Analysis of a reloading failure

[nofishbob]

Over the weekend I had a major failure of some of my light .357 reloads.

I stuck three 158gr Hornady XTPs in a S&W 27-2 and one in a Dan Wesson 15.

Both revolvers have 6" barrels.

The loads were in .357 brass with CCI SPM primers as follows:

-4.0gr Trailboss..This load worked great in the DW the week before so I loaded 100 of them
-4.0gr W231 (30 rounds)
-4.3gr W231 (30 rounds)
-4.6gr W231 (40 rounds)

My 14 year old daughter was the primary shooter. The results for her were, in the order she shot them:

-4.3gr W231 (30 rounds) nice and accurate, a keeper
-4.0gr Trailboss very good, accuracy just ok shot around 50
-4.6gr W231 ( shot 20 rounds)about the same as the 4.3, not better
-4.0gr W231 (shot 10 rounds) not so accurate, getting tired.

At this point, I took over to shoot the S&W for myself for the first time.

Shot the 4.6gr W231 -it was unremarkable, I was mostly thinking about the gun.

Then I shot the 4.0 Trailboss accuracy was not there. How really bad the accuracy was should have been a red flag.

I finally shot the 4.0 W231 and result was three bullets stuck in the bore. The poor accuracy of the previous loads lulled me into not verifying that there were new holes in the already shot up targets. The sound of these shots was not different enough to notice.

Totally upset now, I scratched the 4.0gr W231 load from my log book, and put away the S&W.

I still had plenty of the Trailboss 4.0gr loads left, so I fired some in the DW. Accuracy was horrible, and in the first cylinder I stuck a bullet in the barrel, right at the crown. I am a slow learner, but I was not going to repeat the multiple bullets lodged in the S&W.

After the self disgust settled down, and I was cleaning up, I found two bullets stuck in the paper target. They must have just had enough oomf to exit the barrel.

When I got home I broke down all of the remaining rounds and weighed the charges. All were within the variance of about 0.1 grains. None were significantly undercharged.

Here are the theories that I have for the above events:

1- I undercharged some of the rounds, and I was unlucky enough to shoot them all.

2- The SPM primers and .357 cases are combining to give erratic ignition, again only when I am shooting.

3-The position of the powder in the case is causing rounds that are at the lower limit to cross over the line into unacceptable power levels. My daughter has trouble cocking the revolvers and tilts them up while cocking. I remind her to keep her finger off the trigger and not to tilt the gun up to point over the berm. I do not do this, and as I think about it I actually tilt the gun down slightly while cocking it.

What would you think of the above? I have decided to only use lead bullets for light loads from now on as getting the bullets out of the S&W has turned into a nightmare. I have a thread in Gunsmithing about those woes.

Thanks!

Bob

 

[RandyP]

Sounds like you were extremely lucky that neither you nor your daughter lost any body parts. Are you saying that you fired three shots in a row and none of the bullets left the barrel? Seems to me that the pistol should have blown up a barrel somewhere in that process?

I don't have a manual handy. Is 4 gr of Win 231 below minimum or something? What powder dispenser/scale do you use to verify your loads?

 

[Jim Watson]

I pick Door No 3. Your daughter is getting your underloads of powder against the primer as she wheels the gun to cock. You don't

No 1 is statistically unlikely, No 2 is a contradiction, the magnum primers ought to make up for the excess volume of the magnum case loaded with special powder charges.

The real problem is underloads with jacketed bullets.
A guy here managed to shoot the core out of a JSP with a light load, leaving the jacket in the bore. The core actually hit the target and good ear protection kept him from hearing any difference in sound, so he kept shooting. He only found the bulge in his barrel when cleaning. We went back and dug in the berm behind his target stand and found all the pieces, core, jacket, and pusher bullet with its nose molded to the shape of the indented loose jacket.

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks for the replies.

RandyP-

Hogdon lists 3.8gr to 4.1gr for this bullet in a .38 case and a SP primer. I was using a .357 case (lower pressure) and a SPM primer (higher pressure). I thought, incorrectly it turned out, that 4.0gr would be a workable, light load.

I confirmed the loads on an RCBS 1500 electric scale and a Dillon beam scale. An event like this makes you doubt everything.

I think what saved me from a catastrophe is that these are really light loads, and the S&W 27 is a relatively stout revolver.

Bob

 

[steve4102]

Hogdon lists 3.8gr to 4.1gr for this bullet in a .38 case and a SP primer. I was using a .357 case (lower pressure) and a SPM primer (higher pressure)

If you were using a 357 case, why would you use 38 Special load data? If it's a 357 case, it's a 357 round and you should use 357 data.

Hodgdon data for the 357 is a "Start" charge of 6.2gr, 231.

 

[Slamfire]

Recently in a Handloader Magazine, the author claimed that 158 jacketed bullets stuck in 38 Specials and would not recommend any loads.

I have never had that happen, but clearly here is an example of jacketed bullets sticking at low velocity.

Let me recommend, if you want accuracy, low velocity and low recoiling, use this classic bullseye pistol load:


Colt Python 6" Barrel

24 Sept 1999 T = 78 ° F
148 gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases CCI500
24 Sept 1999 T = 78 ° F

Ave Vel = 710
Std Dev = 18
ES = 72.02
High = 746.1
Low = 674
N = 32

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks, steve4102-

It is accepted practice to load .357 cases to .38 velocity in order to only have one size case to work with for both .357 and .38 velocities.

I cannot be an authority on this because obviously it did not work for me here.

I have loaded thousands of .357 cases to .38 velocities with lead bullets with great results in snub nose revolvers. The combination of jacketed bullets and 6" barrels seems to have bit me here.

Bob

 

[Blue68f100]

You #3 is the most likely cause. An Option would be to use a packing to hold the powder at the base so it does not shift around.

You do need to put a squid removal kit in you range box.

 

[gamestalker]

STOP! STOP! STOP!
Loading .357 cases to 38 spcl. velocities is not the same thing as loading with published .357 data that produces 38 spcl. velocities. Thank God you or your daughter didn't get seriously hurt! You need to reconsider your approach to hand loading. You can't just load with pie in th sky data not published and SAAMI approved. Jacketed bullets require enough pressure to safely function. Even if they are making it out of the barrel doesn't mean they are functioning within safe operating pressures.
I have been loading for more than 30 years and have never stuck a bullet. Why? Because I only use published data for the cartidge I am loading. Lead data and jacketed data are two completely different worlds, never the two shall meet.
I really need to log off for now before I say something I'll regret about those using unsafe reloading practices.

 

[4895]

I don't work outside the load book range (within reason). Whenever you deviate from a known standard, you tend to ask for trouble. Problem is you used LEAD load data for JACKETED XTP bullets. Check Hodgdon website, start load 6.1 grains 231 is what they APPROVE for that bullet. You are lucky your daughter wasn't harmed with ammunition you assembled that was out of book spec. Double check your data or get good health insurance. Problem solved.

 

[4895]

If you want to teach your 14 year old daughter to shoot a .357 magnum, buy some 125 grain XTP pills and load .357 mag cases with magnum primers and 21.0 grains of H110. Give a Heavy roll crimp and enjoy the show.

 

[rcmodel]

An Option would be to use a packing to hold the powder at the base so it does not shift around.

A better option would be to stop screwing around with too light loads before you mess up another gun.
Use published Start load data for the bullet type you are using!

If you want .22 recoil, shoot a .22!

Sorry to come across as harsh.
But that's just the way it is.

rc

 

[Batta]

I agree with RC Don't mess with loading to light it's dangerous business. And if you want to load light use .38spl brass. There is alot less air that way. I have had good success loading light 158gr. W231 powder in .38 brass. I think if you go that rout you will have less recoil with published loads.

 

[steve4102]

STOP! STOP! STOP!
Loading .357 cases to 38 spcl. velocities is not the same thing as loading with published .357 data that produces 38 spcl. velocities.

Thanks GS, that is what I was trying to say, you did a much better job.

 

[243winxb]

Deleted

 

[nofishbob]

Thanks for the replies. I know I was wrong. Physics don't lie.

What bothers me is that I actually had a rational for what I did.

Hogdon lists W231 at 3.8gr to 4.3gr for 38 special cases with the Hornady 158gr XTP.

My assumption, now proven incorrect, was that the larger .357 case would require bumping the starting load up slightly, hence the 4.0gr start. Adding SPM primers bolstered my confidence that I was at a safe starting load. Again, this was proven to be wrong.

My focus had always being below a safe pressure maximum, so having a below minimum pressure cause problems was not something that I worried about. Before this at least.

The consensus of the replies is that I was negligent in loading below published loads for .357. In other words, in order to achieve .38 velocities you must use .38 cases.

You guys are all over me for making up my own loads by adding a fudge factor to a light .38 load to come up with an equivalent load in a .357 case. I really thought this was accepted practice.

So are you all going to tell me that I must load .357 cases to .357 min load data (6.2gr at 1108 fps) which far exceeds .38 special+P velocity just to get the bullets safely out of the barrel?

Bob

 

[kelbro]

So are you all going to tell me that I must load .357 cases to .357 min load data (6.2gr at 1108 fps) which far exceeds .38 special+P velocity just to get the bullets safely out of the barrel?

That question (along with the original post) tells me that you should probably consider buying your ammo.

 

[243winxb]

A jacketed bullet needs to be going around 750 fps to clear the barrel. But its been shown that this is not even fast enough for a long rifle barrel with some heavy for caliber bullets. 38special - 180gr jacketed in a rifle at maximum did not clear the barrel in 1 post here. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513183 And it could be repeated, over & over. Your mistake was using 38 spec. data in loading a 357 case, as you now know. Live and learn.

 

[nofishbob]

That question (along with the original post) tells me that you should probably consider buying your ammo.

Please cut down on the condescending replies. Maybe this is a little too subtle for you to grasp: I was below a safe load. The position of the powder in the case reduced the velocity enough to cause a failure.

See this thread where .38 loads in .357 cases is discussed and generally approved. Notice Walkalong's post number 4,
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=481070&highlight=38+357

See post number 15 here for a discussion of the position sensitivity of W231 in light loads:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=481070&highlight=38+357

See RCmodel's post number 7 here on .38 loads in .357 brass:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=619543&highlight=38+357

Come on! I did not just pull this idea out of my rear!

You can Google up dozens of similar threads on many forums if you want.

My load did not work.

The idea of loading .38 Special loads in .357 cases is not new and not controversial.

I learned a hard lesson to only use lead bullets for these loads, and to be more aware of the possibility of stuck bullets.

Bob

 

[donny640]

I do not undercharge my reloads. Glad you and your daughter were not harmed. With reloading there is always a chance for mistakes, that is why I always check my reloads before anyone including by daughter shoots them.

 

[4895]

If low velocity is what you are looking for, I would scour the powder manufacturers websites, or reload manuals, or whatever reputable sources you can find. TRAIL BOSS for instance, offers low velocity in lead bullets designs.

243winxb is correct that jacketed and semi-jacketed bullets need velocity above 750fps for consistent jacket retention (Lyman reload manual states this). You won't have reliable, safe, jacketed ammunition below that threshold.

An alternative to lead is to use plated bullets (cleaner than lead, no smoke, no fouling) in a .357 magnum case with win231 powder at .357 mag levels between lead and jacketed speeds. Berry's plated bullets, and others, will work fine for what you are looking for. They are not jacketed so you need to be mindful of top speeds, but low velocity will be fine and they are cleaner than lead.

I would reserve the XTP bullets for other purposes. I know, I know, I shoot them as target too, they are spendy, but they really are a premium bullet meant for full house magnum loads.

I don't know if you have any load books, but they are a necessity. We all make mistakes and typos are too common. Have fun.

 

[murf]

don't assume we are just talking to you, nofishbob. every one here is trying to get the point across that light loads with heavy jacketed bullets is a recipe for disaster.

i'm glad no one was hurt. sad that your m-27 barrel is probably junk. glad you understand what is going on.

still think you miss the point. don't trust google info. don't trust internet load data. trust RELOADING MANUAL load data for the cartridge you are reloading.

be safe,

murf

 

[kelbro]

Please cut down on the condescending replies. Maybe this is a little too subtle for you to grasp: I was below a safe load. The position of the powder in the case reduced the velocity enough to cause a failure.

There was a little subtlety that you must not have grasped in the threads that you referenced. Those threads were discussing LEAD bullets. You took it upon yourself to transfer that data to a jacketed bullet which any reloading manual warns against.

Loads listed on websites will not be trialed by my daughter.

Websites are not a replacement for reloading manuals.

Try not to take it too hard but I stand by my previous recommendation.

 

[kingmt]

You said you used 38spl data. Did you use all the data including the COL? If you used a 357 magnum COL then your pressure was lower then that of a 38spl. The deeper you seat the bullet the higher the pressure. You can load 357 cases to 38 data & it is just a 38.

 

[nofishbob]

Kelbro- I get it. I know what I did was wrong.

But oversimplifying the situation and making it personal is counterproductive.

Note that none of the 100 (plus or minus) rounds fired by my daughter stuck in the barrel, and accuracy ranged from excellent to mediocre.

It is the position sensitivity that that I experienced while shooting that I thought would make for an interesting topic.

You took it upon yourself to transfer that data to a jacketed bullet which any reloading manual warns against.

I did not transfer data from these threads. I listed them to show that loading 38 loads in .357 cases was not something I thought up for myself.

Loads listed on websites will not be trialed by my daughter

That is reassuring. Please note that I did not use website loads, either. I referenced Hogdon because everyone can access their data to confirm what I listed.

Websites are not a replacement for reloading manuals.

This is true -again, I did not list those threads for the loads they were discussing, but for the concept of loading 38 loads in .357 cases.

Bob