, compel the to seek attention in other ways?


Now obviously this specific instance was different, he also threatened to kill others.
 
Lee Lapin said: AOJ versus ADEE . . . people who are sworn LEOs are duty-bound to confront situations that armed citizens are not. The best presentation I have heard on the issue was Skip Gochenour's two-hour briefing . . .

Lee,

The only people I've heard discuss ADEE as the justification model are us at Study Group, and those who know Skip and have heard his views on it.

Everyone else believes in AOJ (P), which was developed for the Peace Officer. Most folks hearing the justification model in their training get taught AOJ (P). I'm not persuaded of its appropriateness, but that's been the trend over the past decade or two.
 
I often carry spray and/or an impact weapon in addition to my CC weapon as a "civilian". While not convinced initally by Jeff's rationale in the original thread, I now am strongly reconsidering this practice based on the case he posted.

Lee's quote got me thinking along another line though.

.... people who are sworn LEOs are duty-bound to confront situations that armed citizens are not.

It is my perception that many plainclothes' and most off duty LEO's do not carry any thing other then a weapon and cuffs. (I stress that this is a perception only). I'd be curious to know what the policy would be for one of these officers in this situation, as opposed to a "geared up" uniformed guy? Given that I think the Denver court got this one right, I'm not so sure that it would be treated the same way in an LA for example. Are non-uniformed LEO's at greater legal risk if they are "duty bound to confront" without COF options?
 
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