MedWheeler
Member
I'm betting there will be a mod along soon with something along the lines of "I think this one is done"...
(...and, no, I'm not gonna be the one to fetch him.)
(...and, no, I'm not gonna be the one to fetch him.)
An interesting story at the doctors office
- Thread starter gspn
- Start date
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Cocked & Locked
Member
Yep, I'm thinking you're right
cslinger
Member
3 thoughts, not knowing all the details of course.
1-why the hell would you carry any gun in your pocket without a holster. Hell I use a holster with a double action only Jframe with the aforementioned 12 lb pull. Carrying in a pocket with ANYTHING ELSE much less keys like above seems like pure irresponsible folly.
2-Glocks get called out for a lot of things (NDs,KBs etc.). I believe this less about the design and more about the fact that statistically there are like a bazillion of them out there in LE hands, law abiding citizen hands, criminal hands, novice hands etc. Glocks have become ubiquitous and frankly are what a pistol is to many folks. I know folks who say Glock interchangeably with the word pistol, like saying I'll have a Coke for any soda you are ordering.
If the great majority of the nation drove Ford mustangs I bet the great majority of accidents would be in mustangs, car-b-qs on the side of the road, probably a mustang.
3-As for re-holstering (under pressure)........
XD- better remember to loosen your grip
1911/other SAO guns - better Remember to put that safety on
DA/SA - better remember to de-cock
Striker - better remember to clear obstructions
Frankly unless it's double action only with a heavy trigger you have got to pick your poison and not only train but understand the downsides. Even a DAO revolver, arguably the safest weapon especially for a novice, could still hang up on an opstruction and Fire even though it might be less likely.
Guns are dangerous. They are supposed to be. Respect that fact at ALL times whether they are your "toys" or your serious social interaction deterrent.
1-why the hell would you carry any gun in your pocket without a holster. Hell I use a holster with a double action only Jframe with the aforementioned 12 lb pull. Carrying in a pocket with ANYTHING ELSE much less keys like above seems like pure irresponsible folly.
2-Glocks get called out for a lot of things (NDs,KBs etc.). I believe this less about the design and more about the fact that statistically there are like a bazillion of them out there in LE hands, law abiding citizen hands, criminal hands, novice hands etc. Glocks have become ubiquitous and frankly are what a pistol is to many folks. I know folks who say Glock interchangeably with the word pistol, like saying I'll have a Coke for any soda you are ordering.
If the great majority of the nation drove Ford mustangs I bet the great majority of accidents would be in mustangs, car-b-qs on the side of the road, probably a mustang.
3-As for re-holstering (under pressure)........
XD- better remember to loosen your grip
1911/other SAO guns - better Remember to put that safety on
DA/SA - better remember to de-cock
Striker - better remember to clear obstructions
Frankly unless it's double action only with a heavy trigger you have got to pick your poison and not only train but understand the downsides. Even a DAO revolver, arguably the safest weapon especially for a novice, could still hang up on an opstruction and Fire even though it might be less likely.
Guns are dangerous. They are supposed to be. Respect that fact at ALL times whether they are your "toys" or your serious social interaction deterrent.
Fingers aren't the only thing that can get into a trigger guard when said trigger guard is unprotected.
Onward Allusion
Member
Holy crap. I can't believe some of the posts. Blame the gun and not the idiot mentality. Kinda like the blame the gun and not the criminal, eh? Anyone see the similarity?
Bottom line is that if you're gonna pocket carry, do so in a good pocket holster that hasn't been the worst for wear (i.e. the trigger isn't crimped from use due one's fat butt or tight pants) and don't carry other crap in the same pocket. If you can't afford a good pocket holster, then carry with an empty chamber. Personally, I wouldn't pocket carry a DAO revolver w/o a pocket holster.
Bottom line is that if you're gonna pocket carry, do so in a good pocket holster that hasn't been the worst for wear (i.e. the trigger isn't crimped from use due one's fat butt or tight pants) and don't carry other crap in the same pocket. If you can't afford a good pocket holster, then carry with an empty chamber. Personally, I wouldn't pocket carry a DAO revolver w/o a pocket holster.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I think you're misinterpreting some people's posts. They aren't "blaming the gun," they're pointing out that some guns require special precautions. In the case of the Glock, for example, getting anything (say, a fold of your sweat shirt) into the holster along with the gun can result in an ND.
Not a valid comparison. Seat belts & airbags are not designed to prevent a car from starting. A grip safety is designed to prevent a gun from firing.
WardenWolf
member
Remove the parking brake from a car and just tell the buyers to not park on an incline. See how well that goes over. Sure, the rollaway problem can be avoided if you "park correctly", but it shouldn't BE a problem and every other vehicle on the market has a means of preventing it.
Preventative safety features, both vehicle and firearm, exist for a reason. I'm pretty sure a manufacturer wouldn't be allowed to sell a vehicle nowadays without a parking brake. And, technically, a gun manufacturer isn't allowed to sell a new firearm without a safety device. Unfortunately, the ATF made a gross mistake in classifying the Glock's hinged trigger as a safety device, thereby clearing the way for a whole generation of firearms that are significantly less safe to carry than the ones that came before.
Preventative safety features, both vehicle and firearm, exist for a reason. I'm pretty sure a manufacturer wouldn't be allowed to sell a vehicle nowadays without a parking brake. And, technically, a gun manufacturer isn't allowed to sell a new firearm without a safety device. Unfortunately, the ATF made a gross mistake in classifying the Glock's hinged trigger as a safety device, thereby clearing the way for a whole generation of firearms that are significantly less safe to carry than the ones that came before.
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Old Dog
Member
So I think the moral of the story here is use a proper holster. We had a case a few years ago where a local gangbanger bled out and was DRT after attempting to place his Glock in his waistband, with finger on trigger, gun discharged, femoral artery hit.
One of my officers a few years back had an ND, was wearing a North Face shell under his duty parka, the little string (waist tightener) with the plastic thingie on it fell into his Safariland ALS holster, as he holster his (striker-fired, no external safety) pistol, predictably the thingie went into the trigger guard and the pistol discharged as he was pushing the pistol down (leg graze, pants ruined) ... some of you have seen the numerous training bulletins issued resultant to such discharges.
Do the Glock fans have some type of instant alert (texts? emails?) system that they get when Glocks are being commented upon on the internet? Always fascinating to see how soon, and how many, leap forth to defend the honor of Glock Perfection. (No, I don't believe it's the gun, as I said, holster, holster, holster ...)
One of my officers a few years back had an ND, was wearing a North Face shell under his duty parka, the little string (waist tightener) with the plastic thingie on it fell into his Safariland ALS holster, as he holster his (striker-fired, no external safety) pistol, predictably the thingie went into the trigger guard and the pistol discharged as he was pushing the pistol down (leg graze, pants ruined) ... some of you have seen the numerous training bulletins issued resultant to such discharges.
Do the Glock fans have some type of instant alert (texts? emails?) system that they get when Glocks are being commented upon on the internet? Always fascinating to see how soon, and how many, leap forth to defend the honor of Glock Perfection. (No, I don't believe it's the gun, as I said, holster, holster, holster ...)
Jesse H
Member
Ah, so you haven't detail stripped a Glock or bothered to learn about the platform before ranting about it. Your belief that the plastic hinge is the only thing preventing a Glock from firing.
Like I already said, it's not the best platform in the world, but it's popular for a few reasons. If you're careless or not comfortable carrying a striker fired weapon without a manual safety, don't.
But also don't share ignorant comments about things.
WardenWolf
member
Drop safe != functionally safe. There's a huge difference, and you know it. Just because my car has airbags in case I crash doesn't mean it also doesn't need brakes to help me keep from crashing. Not saying a person should rely on their safety, but there should be a way to render a loaded firearm safe so that an unintended trigger pull will not necessarily discharge it.
If you drop a Glock and a rock or branch snags the trigger, it discharges. If you drop a series 80 1911, Springfield XD, or countless other pistols that have an operational and utilized safety device, it doesn't.
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Please...please...tell us what handgun is missing something that every other handgun on the market has.
We're all ears.
WardenWolf
member
With the exception of the non-safety version of the M&P, all other modern pistols have at least SOME safety device to protect against unintended actuation of the trigger. The XD has the grip safety, and all others have some combination of either a grip safety, manual safety, or a heavy double action trigger. Only the Glock and M&P have NO protections against unintended trigger actuation.
The Glock and M&P are unique in that they're single-action semi-automatic pistols without ANYTHING preventing accidental trigger actuation.
Nope...not even close to true.
Heck, there are even striker fired pistols with no manual safety, a trigger as light as a Glock's, and no middle-of-the-trigger protrusion safety either!
Here are two I personally own. Please explain what they have to prevent unintended trigger actuation that the Glock does not have.
WardenWolf
member
Warp, those certainly appear to have frame-mounted manual safeties to me.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
WardenWolf, your parking brake analogy is straw man argument. Your argument that everything else without a manual safety has a heavy DA trigger ignores SIG DAK, HK LEM, and 3rd Gen S&W DAO triggers. They all partially pre-tension the mainspring and drop the trigger pull weight down to within a pound of a Glock's stock trigger pull weight. There's no manual safety on those pistols either.
Jesse H
Member
That's a slide lock and take down lever.
Again, ignorance.
Again, ignorance.
You are wrong. They do not. Here they are again. There are MANY more I could show or list, but I'll stick to these two since it only takes one to disprove your statement, and I own both of these pistol models myself
WardenWolf
member
Delude yourselves all you want. But Glocks started a slippery slope and many of the currently carried pistols are far more likely to have an unintended discharge than the ones that came before.
At least we are in agreement that MANY handguns out there function exactly the same as Glocks in this regard.
This type of pistol (striker fired, 5-6 lb-ish trigger, no manual safeties) is almost surely the most popular type of pistol in the market today. They are everywhere doing everything.
Why? Because it is what people want. Big time.
It is beyond silly to claim that Glock is the only such gun on the market. They freaking wish they had that entire market segment to themselves.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Okay, what IS it you have to do to make a Glock fire, other than depressing the "plastic hinge" and continuing to put pressure on the trigger?
It's all about simple risk management.
Carry, with a loaded chamber, a striker fired firearm that can be fired simply by pulling the trigger, and you risk an unintentional discharge. That need not be caused by a finger. It does not matter one whit that the discharge would be due to operator error.
Carry, with a loaded chamber, a firearm that has a safety device that requires a separate movement to disengage a safety, and you risk being too late in firing.
Carry with an empty chamber and you risk being too late in firing.
The likelihood of these risks vary, but in each scenario, the potential consequences could be very severe indeed.
There are at least two ways that I know of to mitigate these risks without going to a particularly long and heavy trigger pull:
I have chosen the latter.
Of course, a longer, heavier trigger could help in some ways, and contribute other problems. A DA only revolver has its advantages and disadvantages.
Carry, with a loaded chamber, a striker fired firearm that can be fired simply by pulling the trigger, and you risk an unintentional discharge. That need not be caused by a finger. It does not matter one whit that the discharge would be due to operator error.
Carry, with a loaded chamber, a firearm that has a safety device that requires a separate movement to disengage a safety, and you risk being too late in firing.
Carry with an empty chamber and you risk being too late in firing.
The likelihood of these risks vary, but in each scenario, the potential consequences could be very severe indeed.
There are at least two ways that I know of to mitigate these risks without going to a particularly long and heavy trigger pull:
- Carry a firearm that is desinged so tht theoperation of the separate safety involves an extremely natural movoment that is essentially part of drawing and presentation. A good 1911 comes closest. That would mitigate the risk of delay to some extent.
- Carry a firearm with a grip safety.
I have chosen the latter.
Of course, a longer, heavier trigger could help in some ways, and contribute other problems. A DA only revolver has its advantages and disadvantages.
Of course, most of the top competitors in the practical shooting sports that emphasize speed use SA-only, safety-equipped guns in the divisions that allow them. Once you learn how to use them, a 1911-type frame-mounted, down-to-fire, ride-it-while-firing safety adds ZERO time and ZERO "manipulation."
Some people don't want to be bothered with the learning, which takes maybe a couple hundred draws to completely ingrain. For those people, there are Glocks and such.
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