Range Report

[Tim A Marcia]

Today I shot 4 load work-ups.

4.0gr. HP-38 124gr. Berry's Plated RN 1.150 OAL w/.378 crimp
4.1gr. "
4.2gr. "
4.3gr. "

My 3" XD loved the 124gr bullet!
My 3" EMP not so much! It seemed to prefer some 147gr. I just had along for the ride.

XD = 4.0gr 2" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.1gr 1" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.2gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.3gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function

EMP =4.0gr 6" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.1gr 8" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.2gr 4" group @ 10 yards/No hold open one time
4.3gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function

EMP with 147gr Berry's Plated RN 3.4gr HP-38 1.120 OAL shot 2" group @ 10 yards

This was all shot off-hand. I'm not sure how to interpret this data.
I had fun though!!! Suggestions???

 

[PapaG]

Groups offhand say more about your ability than the ammo's accuracy. If you are trying for accuracy testing of the ammo you need to bench it.
If you are an Olympic class pistol shooter I apologize and say go for it.

 

[Walkalong]

Looks like 4.1 or 4.2 to me. Load more of each, shoot some groups, see how they do.

My EMP liked 124 Gr bullets much better than 115, but it took me a bit to learn to shoot it well, despite having shot 1911s all my life.

I carry a P-365 now and the EMP lives at my younger sons house.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

All this offhand shooting shows is that you shot the XD better than the EMP this particular go round. Is this normal? Do you normally shoot the XD better with factory rounds?

When I test pistols for accuracy I have a plastic table in front of me with a rolled up towel for a rest and I get down on my knees to try and be as solid as possible.

Good trigger control is critical during accuracy testing. You can't be jabbing the trigger. Deep breath, slow exhale, focused like a lazer on pulling that trigger slowly and straight to the rear.

 

[LiveLife]

I agree with others that accuracy testing should be done while resting the pistol and I would recommend range testing be repeated.

PM sent regarding OAL and powder work up.

When I did not have anything available, I used small ice chest to steady my hands. This group verified in person by member Dudedog was shot resting bottom of my hands on the small ice chest on top of range lane tray (When my eye sight was better) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-4#post-9646469

This recent group was shot using Caldwell Pistolero rest on top of the truck tailgate (After diagnosis of glaucoma and cataract in non-shooting eye - Yes, choose your parents carefully)

 

[kmw1954]

When I load the 124gr Berry's RN with HP-38 I am at the 4.2gr level because that is what naturally drops from a cavity on my Lee Auto Disk measure. And from shooting a lot of those bullets loaded at 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 I couldn't see any discernible difference in performance so I just stuck with the 4.2gr.. And I am more than happy with it in 4 different guns.

I now many say you cannot judge by off-hand shooting yet I do it. I shoot pretty consistently off handed. enough to know what is accurate and what is not. Examples; Working up a load for a 380 auto using a 100gr. bullet. I had 3 loads that the only change was the powder brand, but all were loaded to the stating load. One powder out shout the other three and one powder was so bad that I didn't even load anymore of those. I did load up more of the other two and worked them up the ladder. Even offhanded the one powder was more accurate and consistent than the other even shooting off hand and remained that way during multiple tests.

Next I also just did a test firing of a new cast 45acp bullet. Same bullet fired in 2 different guns. One was on target and the other was no where near. Didn't need a rest to figure that out.

I guess I have a lower standard than most. I shoot all handguns and I do not know anyone that Bench Rest shoots handguns. I want to know how a gun and bullet is going to perform and react when fired from my unsupported hand. Just like what is expected in a self defense situation. I don't care that a gun and bullet can shoot 1/2" groups if I cannot control it.

 

[LiveLife]

I guess I have a lower standard than most. I shoot all handguns and I do not know anyone that Bench Rest shoots handguns. I want to know how a gun and bullet is going to perform and react when fired from my unsupported hand. Just like what is expected in a self defense situation. I don't care that a gun and bullet can shoot 1/2" groups if I cannot control it.

You make a very good point.

While I test my pistol loads resting on sandbags or pistol rest to determine the "mechanical" accuracy of the load, I also like to test offhand, especially fast follow ups or double taps to evaluate "felt recoil" or recoil impulse as a particular load may be accurate shot off rest but produces recoil impulse/shock that is uncomfortable or not desirable.

When I shot USPSA, although there were other powders that produced slightly greater accuracy, I ended up using slower burning W231/HP-38/WSF for most 9mm/40S&W loads that produced softer less harsh felt recoil that allowed me to bring the front sight back on target quicker, which translated to faster stage times.

 

[1KPerDay]

Today I shot 4 load work-ups.

4.0gr. HP-38 124gr. Berry's Plated RN 1.150 OAL w/.378 crimp
4.1gr. "
4.2gr. "
4.3gr. "

My 3" XD loved the 124gr bullet!
My 3" EMP not so much! It seemed to prefer some 147gr. I just had along for the ride.

XD = 4.0gr 2" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.1gr 1" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.2gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.3gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function

EMP =4.0gr 6" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.1gr 8" group @ 10 yards/good function
4.2gr 4" group @ 10 yards/No hold open one time
4.3gr 4" group @ 10 yards/good function

EMP with 147gr Berry's Plated RN 3.4gr HP-38 1.120 OAL shot 2" group @ 10 yards

This was all shot off-hand. I'm not sure how to interpret this data.
I had fun though!!! Suggestions???

You had fun and that's all that matters. I'm in the camp of those that feel you will not learn much of anything meaningful shooting offhand, and not much of anything useful shooting one group each with .1 gr increments. The difference between a 1" group at 4.1 grains and a 4" group at 4.2 grains is complete chance. You could shoot another group at 4.2 grains and shoot a 1" group.

If you're working up loads to develop best accuracy, then yes, you should bench rest it or ideally ransom rest it (I realize this is usually a pipe dream for most of us). And shoot several groups per load, and shoot 10-shot groups.

But I almost never do this.

 

[sparkyv]

Tim A Marcia, how many rounds in each group? I shoot 5.



Same for me at 15 yds:

I now many say you cannot judge by off-hand shooting yet I do it. I shoot pretty consistently off handed. enough to know what is accurate and what is not.

When I come across a decent off hand group, then I load up and test rested at 25yds.

 

[35 Whelen]

I mostly suck at shooting from a bench, so I completely agree with testing loads offhand. Forget about group sizes until you're a polished shooter, which if you shoot offhand enough, you will be. The important question is: "Did the bullet go where the sights were when the sear broke?" This, among competitive shooters, is known as "calling your shot" and is a very important principal of good shooting.

These are all offhand groups that likely would have been much smaller if fired by someone who is good at shooting from a rest. But for me, these groups prove that my loads are A-O.K. Points of aim are smudges, dings in the target, etc., which is why the groups aren't necessarily centered.









35W

 

[Jenrick]

For my competition loads shooting PPC with a revolver, I basically start at the longest range I'll shoot in a match (50 yds), with the lightest load. I work my way up until I get a round that groups acceptably shooting it the way it will be shoot in competition (at 50, that's prone). I'll repeat this a few times to verify, and then that's it. Putting the pistol in a Ransom rest may give me a better answer on what round can hold a hard X versus a liner-X, but I know dry fire and live practice will get me a lot more X's than chasing a 1/10" in the reloading room. Now if you are trying for ultimate accuracy, than absolutely a mechanical rest if available is ideal.

I also shoot the olympic disciplines (I'm not good at them, but I enjoy them). I found that any of my guns with in general even the cheapest true target ammo I could find, would shoot well enough in a vice to win me a gold medal if not shoot a possible. So once I figured that out, I stopped chasing a load, and just settled on a lot of dry fire and live practice.

 

[LiveLife]

People, OP is conducting load development with .1 gr increment powder charge loads.

I doubt we are good enough to see the difference on target shooting off hand. The pistol needs to be benched.

BTW, OP is shooting 3" subcompacts!!! That's right, 3" XD/EMP. For many shooters, they will be happy if they could keep all the holes inside a copy paper.

I welcome comments from bullseye match shooters to knock some sense into our brains.

 

[35 Whelen]

People, OP is conducting load development with .1 gr increment powder charge loads.

I doubt we are good enough to see the difference on target shooting off hand. The pistol needs to be benched.

BTW, OP is shooting 3" subcompacts!!! That's right, 3" XD/EMP. For many shooters, they will be happy if they could keep all the holes inside a copy paper.

I welcome comments from bullseye match shooters to knock some sense into our brains.

Same principle, subcompact pistol offhand, the range is just closer. If these offhand groups had been fired from a bench and been a little smaller, would it have really mattered? Not to me.





Another thing I've learned from burning a few thousand pistol primers over the last few years is with well built pistols/revolvers shooting "normal" loads, i.e.- with proper bullets and the correct powder for the job, aren't picky about loads.

35W

 

[rfwobbly]

Congrats !

I got better groups by shortening the OALs up to 1.130" and by using the Berry 124gr Hollow Base RN. Try that.

 

[LiveLife]

Congrats !

I got better groups by shortening the OALs up to 1.130" and by using the Berry 124gr Hollow Base RN. Try that.

 

[LiveLife]

Same principle, subcompact pistol offhand, the range is just closer. If these offhand groups had been fired from a bench and been a little smaller, would it have really mattered? Not to me.

OK, read on.

Many faster burning powders (Like OP's W231/HP-38) have very narrow start/max load range, often around .5 gr.

Below is IMR Target powder work up groups that were shot from 16" carbine with bipod and scope. Notice the accuracy node that formed at mid-range load data? I am not sure if I would have been able to identity that node shooting a pistol off hand - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-vectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/#post-10508215

To translate to pistol testing - Yes, this group was shot off Caldwell Steady Rest, not off hand.

 

[LiveLife]

Tim, Here are some W231/HP-38 groups loaded to my reference 4.8 gr for 115 gr FMJ for comparison (They were all shot with scope and bipod) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ctured-jacketed-bullets.854425/#post-11198351